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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 01:35

How many go to MLR?
Norfolk Harvesters RFC 10-0-0 NRU "B" Division Champions

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby GentsRugger » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 03:38

marvinparsons wrote:
Cole Keith is 21 and he can barely move. That ain't good. Hope I'm wrong, but if you are 21 and can't move you are never going to be a high level rugby player, even at prop. He's just a lump of meat to scrum as far as I can tell.

I'm not trying to be harsh or mean, but many of the players aren't worth paying money to see. The quality isn't much better than club guys I've seen over the years. Like I said I would pay to go to a match, but mostly out of a sense of charity and wanting the MLR to work as opposed to getting a return on my $25.


The Arrows guys aren't much better than club guys you've seen over the years. The same Arrows that defeated Utah Warriors and Glendale Raptors, two MLR teams that have US Eagles that are clearly much better than the average Canadian club player. Those Arrows players? Really hot take. I mean I get the pessimism but, seriously?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 06:54

marvinparsons wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:Hope they succeed.

That said if I happened to be in Toronto I wouldn't consider paying to see a team with Pat Parfrey and Cole Keith on it unless I was feeling charitable and had absolutely nothing else to do.


Jesus...you Canadians are a bitter lot. How about you go down and support them to demonstrate to MLR that when another Canadian bid emerges that they are worthwhile giving them a licence? The more opportunities for Canadian players to compete regularly in a HP environment will do the game no end of good in the long run.


Mate, we've lost to Brazil, Uruguay (twice), barely beat Chile, used to be the ABs to the USA Australia and now can't even compete against them. Poised to not make the RWC for the first time ever. Half are players are suing the union, none of the structures make sense. Lots of reasons to be bitter.

Go down and watch a local club rugby game in NZ or Oz or wherever you are, then watch their seconds team play. Then ask if you'd have paid $25 for the experience.

Cole Keith is 21 and he can barely move. That ain't good. Hope I'm wrong, but if you are 21 and can't move you are never going to be a high level rugby player, even at prop. He's just a lump of meat to scrum as far as I can tell.

I'm not trying to be harsh or mean, but many of the players aren't worth paying money to see. The quality isn't much better than club guys I've seen over the years. Like I said I would pay to go to a match, but mostly out of a sense of charity and wanting the MLR to work as opposed to getting a return on my $25.


No offence but I think that's a pretty spoilt point of view. When rugby or any other spectator sports were developing in the past it wasn't the perceived quality which grew them, it was the tribalism and theatre. I don't think it's fair to look at a league and comepare it to other nations which are much more developed. MLR is not going to grow via the quality of play, that will be a by product of the league succeeding.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 15:34

I'm not really a fan of supporting amateur club rugby with my hard earned cash if there's nothing out there when it comes to experience. So if there's not burgers and brats available I'm not paying admission. Now...Ontario is providing and event experience to you and you're like na...well MLR will need our money to succeed.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby north walian » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 21:17

Looks like nobody told RC Conor Keys is playing for Rotherham!

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 23:03

They had an error on Brock Staller this morning.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 01:21

GentsRugger wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:
Cole Keith is 21 and he can barely move. That ain't good. Hope I'm wrong, but if you are 21 and can't move you are never going to be a high level rugby player, even at prop. He's just a lump of meat to scrum as far as I can tell.

I'm not trying to be harsh or mean, but many of the players aren't worth paying money to see. The quality isn't much better than club guys I've seen over the years. Like I said I would pay to go to a match, but mostly out of a sense of charity and wanting the MLR to work as opposed to getting a return on my $25.


The Arrows guys aren't much better than club guys you've seen over the years. The same Arrows that defeated Utah Warriors and Glendale Raptors, two MLR teams that have US Eagles that are clearly much better than the average Canadian club player. Those Arrows players? Really hot take. I mean I get the pessimism but, seriously?


I didn't say the average club player was equal to the Arrows. I said I've seen club players that are equivalent to the guys suiting up for the Arrows. Seeing as most of the Arrows were recently playing club rugby it isn't exactly a stretch. The USA Eagles insofar as I'm aware are split up across multiple MLR sides.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 01:31

TheStroBro wrote:I'm not really a fan of supporting amateur club rugby with my hard earned cash if there's nothing out there when it comes to experience. So if there's not burgers and brats available I'm not paying admission. Now...Ontario is providing and event experience to you and you're like na...well MLR will need our money to succeed.


Why would you have to pay to support amateur club rugby?

Anyways if people think it is worth their time and money to watch Patrick Parfrey and Cole Keith, that's their prerogative. It wouldn't be a major attraction to me.

Matt Heaton (who I played against in club rugby...) and Connor Keys are apparently in National 1 and it seems like they barely even charge for games.

Again I may well pay but it'd mostly be with the intent of supporting the Arrows in the hopes that their existence raises the standard.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 02:13

There are definitely clubs in America that charge for "parking" to whoever comes to see them play.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 03:14

marvinparsons wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:I'm not really a fan of supporting amateur club rugby with my hard earned cash if there's nothing out there when it comes to experience. So if there's not burgers and brats available I'm not paying admission. Now...Ontario is providing and event experience to you and you're like na...well MLR will need our money to succeed.


Why would you have to pay to support amateur club rugby?

Anyways if people think it is worth their time and money to watch Patrick Parfrey and Cole Keith, that's their prerogative. It wouldn't be a major attraction to me.

Matt Heaton (who I played against in club rugby...) and Connor Keys are apparently in National 1 and it seems like they barely even charge for games.

Again I may well pay but it'd mostly be with the intent of supporting the Arrows in the hopes that their existence raises the standard.


N1 tickets start at £10/match for season tickets for members, and on the door entry Can be anywhere from £15-30. Personally I pay about £20 whenever I go watch my N2S side.

To be honest your top amateur club sides should be charging as well to fund promotional work and match fees for the players. If they did that then perhaps they’d actually get some crowds. Issue is that they haven’t, and set a precedent doing it, so now some people have got ridiculously entitled.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 04:58

Blurandski wrote:
N1 tickets start at £10/match for season tickets for members, and on the door entry Can be anywhere from £15-30. Personally I pay about £20 whenever I go watch my N2S side.

To be honest your top amateur club sides should be charging as well to fund promotional work and match fees for the players. If they did that then perhaps they’d actually get some crowds. Issue is that they haven’t, and set a precedent doing it, so now some people have got ridiculously entitled.

First...no. They're called amateur for a reason. Also, there's no club in the US that has a "stadium" that they own. Blacks and Huns have fields with some bleachers. Saracens are now playing at Starfire. But if there's no food or merch, you can EAD. Also, beer. It's amateur club rugby, it's a hobby, I'm not here to fund your hobby. Now, my club uses a field where we have to pay for parking, so if someone wants to watch that money doesn't come to us at all.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby north walian » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 10:32

marvinparsons wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:I'm not really a fan of supporting amateur club rugby with my hard earned cash if there's nothing out there when it comes to experience. So if there's not burgers and brats available I'm not paying admission. Now...Ontario is providing and event experience to you and you're like na...well MLR will need our money to succeed.


Why would you have to pay to support amateur club rugby?

Anyways if people think it is worth their time and money to watch Patrick Parfrey and Cole Keith, that's their prerogative. It wouldn't be a major attraction to me.

Matt Heaton (who I played against in club rugby...) and Connor Keys are apparently in National 1 and it seems like they barely even charge for games.

Again I may well pay but it'd mostly be with the intent of supporting the Arrows in the hopes that their existence raises the standard.


Think you need to find another sport.

Is'nt the whole idea of professionalism that the standard rises.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 15:48

Dude, I like rugby as much as you do. I hope professionalism generates growth that eventually improves the standard to a point where it is a product that I'd happily pay $50 to watch. Ideally the team would have boatloads of cash and get guys like DTH, Ardron, Hassler and a few foreign guys.

But in the interim the team isn't that good. At least not to where I think it's good value to pay to watch it.

I've flown to watch the RWC, internationals overseas. It's worth it. A 5 hour drive and $100 to watch pat parfrey isn't.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 16:56

marvinparsons wrote:Dude, I like rugby as much as you do. I hope professionalism generates growth that eventually improves the standard to a point where it is a product that I'd happily pay $50 to watch. Ideally the team would have boatloads of cash and get guys like DTH, Ardron, Hassler and a few foreign guys.

But in the interim the team isn't that good. At least not to where I think it's good value to pay to watch it.

I've flown to watch the RWC, internationals overseas. It's worth it. A 5 hour drive and $100 to watch pat parfrey isn't.


Understood about driving 5 hours, but Pat Parfrey was part of the last RWC squad. Would you have torn up your tickets and flown home if he had made the matchday 23?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 16:58

Coloradoan wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:Dude, I like rugby as much as you do. I hope professionalism generates growth that eventually improves the standard to a point where it is a product that I'd happily pay $50 to watch. Ideally the team would have boatloads of cash and get guys like DTH, Ardron, Hassler and a few foreign guys.

But in the interim the team isn't that good. At least not to where I think it's good value to pay to watch it.

I've flown to watch the RWC, internationals overseas. It's worth it. A 5 hour drive and $100 to watch pat parfrey isn't.


Understood about driving 5 hours, but Pat Parfrey was part of the last RWC squad. Would you have torn up your tickets and flown home if he had made the matchday 23?


Some of us may need a little time to think that one over...

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 17:33

Parfrey was the last edition to the team due to injury and a team of him can't beat Russia, Uruguay or any other teams you need to beat to qualify for the RWC. So I will never face the quandary of paying to see a team of Parfrey's at the RWC as they would never qualify.

I paid to see DTH, Ardron, Cudmore, even amateurs who are exciting like Mack/Hiriyama. Not to mention Johnny Sexton and Connor Murray.

Quite a bit different than teams of Pat Parfrey. As we see during the CRC this tier of player only have 50-100 who can be bothered to watch and I think they are free or close to it.

Anyways this is just my own opinion and the hope is that the situation improves where the quality is such that we won't need to have this debate.

There's a reason pro sports leagues are so hard to start. I believe they are even exempt from some anti trust laws. You are basically asking people to pay for what was previously free or close to free.

It's a classic chicken/egg scenario as you aren't going to get something worth paying for without professionalism and the allure of dollars to raise the quality, but the quality isn't going to start high. You need to ride out 5 years or so before there's any hope of that. Hope someone can absorb the losss to get there.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 21:56

marvinparsons wrote:Dude, I like rugby as much as you do. I hope professionalism generates growth that eventually improves the standard to a point where it is a product that I'd happily pay $50 to watch. Ideally the team would have boatloads of cash and get guys like DTH, Ardron, Hassler and a few foreign guys.

But in the interim the team isn't that good. At least not to where I think it's good value to pay to watch it.

I've flown to watch the RWC, internationals overseas. It's worth it. A 5 hour drive and $100 to watch pat parfrey isn't.


5 Hours...that makes so much more sense than the rest of the rhetoric. Yeah, I'm not flying to see the Legion every weekend either.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 07:06

Blurandski wrote:Lads, lets stop feeding the troll, it's fairly obvious that he's not here to engage in any constructive discussion.

Nice grade 8 girls move, Sally. I’m not trolling anybody, I simply don’t agree with the tripe posted here. There is no feeder system in Canada. U23 players with teams located in regions where they live would be at a stage in their lives where they can devote the time required to rugby in a way that most older adults cannot. Club rugby is not a draw for high-potential athletes. A vastly larger player pool, playing at a higher level than club is required to generate adequate numbers of players for Canadian pro teams, which in turn would create a player pool that could support the NSMT. I don’t think MLR is going to succeed because it doesn’t have a big enough pool of good enough players, and none of the butthurt fan-boys on this forum have explained how pro teams will be populated in the absence of high-performance development. Club rugby is never going to fill this void. It won’t attract enough good players. U23 with professional level training demands and providing vastly superior competitive opportunities to club will draw more, better young male rugby players than club rugby. Nobody has explained where the players will come from for these pro teams, because the clubs sure as hell can’t produce more than a tiny number of pros. As I stated previously, a Canadian response to professionalism is required or men’s rugby is going to wither away in Canada, but a long-term national solution to high-performance development is a prerequisite. So far, nothing but vacuous sentiment from you folks on that subject.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 08:59

TheStroBro wrote:
rufusbuck wrote:
What is with the fan-boys and the overwrought emotionality? I don't know that I could get a relevant commentary if I asked "anyone in Seattle", what with Seattle being a major metropolis and the Seawolves drawing 3400 people or so. And that 3400 is not just short of many Premiership teams attendance. It is around half of the attendance of the worst-performing team in the Premiership, in which they play three times as many games. The league isn't good enough for me? I don't think the league will survive because I don't think the caliber of players is very good in terms of a commercial sports entertainment product, and that makes me a dick? What exactly is decent rugby? I've been entertained by competitive girls' high school rugby, but I wouldn't pay a red cent for the experience. I would be very happy to see MLR thrive, but I do not see any reason to expect this to happen until something is done to create a bigger and better player pool.

You're the one being emotional here. You're unwilling to support the Arrows endeavor which is the only group bringing any form of professionalism to Rugby in Canada. Sure, we could bring in crossover athletes and pay them...but that would require the Cubans of the World to foot the bill rather than consortiums of Rugby Folk behind teams in a start up league that has a long look. I'm guessing you haven't seen Lacrosse at all or the MLS 30 years ago. You had players doing Soccer Full Time earning 13k...guess what, you have to work a second job to live on that even then considering the cities the teams were in. You say all these athletes are everywhere, there's definitely a place to play, it's called Senior Club level. You don't need some bullshit U23 Espoir league. What you need is to retain High schoolers that move into trades and college graduates rather than them just shutting it down. Canada and the US truly don't have Rugby Cultures as part of the national fabric. We tend to only have teams in major metropolitan areas, we don't have village rugby teams of hamlets under 30k everywhere. A U23 league is legit worthless if there is no professional league on top of it, not enough players will ever be considered good enough to gain European contracts because Canada is not a Kolpak country. Now...if Rugby Canada returned the CRC back to an 8 week tournament that could be a good start. But even some of those teams don't rely on selection due to true form.

I've already clearly shown that the Arrows are investing in youth rugby with their new Academy, which is in addition to everything’s g that Rugby Ontario does. Rugby Ontario is one of the most well run provincial Unions out there, they have plenty of money and provide numerous High Performance opportunities for players. So, please. tell me about the Nauru rugby team?

Club rugby absolutely will not provide an adequate player pool for the three or four professional teams required in Canada to support a NSMT in the era of professsionalism. You haven’t demonstrated anything beyond a lack of ability to formulate and express a coherent argument. Eight U23 teams playing 12 game seasons in regional conferences with a national championship is a real development league, unlike club rugby, which cannot meet the demands of professionalism. CRC was a joke, always. Rugby in Canada is not the same as rugby in the states. It is much more prevalent in Canada, and there is lots of rugby out in the sticks, not just metro areas. The Eagles are winning against Canada now because their line-up is rife with players who were significantly or completely developed overseas. Canada failed to implement a development system and can’t build a team of eligible immigrants despite their best efforts. The game had a positive and expanding profile twenty years ago, and Rugby Canada in concert with the ITB squandered it.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 19:48

And why would those u23 players play in that league? What's the incentive ?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 19:54

rufusbuck wrote: The Eagles are winning against Canada now because their line-up is rife with players who were significantly or completely developed overseas.


This is hilarious. What an inaccurate statement. So because a handful of guys whom happen to be on the 23 to beat Scotland who were born overseas were on the roster...don't you have nearly as many? No. A significant portion of why you're getting smoked is coaching.

In regards your amateur U23 high performance league with professional training demands? If the players are in said HP environment spending 40 hours a week at the facility, how are they gonna feed themselves?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 22:36

For those interested the Alberta Provincial final is streaming live on the Wolfpack fb page.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 01:57

I’m very curious to hear why MLR will fail but a national high performance u23 competition will be a great success.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 06:07

Tobar wrote:I’m very curious to hear why MLR will fail but a national high performance u23 competition will be a great success.


Oh because he said so. What he fails to present is a why guys would play in it, who would coach, and why players would choose to play in it.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 07:13

TheStroBro wrote:
rufusbuck wrote: The Eagles are winning against Canada now because their line-up is rife with players who were significantly or completely developed overseas.


This is hilarious. What an inaccurate statement. So because a handful of guys whom happen to be on the 23 to beat Scotland who were born overseas were on the roster...don't you have nearly as many? No. A significant portion of why you're getting smoked is coaching.

In regards your amateur U23 high performance league with professional training demands? If the players are in said HP environment spending 40 hours a week at the facility, how are they gonna feed themselves?

The US fly-half of choice now was developed in the Irish system. It will be a frosty Friday when the US produces a ten who can play in the Premiership. The impact of a real ten cannot be overstated and Canada hasn’t had one since their Scotsman retired. I would describe over half the Eagles starters as foreign developed. Canada’s complement is smaller, and their import half-backs aren’t as good. I find it amusing that you assailed a U23 development league as “bullshit”, but you soaked your thong for a professional league with no player base. As for time to devote to rugby, 40 hours a week is not likely, more like twenty, more for away games. You failed entirely to explain how club players would be devoting forty hours per week to rugby. They won’t if course, and club rugby will continue to fail to produce a player base that can cope in modern international rugby.

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