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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 16:35

rufusbuck wrote:StroBro, don't let reason get in the way of a good emotional outburst. If the sevens players are sacrificing for the Red Jersey, perhaps the Red Jersey can pay them for their efforts rather than asking club players across the country to cover the cost for the Sevens players to fulfill their sporting ambitions. Sevens is a World Rugby ad campaign, let World Rugby pay for it. There is no depth whatsoever in Canadian "elite" rugby, as proven continually by the results of the NSMT. Canada has "sucked" since the dawn of professional rugby, and will continue to decline unless a proper development league is created to produce the hundred pros needed to field a competitive international side.


Praise!

The irony is if Canada had two professional sides playing in MLR or lets say the Pro14, one in Toronto and the other in Vancouver, that drew from the Marshall League and CDI and whose players, when not playing for Toronto Arrows or whatever you would call them, Canada would be far better off.

TheStroBro wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
Did you read anything I wrote? 7s players are worth nothing commercially; therefore, they get paid nothing. Personally I'm not comfortable giving a substantial sum of registration dues so Harry Jones can play rugby. Harry Jones is free to get a job like the rest of us or get good enough to get paid a living wage where they pay people to play rugby.

In other words, Rugby Canada is running a form of welfare and I'm not willing to subsidize it.

I doubt any of the players in Langford are hurting for quid, half went to Shawnigan Lake so that means they have lots of money or their parents do which is how they are able to play rugby for pennies while living in one of the most expensive places in Canada and the world.

Also, Rugby in Uruguay is an upper class sport, so it has a lot more in common with BC than you think.

Read the whole thing and I think it's full of shit. Canada has wasted loads of cash on a centralized program for XVs and can't keep anyone. Of the two seniors Men's coaches, Damian McGrath is the one working with the grassroots and Kingsley just seems to pop in. Can't do that. The realities of Olympic Sport are you can't pay the athlete a lot, which they aren't. What you're now telling them is you're gonna pay them even less so you can bring in 10-15 more guys who won't play any rugby at all. Seriously, CTG players are not playing rugby. They're training, but they're playing no one week to week now. Canada will lose more money from this than they will gain.


What exactly did I say that was full of shit? That Sevens doesn't make any money? That Rugby Canada is using the members dues as welfare money for a select few players?

I am in complete agreement that the CoE is a waste of money. Rugby Canada is addicted to handouts, WR is dictating to Rugby Canada how it should spend the money its given. I think the entire organization needs to be blown up.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 16:49

As soon as this RWC cycle is over, and possibly sooner in some cases, Rugby Canada needs to:

1. Eliminate the centralized 15s player pool and instead encourage these players to play MLR. This frees up funding for either reduced dues, increased 15s team marketing or even increased 7s salaries if that is determined to be the best use of the money.
2. Stop pushing every talented young non-tight 5 player into the 7s player pool unless they are really a 7s specialist.
3. Promote the hell out of the Arrows/MLR to encourage additional investment groups to consider funding MLR sides in Canada. MLR could be a godsend for RC if they don't screw it up.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 16:53

Coloradoan wrote:As soon as this RWC cycle is over, and possibly sooner in some cases, Rugby Canada needs to:

1. Eliminate the centralized 15s player pool and instead encourage these players to play MLR. This frees up funding for either reduced dues, increased 15s team marketing or even increased 7s salaries if that is determined to be the best use of the money.
2. Stop pushing every talented young non-tight 5 player into the 7s player pool unless they are really a 7s specialist.
3. Promote the hell out of the Arrows/MLR to encourage additional investment groups to consider funding MLR sides in Canada. MLR could be a godsend for RC if they don't screw it up.



Want a job as CEO rugby canada?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby therugbycoach » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 17:11

I am in complete agreement that the CoE is a waste of money. Rugby Canada is addicted to handouts, WR is dictating to Rugby Canada how it should spend the money its given. I think the entire organization needs to be blown up.


There is the root of the issue canada faces now...WR dictating, I say Rugby in Canada started to get messed up when they started following IRB reccomendations, mid 2000s . which may have worked for a lot of countries like UK, NZ, etc but they couldnt factor in all the distance, climate, etc, and the DoRs and Coaches they recommended also couldnt get there heads around it, most of these people are yes men with little real rugby experience and couldnt understand why structures and pathways (and other buzz words) dont quite work. like they do in UK where theres 15 teams in 30mile radius and you can play and train 12months a year.

I dont Understand the Center of excellence at all, stick a load of the almost top players, considering the better players are in UK, NZ, EU, USA now, and let them go to the gym, and run about doing drills but not getting pushed by their peers to improve like they would by playing games every week, as per every other national team players in the world.

The irony is if Canada had two professional sides playing in MLR or lets say the Pro14,



In some ways that would alleviate what i say above but im not sure you could find the players in Canada to fill those teams. The really promising players have been spotted and are on top pro contracts in Uk EU etc. Last year the other few better players joined MLR teams. and played better for them than they do for Canada . many of the rest of National team probably wouldn't stand out amonst own club sides, so to expect a sponsor to want to employ them in a squad with little hope of winning is not good business sense.

Most postings so far have some good points for improvement etc but without a complete rebuild of the system and mind sets i can't see anything good happening for Canadian Rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 17:11

That's the rub. They are moving the money from sevens to an idiotic centralized program. It would be a better sell if it was moving to something productive.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 17:50

Did we ever replace Jim Dixon as Director of Rugby/GM? Who's fulfilling that role currently?

Also, funfact, the Rugby Canada board has 18 damn people on it.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 17:54

Ontario Arrows name strong side for Glendale matchup

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/0 ... ale-match/

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 18:10

grande wrote:Did we ever replace Jim Dixon as Director of Rugby/GM? Who's fulfilling that role currently?

Also, funfact, the Rugby Canada board has 18 damn people on it.

No. Pretty much every person let go or fired has had their position eliminated as well.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 20:37

grande wrote:Did we ever replace Jim Dixon as Director of Rugby/GM? Who's fulfilling that role currently?

Also, funfact, the Rugby Canada board has 18 damn people on it.


Another fun fact, USA Rugby has like 2 board members because they all resigned ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby north walian » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 14:37

Tobar wrote:Ontario Arrows name strong side for Glendale matchup

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2018/0 ... ale-match/


Just saw Matt Mullins is 24. Hardly seems to play for the 7s. What a waste of a promising career.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 23:16

therugbycoach wrote:
I am in complete agreement that the CoE is a waste of money. Rugby Canada is addicted to handouts, WR is dictating to Rugby Canada how it should spend the money its given. I think the entire organization needs to be blown up.


There is the root of the issue canada faces now...WR dictating, I say Rugby in Canada started to get messed up when they started following IRB reccomendations, mid 2000s . which may have worked for a lot of countries like UK, NZ, etc but they couldnt factor in all the distance, climate, etc, and the DoRs and Coaches they recommended also couldnt get there heads around it, most of these people are yes men with little real rugby experience and couldnt understand why structures and pathways (and other buzz words) dont quite work. like they do in UK where theres 15 teams in 30mile radius and you can play and train 12months a year.

I dont Understand the Center of excellence at all, stick a load of the almost top players, considering the better players are in UK, NZ, EU, USA now, and let them go to the gym, and run about doing drills but not getting pushed by their peers to improve like they would by playing games every week, as per every other national team players in the world.

The irony is if Canada had two professional sides playing in MLR or lets say the Pro14,



In some ways that would alleviate what i say above but im not sure you could find the players in Canada to fill those teams. The really promising players have been spotted and are on top pro contracts in Uk EU etc. Last year the other few better players joined MLR teams. and played better for them than they do for Canada . many of the rest of National team probably wouldn't stand out amonst own club sides, so to expect a sponsor to want to employ them in a squad with little hope of winning is not good business sense.

Most postings so far have some good points for improvement etc but without a complete rebuild of the system and mind sets i can't see anything good happening for Canadian Rugby


I cannot fathom how World Rugby or Rugby Canada intended to produce high performance men's rugby in Canada without a high performance league. Clearly people at the top knew that a real league was needed in the era of professionalism, which is why SuperLeague was created. Super League was absolutely the wrong format as it was not a development structure and neither was it in any way a viable professional sports product, but it is baffling to me that Super League was killed and then a rump youth-style tournament, CRC, allegedly replaced it. There has literally been nothing done in this country to generate a high performance league that can produce professional rugby players. In the time of professional rugby, U Sport football has added three teams in Quebec, with Laval dominating the game. There has been nothing even remotely resembling that kind of achievement in men's rugby in Canada. There is no system in Canada to rebuild. As to mindsets, I participated in a junior rugby meeting with our home sub-union, in which an RC Board Members was in attendance. I was discussing player safety related to age-grade bands and had brought a report from Scotland about the subject. After I spoke, the RC fellow's response was, "what's a cohort?". These are some genuinely inferior people, and the results show it.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 02:18

I've been saying the same thing for eons and said as much to Tim Powers in an email.

Team sports need sports leagues. It is so mind blowingly obvious and RC has made no progress. To the contrary they've taken the "best" players out of leagues and literally stuck them on am island, killing those players and the leagues they come from.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 12:40

The RCSL obviously had its problems, but a full league of teams playing actual games was such a better format than the CRC. Prior to MLR arriving, I was hoping it would someday/somehow come back as a pro league, but now that MLR is here I think my (ill conceived, ill advised) dream is dead.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 19:32

grande wrote:The RCSL obviously had its problems, but a full league of teams playing actual games was such a better format than the CRC. Prior to MLR arriving, I was hoping it would someday/somehow come back as a pro league, but now that MLR is here I think my (ill conceived, ill advised) dream is dead.



Bring back the RCSL as an U21/23 league. These aged players need greater competition

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 21:44

Rugby Canada should be calling the CIS everyday to get mens rugby in as a varsity sport. 18 to 22 year olds given real competition and access to top tier fitness facilities would do wonders for our national team.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Neptune » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 22:52

ruckovercdn wrote:Rugby Canada should be calling the CIS everyday to get mens rugby in as a varsity sport. 18 to 22 year olds given real competition and access to top tier fitness facilities would do wonders for our national team.


But there is men's rugby in varsities in Canada

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 23:43

Only at OUA, the rest of the country has clubs operating at schools with varying levels of support; UBC operates it like a varsity sport, while UofA got told they not only cant call themselves the Bears, even Cubs is too close.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 05:13

SuperLeague did absolutely nothing to improve the overall game in Canada because it was not a development league. U23 with U25 props and two overage marquee players per team. 12-game regional schedules in divisions structured similarly to U-sport football. Each team with a large player pool in clubs, subject to call-ups. Better athletic prospects would elect to play, producing a better player pool, producing better competition and eventually more and better potential pros. There is no other way.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 14:39

There just aren't enough U23 players to have a proper league to be honest outside of the Uni system. Same issue here...people keep saying we need a U20 club system as an extension from senior clubs...but how many clubs have 22 kids trying to play rugby when it's not an Army team? The youngest median age club I've ever been on was Ft Bliss...in the same town, the El Paso Scorpions was the oldest median age club I've ever been on. So the idea you guys need a U23 league is kind of dumb, what you need a University/College Rugby as a varsity sport. We also need it like that down here and also varsity at the high school level.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 15:27

TheStroBro wrote:There just aren't enough U23 players to have a proper league to be honest outside of the Uni system. Same issue here...people keep saying we need a U20 club system as an extension from senior clubs...but how many clubs have 22 kids trying to play rugby when it's not an Army team? The youngest median age club I've ever been on was Ft Bliss...in the same town, the El Paso Scorpions was the oldest median age club I've ever been on. So the idea you guys need a U23 league is kind of dumb, what you need a University/College Rugby as a varsity sport. We also need it like that down here and also varsity at the high school level.

Your assertion is kind of dumb. There is an eighteen team junior football (U23) league in this country that operates entirely independently of the university league. There is no reason whatsoever that a U23 rugby league could not be established in Canada. There are well-established varsity high school leagues across Canada that could easily feed an eight-team U23 league. Once such a league was established, more high-potential athletes could be recruited to play high school rugby, and more high-potential high school players would elect to play after high school. There are twenty-three varsity high school teams in my city, with many more in surrounding smaller centres. Each spring at least three hundred rugby playing boys leave high school in this region, and the best athletes among them rarely play again after high school. With five years of elligibility after high school, that makes a player pool of fifteen hundred, from which a roster of forty-eight could be recruited. The players are here, and the league model is here. The will at Rugby Canada to establish such a league is not. Have a look at the CHL and the CJHL and try to back your claim that a university league is the only way to develop athletes in Canada.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 17:14

Next to NCAA Football and Basketball, Canadian Junior Hockey is one of the world's best junior development programs of any sport, anywhere. There are so many teams as well. There are over 60 AAA level junior hockey teams in Canada and many many more single A teams.

Best of all, they have found a way to monetize what is essentially a league full of teenagers.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 17:48

Canadian_Rugger wrote:Next to NCAA Football and Basketball, Canadian Junior Hockey is one of the world's best junior development programs of any sport, anywhere. There are so many teams as well. There are over 60 AAA level junior hockey teams in Canada and many many more single A teams.

Best of all, they have found a way to monetize what is essentially a league full of teenagers.

Yeah, but Canada is Hockey.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 19:13

Don't think a u23 league would fly as not enough players.

CHL is instructive as it shows that in a massive geographic area the best bet for team sports is leagues as widespread and high quality as possible as you make the sport accessible to the majority of the country and provide them local-ish competition to minimize travel expenditures. A kid can grow up in Swift Current, never leave, and make it directly to the NHL. Meanwhile in rugby a kid in Toronto has to move to Victoria. What?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 22:24

marvinparsons wrote:Don't think a u23 league would fly as not enough players.

CHL is instructive as it shows that in a massive geographic area the best bet for team sports is leagues as widespread and high quality as possible as you make the sport accessible to the majority of the country and provide them local-ish competition to minimize travel expenditures. A kid can grow up in Swift Current, never leave, and make it directly to the NHL. Meanwhile in rugby a kid in Toronto has to move to Victoria. What?

As I stated quite clearly, in the city and region in which I live at minimum three hundred rugby players leave high school per year. That is a potential player pool of fifteen hundred for one regional team with a five-year elligibility, and again, two extra years for front row. I live in a city with a CJFL team and a U Sports football team, and they do just fine pulling players from essentially the same group of schools that would feed a U23 rugby team. There is another City in my province with a similar player catch pool, home to two CJFL teams and U Sport football team. There are more than enough rugby players here leaving school to produce the ten per year needed for a U23 team. Each year the regions come up with enough players for the crappy, exortively expensive age-grade representative tournaments, so again, the number of players is not the issue. As I also stated, n my city, the best athletes in high school rugby generally do not play after high school. Instead, more or less the same group of players whose parents are willing to flush $2K down the toilet so that their son can play in a single tournament wend their way up to Canada's extremely awful national rep teams. If a real league existed, rather than the miasma of club rugby, I think it very likely that significant numbers of high school players would pursue post-school rugby. Two regional teams in BC, two in Alberta, four in Ontario to begin a league. Much more appealing to kids outside of those regions who have to relocate than going to BC for club rugby. Eventually teams in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec and the East Coast. It is likely that teams will come and go if Junior Football and Hockey are anything to go by, but lack of players is no reason that a highly competitive U23 league could not be operated in this country.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 00:59

marvinparsons wrote:Don't think a u23 league would fly as not enough players.

CHL is instructive as it shows that in a massive geographic area the best bet for team sports is leagues as widespread and high quality as possible as you make the sport accessible to the majority of the country and provide them local-ish competition to minimize travel expenditures. A kid can grow up in Swift Current, never leave, and make it directly to the NHL. Meanwhile in rugby a kid in Toronto has to move to Victoria. What?


:thumbup:

Well put. Raise the quality of coaching... who help kids in not just the hot beds but the nooks and crannies of our rugby community raise their game.

Talent emerges from everywhere in sports, especially in large towns and small cities. The problem with rugby here is many of the outliers never fully understand the game, are too far from selectors/rep teams (and/or can't afford it), raw athletes give up on the sport / don't go far / don't get picked because they aren't as 'talented' or knowledgeable as the kids from good programs who already know what's expected.

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