Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Canadian rugby

Posts: 50
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 21:33

TheStroBro wrote:
rufusbuck wrote:If you’re willing to described AJ MacGinty as US-developed fly-half, you’re capable of mental gymnastics that I certainly cannot match. I still fail to see any description of a player pool for pro rugby in Canada. There has to be something after high school that can generate ten to twenty potential pros each year, and club won’t do it. I like club rugby but it’s not a viable development source for pros or a viable NSMT. Over half of all U Sport football players are playing for free, as they do not get scholarships. If the Island, VRU, CRU, ERU, ORU, EORU and RQ ran teams that were not pay-to-play but rather funded through donors and sponsors, the kids would play. Such a structure should be the pathway to the NSMT. Club rugby won’t cut it.


You can call it whatever you desire, but AJ could barely crack the 1st XV at NYAC. If he had not played at NYAC and Life University his chances of being in any National shirt were a zero. His rugby IQ obviously comes from years of playing rugby at a high level as a youth in Ireland, he always had this potential...but he was late developing and no one in Ireland was going to develop him obviously.


A twenty-two-year-old Irish player is not a product of a US system. The fact that he was coaching at Life pretty much sums up the state of his "development" upon arrival in the US. If someone with MacGinty's Irish background could not "crack" NYAC, I would assume a motorcycle head injury or degenerative neurological disorder playing a role. My point, that being that the US will not be developing a 10 capable of starting in the Premiership any time soon, stands.
Last edited by rufusbuck on Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 50
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 21:34

Blurandski wrote:Quick venture out from under the bridge rufusbuck?

Still no facts or logic, Suzie?

Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 07 Oct 2018, 23:32

rufusbuck wrote:
A twenty-two-year-old Irish player is not a product of a US system. The fact that he was coaching at Life pretty much sums up the state of his "development" upon arrival in the US. If someone with MacGinty's Irish background could not "crack" NYAC, I would assume a motorcycle head injury or degenerative neurological disorder playing a role. My point, that being that the US will not be developing a 10 capable of starting in the Premiership any time soon, stands.


AJ Spent four years at Life and played on their Senior Men's team in the Rugby Super League for four years. When he started at NYAC, Tolkin was the head coach and an assistant for the Eagles. You are clearly clueless.

Posts: 325
Joined: Fri, 14 Aug 2015, 13:58
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 00:31

This is a dumb argument. Every team in the world uses players that are barely from there.

Bundi Aki, Tuilagi, Quade Cooper, half the Scotttish team. Canada has Larson, Olmstead, McRorie, Pritchard, O'Leary.

The only difference is that their foreign 10 is better than ours. As is the rest of their team.

Even if MacGinty is not really American they at least have a university system/club league that he was attractive enough for him to leave home to take part it. More than you can say for us.

The rules are the rules and whomever does better within those rules is the winner. End of story.

User avatar
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 00:56

Larson and Olmstead are from BC.

Posts: 125
Joined: Tue, 29 Sep 2015, 21:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 01:04

4N wrote:Larson and Olmstead are from BC.


Larson left Parksville for Australia when he was about 5.

Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 01:20

Was_a_Kat wrote:
4N wrote:Larson and Olmstead are from BC.


Larson left Parksville for Australia when he was about 5.


Olmstead also grew up in Australia.

Posts: 325
Joined: Fri, 14 Aug 2015, 13:58
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 02:15

Not trying to spark a semantic debate on people's backgrounds. The point is that it doesn't matter and that you play the best 23 guys that are eligible and that's the result. Those are the rules of the game and whining about the rules is for losers.

Posts: 600
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Figaro » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 11:38

There's a Canadian U23 player at the (formerly Newport Gwent) Dragons called Will Kelly who is also apparently Welsh qualified. A fly-half / fullback. He's been playing for Dragons A in the Celtic Cup (against the other Irish and Welsh A sides) - hard to find find anything much about him but he seems to be pretty much the only flyhalf in the academy squad, and the fact he's showing up for the A team suggests he's rated as more than just a youth player.

Anyone know anything about him? I believe he's played age-grade rugby for Canada.
Last edited by Figaro on Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 10:15, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 1850
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 11:50

Toronto Wolfpack lose their play off so remain in the second tier for another year.

Wonder how long they can cope with being in the second tier before the money starts to run thin?

Posts: 1432
Joined: Wed, 16 Apr 2014, 22:26
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 13:11

Near as I can tell, Will Kelly is Canadian developed. He's played for McMaster University, and club at Brantford. Seems like he's from Ancaster (suburb of Hamilton).

From the McMaster University website: https://marauders.ca/roster.aspx?rp_id=9321

It lists his high school as Hillfield Strathallan, which is a private high school here.

So there we go. We were looking for a Canadian-developed 10, and we found him :)

Posts: 761
Joined: Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 17:18

sk 88 wrote:Toronto Wolfpack lose their play off so remain in the second tier for another year.

Wonder how long they can cope with being in the second tier before the money starts to run thin?


Wouldn't count on it. Almost a sellout yesterday and they are receiving continuous national media coverage.

The owner is in it for the long haul and has very deep pockets. Rugby doesn't have many David Argyle's, never mind League.

Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 17:35

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Toronto Wolfpack lose their play off so remain in the second tier for another year.

Wonder how long they can cope with being in the second tier before the money starts to run thin?


Wouldn't count on it. Almost a sellout yesterday and they are receiving continuous national media coverage.

The owner is in it for the long haul and has very deep pockets. Rugby doesn't have many David Argyle's, never mind League.


So like all Rugby teams it becomes a toy of millionaires where they don't care if they lose money unlike other North American sports franchises.

David Argyle may be wealthy but he may not be patient. And are those actually tickets sold or tickets comped, because that's the real question...however, even if you comp the tickets it's still a bit impressive for people to show up.

Posts: 854
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 17:38

Blurandski wrote:Quick venture out from under the bridge rufusbuck?


Gotta get the cracks in before the sun comes up!

Posts: 600
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Figaro » Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 08:04

grande wrote:Near as I can tell, Will Kelly is Canadian developed. He's played for McMaster University, and club at Brantford. Seems like he's from Ancaster (suburb of Hamilton).

From the McMaster University website: https://marauders.ca/roster.aspx?rp_id=9321

It lists his high school as Hillfield Strathallan, which is a private high school here.

So there we go. We were looking for a Canadian-developed 10, and we found him :)


I checked out his Twitter, he's definitely Canadian!

I'll keep an eye on him. They'll probably farm him out to the Welsh Premiership now the Celtic Cup (A team tournament) is over. God knows the Dragons' Flyhalves are all rubbish so he might even show up in the senior team if he's good.

Posts: 50
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 19:59

Tobar wrote:
Blurandski wrote:Quick venture out from under the bridge rufusbuck?


Gotta get the cracks in before the sun comes up!


They're not cracks, they're observations and responses to the Fanboy rubbish being spouted on this forum by little girls. Repeatedly, I have said that I wish MLR the best, but I do not hold high hopes for it, particularly in Canada, as there is not an adequately skilled and experienced player pool. This position is at odds with the Fanboys, who can brook no criticism of MLR. Further, I have repeatedly outlined my view of what is required in Canadian rugby to deal with professionalism, albeit twenty years late, which is a high performanced U23 league with eight teams run by the various sub-unions, in BC, Alberta, Ontario and possibly Quebec. If the league thrives, further teams on the prairies and Atlantic provinces could develop. It was clearly seen by Rugby Canada in the late nineties that some type of high-performance league and academy system was required for professionalism, hence Super League and CCSD, neither of which was adequate, but both were real responses to real conditions. Super League was not a development league and CCSD limited the player pool to one roster, which was not enough players to help the NSMT transition to the professional world of rugby after 1995. Now, magically, the level of play that produces, at it's very top, Canadian teams that can lose to Brazil, is going to be adquate for domestic professional rugby in the complete absence of any high-performance league in the country? Get your heads, weighed girls.

Posts: 50
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 20:14

marvinparsons wrote:This is a dumb argument. Every team in the world uses players that are barely from there.

Bundi Aki, Tuilagi, Quade Cooper, half the Scotttish team. Canada has Larson, Olmstead, McRorie, Pritchard, O'Leary.

The only difference is that their foreign 10 is better than ours. As is the rest of their team.

Even if MacGinty is not really American they at least have a university system/club league that he was attractive enough for him to leave home to take part it. More than you can say for us.

The rules are the rules and whomever does better within those rules is the winner. End of story.


The story is not whether or not the teams are operating within the rules, the story is the total lack of development of high-performance rugby in Canada, and the now complete failure to produce international-level big forwards in Canada. I only brought up MacGinty because the current run of dominance by the US of Canada has coincided with significant influence from the foreign-developed players in the US line-up. Canada has lost the plot completely, which is why the top-Canadian scorer of all-time is an Australian, who agreed to play Super League for one season, lo these mean years ago, because Dave Clarke told him that he had to in order to get on the Canadian roster for the World Cup. MacGinty, from what I read, certainly did not leave home to play rugby for NYAC, nor Life. I find him an inspiring character, and so I have been reading about him, and he seems to have more or less fallen into US rugby after packing it in on the auld sod. Regardless, the US system is hardly one to be emulated given that they are slightly more terrible at U20 than Canada. The "everybody's doing it" argument is irrelevent. The question, in each country, has to be "is it beneficial", and further, "is it beneficial in both the short and long run". Rugby Canada got away with producing nothing in terms of development and competition domestically by using foreign 10s and 15s, although the NSMT has gone downhill steadily since '95 regardless. The All Blacks are taking 51 players for the End of Year Tests. There are not 51 Canadian players capable of playing international rugby at a competitive level with the real rugby nations anymore, and given where Canadian rugby was at the end of the amateur era, that represents total failure to adapt to professionalism. MLR opening up spots for South American and French players is hardly going to spur the widespread development required to produce a forty-player base of Canadian pros for the NSMT, or the sixty-plus players needed for two profesional sides, let alone four.

Posts: 50
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 20:17

TheStroBro wrote:
rufusbuck wrote:
A twenty-two-year-old Irish player is not a product of a US system. The fact that he was coaching at Life pretty much sums up the state of his "development" upon arrival in the US. If someone with MacGinty's Irish background could not "crack" NYAC, I would assume a motorcycle head injury or degenerative neurological disorder playing a role. My point, that being that the US will not be developing a 10 capable of starting in the Premiership any time soon, stands.


AJ Spent four years at Life and played on their Senior Men's team in the Rugby Super League for four years. When he started at NYAC, Tolkin was the head coach and an assistant for the Eagles. You are clearly clueless.

You have failed to refute a single thing I said. Is this an indictment of your critical thinking, or more your reading comprehension?

Posts: 50
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 22:49

grande wrote:Near as I can tell, Will Kelly is Canadian developed. He's played for McMaster University, and club at Brantford. Seems like he's from Ancaster (suburb of Hamilton).

From the McMaster University website: https://marauders.ca/roster.aspx?rp_id=9321

It lists his high school as Hillfield Strathallan, which is a private high school here.

So there we go. We were looking for a Canadian-developed 10, and we found him :)


No, the discussion was about the capacity of the US, or Canada for that matter, to develop a 10 capable of playing at the level of D2, Championship or Mitre10. When Kelly starts for Dragons eight or ten times, let us know.

Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 11 Oct 2018, 00:22

rufusbuck wrote:You have failed to refute a single thing I said. Is this an indictment of your critical thinking, or more your reading comprehension?

That AJ MacGinty had some dry rub put on him before he went onto the smoker is apparently incorrect? No, you're wrong. Otherwise he would have gone through the Leinster Academy and all would have been happily ever after rather than working as a bar tender in NYC struggling to play at NYAC when he first got there.

What top level country in the world has an amateur U23 competition as you describe? None. There is no incentive.

Posts: 761
Joined: Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Thu, 11 Oct 2018, 05:05

I will be honest TheStroBro, don't agree with you sometimes but I think you are dead on the money when you say a U23 League is a complete waste of time. I actually think the new Canadian Rugby Club Championship is a good initiative and should be expanded on. We need to strengthen the amateur club game, not invent leagues with no identity or soul. We have done that multiple times already and they have all failed. I personally loved going down to watch the 1st XV for my former club play, especially on big game days. My former club hosted a club day the past number of years and last year there were well over 1500 people there for the 1st's game. We had a full beer garden and canteen running and the club sold a lot of beer and made a lot of money.

I would love to see Canada embrace the Argentinian model of strong club competitions with regional and national championships held annually. We can then build a professional game layered on top of that with club affiliation as they do in Australia, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, New Zealand, etc.

There are over 50 clubs in Ontario that can feed the Arrows and contrary to what some have said, the players are there. The Fullback for the 1st XV of my former club was an All-Canadian Tight End for Queen's University Football and won a National Championship with them. He could have easily stepped up to the Professional game with proper coaching and a full time training environment but that pathway is not there so those players are lost to the system. He sells real estate now and I don't think he is going to put that career on hold to go live in Langford collecting McDonalds coupons. The players are there but there is no money and no incentive for the good players to drop out of careers which put bread on the table for the opportunity to play for peanuts in the National Program.

With this in mind, MLR is definitely the way forward. Pro14 could have worked five years ago had the Pro14 been willing to change their season to a summer season but they won't so the North American market won't be captured by them. TWP have shown that this model is feasible but Rugby Union is too conservative of a sport to ever attempt it. We also need to keep the National Union as far away from the pro game as possible as they will simply make a mess of it. They don't have the business savvy or organizational skills to have a go of it.

Posts: 359
Joined: Mon, 28 Nov 2016, 20:57
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby datodato » Thu, 11 Oct 2018, 07:58

Dudes... I don't know why exactly you brought in Kingsley Jones, who proved time and time again that he is the worst coach in Professional Rugby. I really loved the way Canada played at the RWC15 and remember that you should have won the Italy match where you showed some impressive Rugby. Only God knows why you chose the worst coach ever to walk the Professional arena (HOW DID HE GET THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!!!!!!!!). He is a pro in making teams weaker. Good news is that every team he left (Russia, Dragons,...) got much better the day he left, so there is still some hope.

Posts: 600
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Figaro » Thu, 11 Oct 2018, 08:16

datodato wrote:Good news is that every team he left (Russia, Dragons,...) got much better the day he left, so there is still some hope.


Lol. Actually, in Kinglsey's last season at the Dragons we won four league games. Last season (the first post-Kingsley season) they only won two league games, so if anything by ditching Kingsley things got even worse. I broadly agree that Kingsley's no great coach, but it's factually inaccurate to say that the Dragons improved when he left (hopefully this season will be better - 2 from 6 so far so on track).

I brought up Will Kelly more because (as a Dragons fan) I wanted to know who he was than wanting to really but in about Canadian Rugby, but whilst we're on the subject of Canadian-developed 10s, it looks like Kelly was at fly half in the Ontario Arrows' exhibition games. It's telling that he's chosen to join a foreign professional academy rather than (presumably get a good chance of) playing MLR - could be a good thing for Canada though, if he does get to the point where he's actually playing regularly for the senior side. Wikipedia suggests he's Welsh qualified (and I can't see the Dragons taking him at that level if he wasn't) but he seems to want to play senior rugby for Canada (and with the utmost respect for Canada, let's face it, he'll be good enough to play 10 for Canada long before Wales take a look at him).

Posts: 1415
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 11 Oct 2018, 14:02

There will be several years before MLR teams will be able to pay Marquee players what he's making with the Dragons, so hopefully higher competition level allows him to flourish and get selected for Canada.

Posts: 359
Joined: Mon, 28 Nov 2016, 20:57
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby datodato » Thu, 11 Oct 2018, 14:18

Figaro wrote:
datodato wrote:Good news is that every team he left (Russia, Dragons,...) got much better the day he left, so there is still some hope.


Lol. Actually, in Kinglsey's last season at the Dragons we won four league games. Last season (the first post-Kingsley season) they only won two league games, so if anything by ditching Kingsley things got even worse. I broadly agree that Kingsley's no great coach, but it's factually inaccurate to say that the Dragons improved when he left (hopefully this season will be better - 2 from 6 so far so on track).


You prove my point. The first season he took over as Head Coach he went from 8 wins to 4 wins, thats half the wins. After he left the team needed a bit time to recover from the worst coaching experience possible. Since then the Dragons look to improve and had some good games this season.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Zhenya_Zima and 17 guests