Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Canadian rugby

Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 07:34

ruckovercdn wrote:
Tobar wrote:I’m very curious to hear why MLR will fail but a national high performance u23 competition will be a great success.


Oh because he said so. What he fails to present is a why guys would play in it, who would coach, and why players would choose to play in it.

Gosh Suzie, that’s a bit catty. Players would play in it because they want to play rugby in a more demanding and competitive environment than club rugby. The teams would find coaches the same way any team team does. Again, no fan-boy in this forum has explained from
whence the player base for these MLR teams will come. Club rugby in Canada isn’t going to cut it as the feeder. Rugby Canada should have built the Super League in ‘98
as U23 with U25 front row and two open-age players per team. Eight teams with forty-player rosters would produce the players needed for two domestic pro teams, with the best going overseas as they do now. But like I said, instead nothing has been done to create a competition to generate the players needed for MLR.

Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 07:42

ruckovercdn wrote:And why would those u23 players play in that league? What's the incentive ?

The same incentive anyone has to play rugby currently in Canada, with the added component of not having to relocate to BC to pursue more competitive rugby. More kids would play after high school. Better kids would be inclined to play in high school and after.

User avatar
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue, 22 Apr 2014, 16:02
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 13:57

rufusbuck wrote:They won’t if course, and club rugby will continue to fail to produce a player base that can cope in modern international rugby.


Ugh... that's why we're saying we need MLR. MLR will take club players (who are not that bad considering they are holding their own by beating Glendale and Utah- you can't disprove that) and improve them by providing the professional environment. And THEN they will be better prepared to cope in modern international rugby.
Norfolk Harvesters RFC 10-0-0 NRU "B" Division Champions

Posts: 739
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 14:05

Almost every quality flyhalf ever has been a product of a Tier 1 nation

Posts: 1298
Joined: Wed, 25 Feb 2015, 17:54
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 16:03

rufusbuck wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:And why would those u23 players play in that league? What's the incentive ?

The same incentive anyone has to play rugby currently in Canada, with the added component of not having to relocate to BC to pursue more competitive rugby. More kids would play after high school. Better kids would be inclined to play in high school and after.


Okay but why would more players play after high school? Because without and incentive a pathway is pointless. Have you considered that maybe the reason kids drop from rugby is that there's nothing worthwhile at the end of it?

Fully behind you on the BC aspect though, but I'm not sure a national pay to play league is the right way forward.
Last edited by ruckovercdn on Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 17:04, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 1286
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 16:34

rufusbuck wrote:The US fly-half of choice now was developed in the Irish system. It will be a frosty Friday when the US produces a ten who can play in the Premiership. The impact of a real ten cannot be overstated and Canada hasn’t had one since their Scotsman retired. I would describe over half the Eagles starters as foreign developed. Canada’s complement is smaller, and their import half-backs aren’t as good. I find it amusing that you assailed a U23 development league as “bullshit”, but you soaked your thong for a professional league with no player base. As for time to devote to rugby, 40 hours a week is not likely, more like twenty, more for away games. You failed entirely to explain how club players would be devoting forty hours per week to rugby. They won’t if course, and club rugby will continue to fail to produce a player base that can cope in modern international rugby.


Yes, AJ played scrum-half when he was at Blackrock. He developed into what got him a contract at Connacht while playing at NYAC and Life University.

ruckovercdn wrote:
Okay but why would more players play after high school? Because without and incentive a pathway is pointless. Have you considered that maybe the reason kids drop from rugby is that there's nothing worthwhile at the end of it?

Fully behind you on the BC aspect though, but I'm not sure a national pay to play league is the right way forward.


There won't be. There's no incentive to play amateur rugby here, people who play as adults are doing it as their hobby. Those who stop no longer find enjoyment in said hobby. Without financial incentive you won't get those top players into the system. OUA is the only collegiate league in Canada that is organized for Rugby and they have produced Test players. But they're in a FT collegiate environment. Where is the incentive for an amateur u23 competition when the players have to feed themselves?

With a pro league, club rugby will grow in participation if done correctly...but it won't be more top level athletes, it will just be more people which is great by itself. I'd love for our rugby cultures to support village teams. If you can field 500k senior players across a Union you will end up with enough choice athletes over time for a pro comp...but there has to be incentive and pathway at the top. What we're seeing with MLR of course is the incubation of the pathway.

Posts: 283
Joined: Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:19
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 17:43

Having a player base 'good' enough for Pro rugby, and having a pro rugby competition is a chicken and egg thing. You can't retain good enough athletes and scouting system without having a professional competition at the end of the line*, but if the athletes aren't good enough then in theory it can be hard to draw crowds. There is of course the option to create a transplant team such as the Leigh Wolfpack, but that has issues in that you don't get the same buy in from local clubs, community engagement, and when the pro players retire they will likely not stay in the local area and go into high quality community coaching.

For what it's worth the quality of MLR last year was definitely good enough to sell and keep crowds, and all evidence is the the Arrows are easily in the top half of MLR.

*Even with it, it's not a sure fire thing, I know of at least a bunch of players who have turned down a senior academy contract to go to uni for academics, but you'll keep the most passionate.

Posts: 283
Joined: Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:19
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 17:47

rufusbuck wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:
Tobar wrote:I’m very curious to hear why MLR will fail but a national high performance u23 competition will be a great success.


Oh because he said so. What he fails to present is a why guys would play in it, who would coach, and why players would choose to play in it.

Gosh Suzie, that’s a bit catty. Players would play in it because they want to play rugby in a more demanding and competitive environment than club rugby. The teams would find coaches the same way any team team does. Again, no fan-boy in this forum has explained from
whence the player base for these MLR teams will come. Club rugby in Canada isn’t going to cut it as the feeder. Rugby Canada should have built the Super League in ‘98
as U23 with U25 front row and two open-age players per team. Eight teams with forty-player rosters would produce the players needed for two domestic pro teams, with the best going overseas as they do now. But like I said, instead nothing has been done to create a competition to generate the players needed for MLR.


OA are generally regarded as being in the top 3 or 4 teams in MLR, they've done that with a largely Canadian side. The player quality is there. I fully expect OA to put in their own scouting systems to curate the best talent.

As for the best players going to play in an U23 league with no domestic pro pathway, you're having a laugh. If players want to go pro currently they basically have to go abroad, if they don't want to go pro then club rugby is fine.

Posts: 1272
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 01:30

Having professional teams provide incentives for talent to either consider playing the game in the first place or stay in the game when they historically come to the point in the playing time where traditionally there has been a fall away. A big part of the plans behind MLR is the establishment of academy systems in order to develop HP pathways for talent to remain and grow in the game in order to feed the MLR in general. Not just their local team but all of the league.

So if Canada in time ends up with say 4 teams you're looking at a significant investment in those structures assuming they following the emerging model in MLR which look to reach further down the tree to the U15s level.

Posts: 317
Joined: Fri, 14 Aug 2015, 13:58
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 12:10

I think we can all agree the results will be nothing but positive if the Arrows are succesful. Hopefully enough people are willing to part with their $$ to fund the team/players.

Posts: 739
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 13:10

We can all hope that. So far around 2000 people paid and showed up to their exhibition matches. Hopefully an official schedule will increase those numbers.

On the topic of MLR teams deceoping youth players, I hope Ontario creates a setup similar to what Houston has done. They’ve been hosting training camps in coordination with local clubs, going from club to club but allowing the camps to be open to everyone. This is naturally the first step towards youth development and is manageable with a new team. Eventually they can move up to having u20, u18, u16 level academies (which RUNY plan to have by year 2).

Posts: 90
Joined: Tue, 28 Feb 2017, 03:39
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 18:36

Here's a monkeywrench into the circular arguments over MLR and club rugby...

Well before Argentina was invited into the 3N, how were they producing so many talented players? I assume there was no professionalism there and the best went overseas (Dr Fil, Pichot, lots of forwards), some of whom ended up dressing for Italy (Parisse, Castro, Canale, Dominguez). Their club competition created, and continues to create quality players, no?

Posts: 1286
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 19:03

Used2BwithIt wrote:Here's a monkeywrench into the circular arguments over MLR and club rugby...

Well before Argentina was invited into the 3N, how were they producing so many talented players? I assume there was no professionalism there and the best went overseas (Dr Fil, Pichot, lots of forwards), some of whom ended up dressing for Italy (Parisse, Castro, Canale, Dominguez). Their club competition created, and continues to create quality players, no?


Part of it is their history with Athletic Clubs. But instead of there only being a few out there that support rugby, a lot of them support rugby. In the US there are two that I know that have had rugby teams for almost 100 years. Olympic Club is the oldest senior club in the country, yet they don't have their own pitch. If the overarching club that the rugby team belongs to wanted one though they could make it happen as there's a lot of money there. Then you have NYAC. The BAA doesn't support Rugby, the Los Angeles Athletic Club doesn't support rugby etc. We have a lot of Country Clubs (golf/tennis/gyms) but none of them are support team sports.

Posts: 739
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 21:33

A lot of it probably has to do with the fact that American football took over and stemmed from rugby. If American football never came around then we'd be playing rugby in colleges across the country and probably dominate the world. A guy can dream.

Posts: 33
Joined: Tue, 18 Oct 2016, 17:59
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby north walian » Thu, 04 Oct 2018, 19:47

Looks like nobody told RC that there are a couple of mens 15s tournaments on this weekend.

Posts: 1298
Joined: Wed, 25 Feb 2015, 17:54
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Thu, 04 Oct 2018, 22:52

Well I mean why would they post about grass roots rugby? I mean God, supporting the clubs they expect to do the majority of the work developing youth would be close to a plan.

Posts: 5
Joined: Tue, 03 Jun 2014, 03:06
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Run34 » Sat, 06 Oct 2018, 21:10

Canada loses to Uruguay in their opening match of the 2018 Americas Pacific Challenge by a score of 35-21.

I thought there were a few positives to take away from their performance, particularly the strong play of Theo Sauder. He was slotted in at full-back and I thought he showed a lot of skill and creativity in the position. He is by far the biggest attacking threat in this Canadian side. Every time he had ball in hand he seemed to make good use of it. His speed and evasion skills were really on display. I few hiccups but overall very strong. Kyle Baillie was another one who had a decent game. Very aggressive in the tackle and bumped off a Tero or two when running with ball. Again, not a perfect performance but fairly decent. McRorie also showed some good energy when he came on. Him, Sauder, and Mack are the only ones it seems that know how to evade tackles. Everyone else insists on running straight into contact. So, good for McRorie. Glad to see him come back strong after being out to injury.

As far as the bad goes there was a lot to choose from. I won't dwell on anybody's poor performance in particular but I am getting increasingly frustrated by Kingsley Jones' insistence on returning to a dry well and expecting water. I know there are bigger problems with Canadian rugby than a few eyebrow raising selections in the match day 23 but sometimes I do have to question our team management. For instance, why is it necessary for Barkwill to play a complete 80 minutes in an 'A' tournament when the scrum is already going backwards with pace and Howard sits ready to go on the bench? And if Sauder is in consideration for the 10 shirt why do we throw him into the position for a test match but don't give him time at 10 during this development tournament? Like I said, I thought he played well at 15 but when McRorie came on for Parfrey I would have liked to have seen McRorie go to 9 and Sauder move to 10. And, I think Brock Staller is absolutely wasted on the wing. In my view he is most effective in the mid-field. Would have much rather seen him play 13 today considering this current mid-field combination has been less than stellar.

Hopefully the boys can stiffen up the defence and show a bit more creativity and consistency on offense for the next match. Hoping for a speedy recovery for Rumball and Heaton from their knocks as well.
Last edited by Run34 on Sat, 06 Oct 2018, 21:51, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Posts: 2159
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Sat, 06 Oct 2018, 21:20

For instance, why is it necessary for Barkwill to play a complete 80 minutes in an 'A' tournament when the scrum is already going backwards


It’s what happens when bad coaches and analysts are in over their heads and can’t admit errors because they fear for their jobs.

Posts: 1286
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 06 Oct 2018, 21:22

Barkwill is not an 80 minute player, full stop. At his age, we're talking a 40 minute player at best. He's an old Statesman that you have on the side to provide lift. At Club level he can give a great 50-60 minute shift. But this is a very strong Uruguayan side, not their best but close enough. So the scoreline overall isn't that bad. The majority of your repechage Squad is playing as Canada A over the next couple of days. It will be hard to see you guys come out of the Repechage to be honest. Roster for the most part is old and coaching between Anscombe and Jones seems stale overall, Jones just has even less money.

Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 08:25

TheStroBro wrote:
Yes, AJ played scrum-half when he was at Blackrock. He developed into what got him a contract at Connacht while playing at NYAC and Life University.


There won't be. There's no incentive to play amateur rugby here, people who play as adults are doing it as their hobby. Those who stop no longer find enjoyment in said hobby. Without financial incentive you won't get those top players into the system. OUA is the only collegiate league in Canada that is organized for Rugby and they have produced Test players. But they're in a FT collegiate environment. Where is the incentive for an amateur u23 competition when the players have to feed themselves?

With a pro league, club rugby will grow in participation if done correctly...but it won't be more top level athletes, it will just be more people which is great by itself. I'd love for our rugby cultures to support village teams. If you can field 500k senior players across a Union you will end up with enough choice athletes over time for a pro comp...but there has to be incentive and pathway at the top. What we're seeing with MLR of course is the incubation of the pathway.

If you’re willing to described AJ MacGinty as US-developed fly-half, you’re capable of mental gymnastics that I certainly cannot match. I still fail to see any description of a player pool for pro rugby in Canada. There has to be something after high school that can generate ten to twenty potential pros each year, and club won’t do it. I like club rugby but it’s not a viable development source for pros or a viable NSMT. Over half of all U Sport football players are playing for free, as they do not get scholarships. If the Island, VRU, CRU, ERU, ORU, EORU and RQ ran teams that were not pay-to-play but rather funded through donors and sponsors, the kids would play. Such a structure should be the pathway to the NSMT. Club rugby won’t cut it.

Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 08:41

[quote="Blurandski

OA are generally regarded as being in the top 3 or 4 teams in MLR, they've done that with a largely Canadian side. The player quality is there. I fully expect OA to put in their own scouting systems to curate the best talent.

As for the best players going to play in an U23 league with no domestic pro pathway, you're having a laugh. If players want to go pro currently they basically have to go abroad, if they don't want to go pro then club rugby is fine.[/quote]
Suzie, back with more derp. What player quality? The quality to draw 1200 fans a game? Club rugby is fine for what? Your post is meaningless gibberish. The Canadian NSMT needs a player pool of at least fifty players capable of playing D2, Mitre 10 or Championship level to compete in this day and age. In order to produce that many pros, domestic professional rugby is required. In order to produce domestic professional rugby of that caliber, a high performance development structure is needed. And it does not exist in clubs and never will.

Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 08:53

jonny24 wrote:
rufusbuck wrote:They won’t if course, and club rugby will continue to fail to produce a player base that can cope in modern international rugby.


Ugh... that's why we're saying we need MLR. MLR will take club players (who are not that bad considering they are holding their own by beating Glendale and Utah- you can't disprove that) and improve them by providing the professional environment. And THEN they will be better prepared to cope in modern international rugby.

Great straw man argument. As if I were tryin to disprove the results of rugby games. The whole point is that the Arrows can clearly beat these MLR teams. Because they are not very good. A competition for players after high school that is significantly more structured and demanding than club rugby, and is relatively local, is required to produce a professional player pool.

Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 09:24

Every year over one hundred young Canadian men flush about $2k down the toilet to play in the absurdly terrible CRC U19. From this awful extortion, the highly unsuccessful Canadian U20 team is spawned. Clearly there is an interest among young Canadian male rugby players in playing rugby at a level above club, and these young men are not driven by the incentive to play domestic pro rugby as it doesn’t exist. What would be the outcome if rather than paying $2k for a three game tournament, players resources (time and money) went to a structure in which the regional unions ran an eight team league, each team playing twelve games with conference playoff and national final? Would that reduce the number of high-potential male rugby players, or increase it? All the resources currently wasted on travel and accommodations for the wretched CRC U19 and the U16 and U18 rubbish competitions could be used for a real competition that could actually produce a U20 player pool and in turn a better profile for Canadian rugby. Send the league all-star team to ARC or whatever World Rugby dreams up for “A” teams. Currently anybody who wants to play at the national level has to move to BC, and they don’t do it because they’re headed to the pros or because they’re paid. How many more young men would commit to rugby if they could stay at home and play and have a shot at the NSMT? No development competition means few players developed. Which produces results like the NSMT record of the last twenty-five years. This is not Argentina, not Ireland. It’s Canada, and the totality of conditions is uniquely Canadian.

Posts: 283
Joined: Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:19
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 10:46

Quick venture out from under the bridge rufusbuck?

Posts: 1286
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 15:40

rufusbuck wrote:If you’re willing to described AJ MacGinty as US-developed fly-half, you’re capable of mental gymnastics that I certainly cannot match. I still fail to see any description of a player pool for pro rugby in Canada. There has to be something after high school that can generate ten to twenty potential pros each year, and club won’t do it. I like club rugby but it’s not a viable development source for pros or a viable NSMT. Over half of all U Sport football players are playing for free, as they do not get scholarships. If the Island, VRU, CRU, ERU, ORU, EORU and RQ ran teams that were not pay-to-play but rather funded through donors and sponsors, the kids would play. Such a structure should be the pathway to the NSMT. Club rugby won’t cut it.


You can call it whatever you desire, but AJ could barely crack the 1st XV at NYAC. If he had not played at NYAC and Life University his chances of being in any National shirt were a zero. His rugby IQ obviously comes from years of playing rugby at a high level as a youth in Ireland, he always had this potential...but he was late developing and no one in Ireland was going to develop him obviously.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Buffalo, Gorbeh and 18 guests