Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Canadian rugby

User avatar
Posts: 2342
Joined: Thu, 08 May 2014, 11:00
Location: United Federation of Planets

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 16:42

Well I'm sure it was posted here somewhere, but if nothing else we should give plaudits to the Canada team for this

After Canada's final game of the Rugby World Cup was cancelled due to the damage caused by Typhoon Hagibis, the players took to the streets to lend a helping hand in the clean-up operation. The Canada players were seen shovelling mud, carrying furniture and clearing debris after the storm passed through on Sunday. Typhoon Hagibis has left at least 23 people dead and cut power to almost half a million homes across the country


Some things are bigger than rugby, and I'm sure the team won a lot of hearts today

Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon, 02 Jun 2014, 03:08
Location: Ontario
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 18:34

Ser Podrick of Payne wrote:Well I'm sure it was posted here somewhere, but if nothing else we should give plaudits to the Canada team for this

After Canada's final game of the Rugby World Cup was cancelled due to the damage caused by Typhoon Hagibis, the players took to the streets to lend a helping hand in the clean-up operation. The Canada players were seen shovelling mud, carrying furniture and clearing debris after the storm passed through on Sunday. Typhoon Hagibis has left at least 23 people dead and cut power to almost half a million homes across the country


Some things are bigger than rugby, and I'm sure the team won a lot of hearts today


I have mixed feelings, the guys are awesome...... but as someone worried about the state of the game in this country I can already say that this is taking over ALL the coverage of what happened this RWC, I've already gotten into arguments with people on the RC facebook page who are responding with this after ANY mild critique of how Canada played or the mess the sport is in here. It's going to make it extra tough to fix performance issues if everyone is just comfortable with us being nice people on an International stage.

So much of Canadian rugby is comfortable with moral victories at this point I'm not even sure where we begin to fix things. The sport in this country is just going to fade into an extremely niche thing played by a few expats if things don't turn around soon. This is EXACTLY what happened to Canadian Cricket ten years ago.

Posts: 484
Joined: Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:19
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 22:15

Given the age of the Uruguay squad and the state of US rugby there is 5% chance, max, of Canada getting either Americas spot for 2023. The odds of them beating out either 16th ranked Spain or 19th ranked Romania in the repechage is probably also 5%. Lots of the best players in the squad quite won't be around in 2023.

Lots needs to change, and it needs to change fast. First thing to go needs to be the coach, the fact that Shane O'Leary only got 20 minutes this RWC was criminal.

User avatar
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat, 28 Sep 2019, 20:55
Location: Namek
National Flag:
MexicoMexico

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 22:29

Is the ARC going to serve as the new qualifying format for RWC Americas? If so I think Brazil would fancy their chances against Canada...

Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon, 02 Jun 2014, 03:08
Location: Ontario
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 22:43

Blurandski wrote:Given the age of the Uruguay squad and the state of US rugby there is 5% chance, max, of Canada getting either Americas spot for 2023. The odds of them beating out either 16th ranked Spain or 19th ranked Romania in the repechage is probably also 5%. Lots of the best players in the squad quite won't be around in 2023.

Lots needs to change, and it needs to change fast. First thing to go needs to be the coach, the fact that Shane O'Leary only got 20 minutes this RWC was criminal.


I suspect Canada will be eliminated in the repechage next time around, we'll probably sneak through the America's qualifying as an/the entrant but then fade out to Spain or Romania. Russia's squad is also older, so I suspect they won't be in the repechage.

About the only hope for Canada is MLR gets such consistent game time for a squad of somewhat weaker athletes that they have the technical skills down and would have spent a lot of time playing together which kind of covers up the downgrade in raw talent.

I'm just so depressed right now, I know EXACTLY how Canadians think and all that 85% of people will care about is we helped relief efforts for a day or two. There will now be no little/no analysis of how poorly this RWC went for Canada.

Posts: 484
Joined: Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 02:19
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 22:46

Return_of_BG_97 wrote:Is the ARC going to serve as the new qualifying format for RWC Americas? If so I think Brazil would fancy their chances against Canada...


Yes. The ARC is the new qualification pathway for the Americas.

The big question is the repechage, rumours are that it will be 8 teams, but no-one knows whether they will be fighting for 1 or 3 spots. If 1 spot then Brazil, Canada, Romania, Russia, Hong Kong, Samoa, Kenya, Zimbabwe will be the likely competitors. I cannot see Canada or Brazil emerging successfully from that melee.

Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon, 02 Jun 2014, 03:08
Location: Ontario
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 23:59

http://bcrugbynews.com/show_news.cfm?ID=3308

Great line by Mark at BCRugbyNews in his wrap up. The Men's XV's team is actually setting up a culture of celebrating losing.

Also judging by the RC fan page the people most confused by the match cancellation are actually the fans that were on the ground. I saw several fans locally say they were perplexed at the cancellation and lack of rescheduling since post storm the weather improved instantly.

Posts: 5720
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 14 Oct 2019, 08:21

Blurandski wrote:
Return_of_BG_97 wrote:Is the ARC going to serve as the new qualifying format for RWC Americas? If so I think Brazil would fancy their chances against Canada...


Yes. The ARC is the new qualification pathway for the Americas.

The big question is the repechage, rumours are that it will be 8 teams, but no-one knows whether they will be fighting for 1 or 3 spots. If 1 spot then Brazil, Canada, Romania, Russia, Hong Kong, Samoa, Kenya, Zimbabwe will be the likely competitors. I cannot see Canada or Brazil emerging successfully from that melee.


I like the idea of an 8-team repechage.

Posts: 864
Joined: Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 14 Oct 2019, 16:14

LittleGuy wrote:http://bcrugbynews.com/show_news.cfm?ID=3308

Great line by Mark at BCRugbyNews in his wrap up. The Men's XV's team is actually setting up a culture of celebrating losing.

Also judging by the RC fan page the people most confused by the match cancellation are actually the fans that were on the ground. I saw several fans locally say they were perplexed at the cancellation and lack of rescheduling since post storm the weather improved instantly.


Dude, we have become a soft country. People in this country love this sort of bullshit because they think it fits in with the "Canadian Identity" which has been completely manufactured slowly over the past 30-40 years and is driven by latte sipping idiots in Downtown Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. I've been in the military for 15 years, I joined an organization that was in heavy combat operations and was fighting intense combat as little as a decade ago. I am now subjected daily to PC Bullshit at work and can't even imagine our Armed Forces fielding a combat capable force like we had in Afghanistan. If anything, we still have warfighters but they are all kept hidden in Special Operations Forces and the run of the mill Armed Forces is all about hugs and kisses with touchy feely bullshit. Not saying we should treat people poorly at all and I am a Libertatian that supports, LGBTQ+, Pro Choice, Human Rights, etc but many people use these causes as excuses to be malingerers and lazy sacks now.

I ran a recruit course not too long ago and I was appalled at the fitness level of many young people. It's a sad day when I am nearly twice the age of some of these people and can dust them in any sort of event requiring physical ability and fitness.

The days of us producing a bunch of Jamie Cudmore's and Dan Baugh's are long over. The fact we have no real professional setup and euro pro contracts have dried up is what will hurt us the most. MLR is a start but it's still pays pennies in comparison to a real job.

Any real legit hard ass in this country is out silently making their money in the oil fields, logging camps, farming, fishing, becoming a firefighter, police officer, military, etc. They most certainly are not playing rugby. Why? Because getting needlessly injured means sacrificing massive salaries. I played Rugby still up until two years ago, I got injured and actually missed a deployment which would have been six months tax free in Eastern Europe, that's like $50,000! Yah I was pissed!

Unemployment is at a record low, there are lots of good jobs as all the boomers are retiring. Chauncey O'Toole, Jason Marshall, Jebb Sinclair, John Moonlight, etc. These guys were at the tail ends of their careers sure but they all are still better than the present crop we've got out there.

They all opted for employment over mcdonalds coupons in Langford. Not everyone has rich parents that live in Vancouver and Victoria who can subsidize their adult children's amateur sporting ventures.

Sorry for the rant, just triggered!

User avatar
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat, 28 Sep 2019, 20:55
Location: Namek
National Flag:
MexicoMexico

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Mon, 14 Oct 2019, 19:06

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
LittleGuy wrote:http://bcrugbynews.com/show_news.cfm?ID=3308

Great line by Mark at BCRugbyNews in his wrap up. The Men's XV's team is actually setting up a culture of celebrating losing.

Also judging by the RC fan page the people most confused by the match cancellation are actually the fans that were on the ground. I saw several fans locally say they were perplexed at the cancellation and lack of rescheduling since post storm the weather improved instantly.


Dude, we have become a soft country. People in this country love this sort of bullshit because they think it fits in with the "Canadian Identity" which has been completely manufactured slowly over the past 30-40 years and is driven by latte sipping idiots in Downtown Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. I've been in the military for 15 years, I joined an organization that was in heavy combat operations and was fighting intense combat as little as a decade ago. I am now subjected daily to PC Bullshit at work and can't even imagine our Armed Forces fielding a combat capable force like we had in Afghanistan. If anything, we still have warfighters but they are all kept hidden in Special Operations Forces and the run of the mill Armed Forces is all about hugs and kisses with touchy feely bullshit. Not saying we should treat people poorly at all and I am a Libertatian that supports, LGBTQ+, Pro Choice, Human Rights, etc but many people use these causes as excuses to be malingerers and lazy sacks now.

I ran a recruit course not too long ago and I was appalled at the fitness level of many young people. It's a sad day when I am nearly twice the age of some of these people and can dust them in any sort of event requiring physical ability and fitness.

The days of us producing a bunch of Jamie Cudmore's and Dan Baugh's are long over. The fact we have no real professional setup and euro pro contracts have dried up is what will hurt us the most. MLR is a start but it's still pays pennies in comparison to a real job.

Any real legit hard ass in this country is out silently making their money in the oil fields, logging camps, farming, fishing, becoming a firefighter, police officer, military, etc. They most certainly are not playing rugby. Why? Because getting needlessly injured means sacrificing massive salaries. I played Rugby still up until two years ago, I got injured and actually missed a deployment which would have been six months tax free in Eastern Europe, that's like $50,000! Yah I was pissed!

Unemployment is at a record low, there are lots of good jobs as all the boomers are retiring. Chauncey O'Toole, Jason Marshall, Jebb Sinclair, John Moonlight, etc. These guys were at the tail ends of their careers sure but they all are still better than the present crop we've got out there.

They all opted for employment over mcdonalds coupons in Langford. Not everyone has rich parents that live in Vancouver and Victoria who can subsidize their adult children's amateur sporting ventures.

Sorry for the rant, just triggered!


As a Mexican I wish our country could be "soft" as you describe Canada, but I'm not going to have a rant about Mexican social issues on this topic (maybe in the off-topic section some other day).

But that bolded part is the crux of your issue. I remember reading a story about Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson being a star soccer player and how much he preferred soccer over football, but he chose to go to college football (and the NFL) because it meant more money. Soccer salaries during his time (the late 90s) were ridiculously low (I think there was a story of Alexi Lalas or another USMNT player in MLS who had to rely on his grandma to make ends meet, I'm likely mis-remembering). Compare that to today, where even the lowest MLS salaries (75k) is pretty good for most major American cities, and many domestic soccer players in the US are comfortably making as much money as lower-tier teams in Europe.

Posts: 93
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Tue, 15 Oct 2019, 21:05

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
Dude, we have become a soft country. People in this country love this sort of bullshit because they think it fits in with the "Canadian Identity" which has been completely manufactured slowly over the past 30-40 years and is driven by latte sipping idiots in Downtown Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. I've been in the military for 15 years, I joined an organization that was in heavy combat operations and was fighting intense combat as little as a decade ago. I am now subjected daily to PC Bullshit at work and can't even imagine our Armed Forces fielding a combat capable force like we had in Afghanistan. If anything, we still have warfighters but they are all kept hidden in Special Operations Forces and the run of the mill Armed Forces is all about hugs and kisses with touchy feely bullshit. Not saying we should treat people poorly at all and I am a Libertatian that supports, LGBTQ+, Pro Choice, Human Rights, etc but many people use these causes as excuses to be malingerers and lazy sacks now.

I ran a recruit course not too long ago and I was appalled at the fitness level of many young people. It's a sad day when I am nearly twice the age of some of these people and can dust them in any sort of event requiring physical ability and fitness.

The days of us producing a bunch of Jamie Cudmore's and Dan Baugh's are long over. The fact we have no real professional setup and euro pro contracts have dried up is what will hurt us the most. MLR is a start but it's still pays pennies in comparison to a real job.

Any real legit hard ass in this country is out silently making their money in the oil fields, logging camps, farming, fishing, becoming a firefighter, police officer, military, etc. They most certainly are not playing rugby. Why? Because getting needlessly injured means sacrificing massive salaries. I played Rugby still up until two years ago, I got injured and actually missed a deployment which would have been six months tax free in Eastern Europe, that's like $50,000! Yah I was pissed!

Unemployment is at a record low, there are lots of good jobs as all the boomers are retiring. Chauncey O'Toole, Jason Marshall, Jebb Sinclair, John Moonlight, etc. These guys were at the tail ends of their careers sure but they all are still better than the present crop we've got out there.

They all opted for employment over mcdonalds coupons in Langford. Not everyone has rich parents that live in Vancouver and Victoria who can subsidize their adult children's amateur sporting ventures.

Sorry for the rant, just triggered!


I have spent a fair bit of time around adolescents in the last ten years, in both an upper middle-class and an economic precariate-class setting. I didn't find that the kids were soft as a rule in either place. Kids still played hurt, and they were aggressive. The people in positions of authority and/or responsiblity in rugby tended to be control freaks and general idiots. Club rugby had changed significantly from the time where a lot of adolescents who played other sports picked up the game at 16 or 17, to a situation in which a lot of these kids who chose to play club had much less exposure to competitive sport.
The cream of the crop have never been first in line to join the military, or the police force. I spent most of ten years on a drilling rig floor, and my co-workers were generally dyslexic proto-criminals, and not potential high-performance athletes.

As a boy I worked on the farm with a relative who held the DCM, presented by George VI himself, and spent twenty years post-war as a paratrooper. The qualities that made him a good soldier are not the qualities that make an elite athlete.

There are kids who are more than tough and athletic enough to play high-permance rugby in Canada, but there is no structure with which to entice them.

Posts: 542
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 15:10

thatrugbyguy wrote:You guys are at real risk of not qualifying for 2023. Uruguay have played well and look like having a bright future, and may even be the favourites to qualify first next time around ahead of the US. Something has to be done regardless of the cancelled match.



We only qualified for this one because Romania and Spain cheated and got disqualified, We are bad.

Posts: 542
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 15:21

rufusbuck wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
Dude, we have become a soft country. People in this country love this sort of bullshit because they think it fits in with the "Canadian Identity" which has been completely manufactured slowly over the past 30-40 years and is driven by latte sipping idiots in Downtown Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. I've been in the military for 15 years, I joined an organization that was in heavy combat operations and was fighting intense combat as little as a decade ago. I am now subjected daily to PC Bullshit at work and can't even imagine our Armed Forces fielding a combat capable force like we had in Afghanistan. If anything, we still have warfighters but they are all kept hidden in Special Operations Forces and the run of the mill Armed Forces is all about hugs and kisses with touchy feely bullshit. Not saying we should treat people poorly at all and I am a Libertatian that supports, LGBTQ+, Pro Choice, Human Rights, etc but many people use these causes as excuses to be malingerers and lazy sacks now.

I ran a recruit course not too long ago and I was appalled at the fitness level of many young people. It's a sad day when I am nearly twice the age of some of these people and can dust them in any sort of event requiring physical ability and fitness.

The days of us producing a bunch of Jamie Cudmore's and Dan Baugh's are long over. The fact we have no real professional setup and euro pro contracts have dried up is what will hurt us the most. MLR is a start but it's still pays pennies in comparison to a real job.

Any real legit hard ass in this country is out silently making their money in the oil fields, logging camps, farming, fishing, becoming a firefighter, police officer, military, etc. They most certainly are not playing rugby. Why? Because getting needlessly injured means sacrificing massive salaries. I played Rugby still up until two years ago, I got injured and actually missed a deployment which would have been six months tax free in Eastern Europe, that's like $50,000! Yah I was pissed!

Unemployment is at a record low, there are lots of good jobs as all the boomers are retiring. Chauncey O'Toole, Jason Marshall, Jebb Sinclair, John Moonlight, etc. These guys were at the tail ends of their careers sure but they all are still better than the present crop we've got out there.

They all opted for employment over mcdonalds coupons in Langford. Not everyone has rich parents that live in Vancouver and Victoria who can subsidize their adult children's amateur sporting ventures.

Sorry for the rant, just triggered!


I have spent a fair bit of time around adolescents in the last ten years, in both an upper middle-class and an economic precariate-class setting. I didn't find that the kids were soft as a rule in either place. Kids still played hurt, and they were aggressive. The people in positions of authority and/or responsiblity in rugby tended to be control freaks and general idiots. Club rugby had changed significantly from the time where a lot of adolescents who played other sports picked up the game at 16 or 17, to a situation in which a lot of these kids who chose to play club had much less exposure to competitive sport.
The cream of the crop have never been first in line to join the military, or the police force. I spent most of ten years on a drilling rig floor, and my co-workers were generally dyslexic proto-criminals, and not potential high-performance athletes.

As a boy I worked on the farm with a relative who held the DCM, presented by George VI himself, and spent twenty years post-war as a paratrooper. The qualities that made him a good soldier are not the qualities that make an elite athlete.

There are kids who are more than tough and athletic enough to play high-permance rugby in Canada, but there is no structure with which to entice them.



The problem and i hope Cudmore and the Pride solve this, There are too many faker's playing rugby at a fairly decent level who don't deserve to be there.

Posts: 542
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 15:31

Having watched the Japan Scotland game a few times now it makes me realize how poor of a rugby playing nation we are. I was thinking why couldn't we play the game in the same style as Japan but realized we don't have the simple ball skills. Could you imagine any of our backs moving the ball at such pace and skill level? our props off loading and running at lines? It's depressing.

Our front row offer nothing,
Second row were pitiful,
Rumball is decent, Aardon is playing out of position.
Mack didn't play enough (but now its time to move on) McRorie is shit (time to move on). Mackenzie, not a fan

Backs need skills and we don't have them. , I feel for DTH, you can se the frustration in his face, he wants to win so badly.

Posts: 93
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 16:10

snapper37 wrote:The problem and i hope Cudmore and the Pride solve this, There are too many faker's playing rugby at a fairly decent level who don't deserve to be there.


How do you propose that "the Pride" and Cudmore will solve this? The Pride consists of players who have come up as U20 players, it is not a method of generating a wider pool of potential high-performance athletes. Five years ago, or so, Rowing Canada was sending recruiters to high schools across the country to assess potential rowers with no prior rowing background. The Pride is nothing like that. The issue is not fakers, the issue is the terrible level of competition in club rugby and in the hothouse flower age-grade competitions. There are no other players from which to choose. There are players who got noticed in these age-grade competitions years ago, got into the U20 stream, and were groomed to go to the NSMT despite the lack of potential as high-performance athletes.

Not to pick on this guy, but what is the thinking behind this:
"Ilnicki set a new Canada West rushing record during his celebrated campaign, also leading USports Football in rushing touchdowns and carries while playing for the Alberta Golden Bears. He was also an Academic All-Canadian. The Ottawa Redblacks signed him to a CFL contract in January 2018 but he did not survive the cut following training camp.

That in itself is not surprising. Despite an outstanding university career, few Canadian running backs make CFL rosters while competing against NCAA standouts who don’t quite make the NFL. Ilnicki is not renowned for having blazing speed, but he has been praised for his vision, footwork, and ability to break tackles or make yards after contact.

At 5’10” (1.78m) and 220lbs (100kg), Ilnicki likely projects as a center in rugby if he can pick up the nuances of passing quickly"
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2019/0 ... fic-pride/

The salient point of assessment is that he is not fast. He has no discernable rugby acumen, but might pick up the "nuances" of a core skill that is clearly lacking at every level of rugby?

At any given time there are a dozen young men with equivalent attributes to Jeff Hassler in USport football, but there is nothing to attract them to rugby. Unless there is high-perfromance regional development, the "Pacific Pride" (I never miss an opportunity to comment on the great choice of name for a national program) will produce even weaker results than it did last time around, results which included not a single significant WC victory, and a massive thrashing by Italy ten years after the program's creation.

Posts: 169
Joined: Tue, 29 Sep 2015, 21:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 18:36

snapper37 wrote:
rufusbuck wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
Dude, we have become a soft country. People in this country love this sort of bullshit because they think it fits in with the "Canadian Identity" which has been completely manufactured slowly over the past 30-40 years and is driven by latte sipping idiots in Downtown Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. I've been in the military for 15 years, I joined an organization that was in heavy combat operations and was fighting intense combat as little as a decade ago. I am now subjected daily to PC Bullshit at work and can't even imagine our Armed Forces fielding a combat capable force like we had in Afghanistan. If anything, we still have warfighters but they are all kept hidden in Special Operations Forces and the run of the mill Armed Forces is all about hugs and kisses with touchy feely bullshit. Not saying we should treat people poorly at all and I am a Libertatian that supports, LGBTQ+, Pro Choice, Human Rights, etc but many people use these causes as excuses to be malingerers and lazy sacks now.

I ran a recruit course not too long ago and I was appalled at the fitness level of many young people. It's a sad day when I am nearly twice the age of some of these people and can dust them in any sort of event requiring physical ability and fitness.

The days of us producing a bunch of Jamie Cudmore's and Dan Baugh's are long over. The fact we have no real professional setup and euro pro contracts have dried up is what will hurt us the most. MLR is a start but it's still pays pennies in comparison to a real job.

Any real legit hard ass in this country is out silently making their money in the oil fields, logging camps, farming, fishing, becoming a firefighter, police officer, military, etc. They most certainly are not playing rugby. Why? Because getting needlessly injured means sacrificing massive salaries. I played Rugby still up until two years ago, I got injured and actually missed a deployment which would have been six months tax free in Eastern Europe, that's like $50,000! Yah I was pissed!

Unemployment is at a record low, there are lots of good jobs as all the boomers are retiring. Chauncey O'Toole, Jason Marshall, Jebb Sinclair, John Moonlight, etc. These guys were at the tail ends of their careers sure but they all are still better than the present crop we've got out there.

They all opted for employment over mcdonalds coupons in Langford. Not everyone has rich parents that live in Vancouver and Victoria who can subsidize their adult children's amateur sporting ventures.

Sorry for the rant, just triggered!


I have spent a fair bit of time around adolescents in the last ten years, in both an upper middle-class and an economic precariate-class setting. I didn't find that the kids were soft as a rule in either place. Kids still played hurt, and they were aggressive. The people in positions of authority and/or responsiblity in rugby tended to be control freaks and general idiots. Club rugby had changed significantly from the time where a lot of adolescents who played other sports picked up the game at 16 or 17, to a situation in which a lot of these kids who chose to play club had much less exposure to competitive sport.
The cream of the crop have never been first in line to join the military, or the police force. I spent most of ten years on a drilling rig floor, and my co-workers were generally dyslexic proto-criminals, and not potential high-performance athletes.

As a boy I worked on the farm with a relative who held the DCM, presented by George VI himself, and spent twenty years post-war as a paratrooper. The qualities that made him a good soldier are not the qualities that make an elite athlete.

There are kids who are more than tough and athletic enough to play high-permance rugby in Canada, but there is no structure with which to entice them.



The problem and i hope Cudmore and the Pride solve this, There are too many faker's playing rugby at a fairly decent level who don't deserve to be there.


I see the problem as being there aren't enough players and the level isn't good enough.

BC Premier (with which I am most familiar) is down in calibre of play, and some formerly strong clubs have fallen off or are just hanging on. We do not have the rugby infrastructure to turn good athletes into international rugby players. National age grade teams are certainly not part of the solution imo - too many resources spent on too few players.

Posts: 1969
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 00:25

rufusbuck wrote:
snapper37 wrote:The problem and i hope Cudmore and the Pride solve this, There are too many faker's playing rugby at a fairly decent level who don't deserve to be there.


How do you propose that "the Pride" and Cudmore will solve this? The Pride consists of players who have come up as U20 players, it is not a method of generating a wider pool of potential high-performance athletes. Five years ago, or so, Rowing Canada was sending recruiters to high schools across the country to assess potential rowers with no prior rowing background. The Pride is nothing like that. The issue is not fakers, the issue is the terrible level of competition in club rugby and in the hothouse flower age-grade competitions. There are no other players from which to choose. There are players who got noticed in these age-grade competitions years ago, got into the U20 stream, and were groomed to go to the NSMT despite the lack of potential as high-performance athletes.

Not to pick on this guy, but what is the thinking behind this:
"Ilnicki set a new Canada West rushing record during his celebrated campaign, also leading USports Football in rushing touchdowns and carries while playing for the Alberta Golden Bears. He was also an Academic All-Canadian. The Ottawa Redblacks signed him to a CFL contract in January 2018 but he did not survive the cut following training camp.

That in itself is not surprising. Despite an outstanding university career, few Canadian running backs make CFL rosters while competing against NCAA standouts who don’t quite make the NFL. Ilnicki is not renowned for having blazing speed, but he has been praised for his vision, footwork, and ability to break tackles or make yards after contact.

At 5’10” (1.78m) and 220lbs (100kg), Ilnicki likely projects as a center in rugby if he can pick up the nuances of passing quickly"
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2019/0 ... fic-pride/

The salient point of assessment is that he is not fast. He has no discernable rugby acumen, but might pick up the "nuances" of a core skill that is clearly lacking at every level of rugby?

At any given time there are a dozen young men with equivalent attributes to Jeff Hassler in USport football, but there is nothing to attract them to rugby. Unless there is high-perfromance regional development, the "Pacific Pride" (I never miss an opportunity to comment on the great choice of name for a national program) will produce even weaker results than it did last time around, results which included not a single significant WC victory, and a massive thrashing by Italy ten years after the program's creation.


You've got really no solutions. The Pacific Pride program recruiting high level athletes and putting them in a High Performance environment will definitely create a stronger pool of players than the current systems in place. But it needs to be an academy that churns out players and sends them to compete in MLR.

Posts: 93
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 06:07

TheStroBro wrote:You've got really no solutions. The Pacific Pride program recruiting high level athletes and putting them in a High Performance environment will definitely create a stronger pool of players than the current systems in place. But it needs to be an academy that churns out players and sends them to compete in MLR.


Perhaps you have me confused with Jesus. Curious choice of verb you made. What evidence do you have have that the Pride "will" do anything like that? Is the current Pride roster made up of "high level athletes"? If you think that in 2020 potential high-performance Canadian athletes are going to spool their rags and move to Langford to play club rugby in the hopes of one day earning an MLR paycheque, you're hailed right out. MLR has no feeder pool, and this World Cup demonstrated that pretty clearly. Uruguay managed to jump a Fiji team on three days recovery that had been rope-a-doped and shit-canned by Australia. Other than that, the US, Canada and Uruguay stunk on ice. The Pride was inadequate back when Canada still had a decent club structure, failing completely to return Canada to the status it had at the end of the amateur era, and they have next to nothing with which to work now.

A U23 development team, or teams in each region, playing in the top regional club competitions might save Canadian men's rugby, but a single team in one province, on one coast, is not going to cut it.

Posts: 542
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 15:36

rufusbuck wrote:
snapper37 wrote:The problem and i hope Cudmore and the Pride solve this, There are too many faker's playing rugby at a fairly decent level who don't deserve to be there.


How do you propose that "the Pride" and Cudmore will solve this? The Pride consists of players who have come up as U20 players, it is not a method of generating a wider pool of potential high-performance athletes. Five years ago, or so, Rowing Canada was sending recruiters to high schools across the country to assess potential rowers with no prior rowing background. The Pride is nothing like that. The issue is not fakers, the issue is the terrible level of competition in club rugby and in the hothouse flower age-grade competitions. There are no other players from which to choose. There are players who got noticed in these age-grade competitions years ago, got into the U20 stream, and were groomed to go to the NSMT despite the lack of potential as high-performance athletes.

Not to pick on this guy, but what is the thinking behind this:
"Ilnicki set a new Canada West rushing record during his celebrated campaign, also leading USports Football in rushing touchdowns and carries while playing for the Alberta Golden Bears. He was also an Academic All-Canadian. The Ottawa Redblacks signed him to a CFL contract in January 2018 but he did not survive the cut following training camp.

That in itself is not surprising. Despite an outstanding university career, few Canadian running backs make CFL rosters while competing against NCAA standouts who don’t quite make the NFL. Ilnicki is not renowned for having blazing speed, but he has been praised for his vision, footwork, and ability to break tackles or make yards after contact.

At 5’10” (1.78m) and 220lbs (100kg), Ilnicki likely projects as a center in rugby if he can pick up the nuances of passing quickly"
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2019/0 ... fic-pride/

The salient point of assessment is that he is not fast. He has no discernable rugby acumen, but might pick up the "nuances" of a core skill that is clearly lacking at every level of rugby?

At any given time there are a dozen young men with equivalent attributes to Jeff Hassler in USport football, but there is nothing to attract them to rugby. Unless there is high-perfromance regional development, the "Pacific Pride" (I never miss an opportunity to comment on the great choice of name for a national program) will produce even weaker results than it did last time around, results which included not a single significant WC victory, and a massive thrashing by Italy ten years after the program's creation.



The last rendition of the pride under David Clarke did a great job developing players not only for the national 15's team but also the 7's team
John Tait
Jon Theil
Colin Robertson
Morgan Williams
Sean Fauth
Nik Witkowski
Kyle Nichols
Kevin Tkatchuk
Jeff Williams
Dave Ramsey
Adam Van Staveren
John Cannon
David Moonlight
Jamie Cudmore
Dan Baugh

Those are just off the top of my head. There are heaps of players that went back to their clubs to improve their standard.

One thing the Pride will do is weed out the players that can't play at the national level before they get there. Their are players that we can all agree on that are going on tours because A they shine in their provinces and B there was nobody else. And i'm sure we can agree some of these players are either weak players players, weak trainers or have zero mental resiliency. My hope is that the Pride will weed these guys out and hopefully increase the skill level and training standard of the good ones, just as it did before.

I agree we have a player number issue. having or not having the Pride isn't going to make them materialize as that problem is largely a club vs school vs provincial age grade issue. But having the Pride help build a stronger National team will excite kids to play the game, just think what this world cup will do for the Japanese youth numbers. We currently suck, we were easily the worst team in Japan and are trying to save face because we shovelled some sand. which im sure isn't drawing kids to the game.


The MLR is nice and hopefully it continues to grow, but realistically we need two more franchises (One on each coast?). If the Pride can develop players that can make those teams and they continue to get better awesome. But as it stands the MLR isn't going to sign unproven 19 year olds, so I don't see way having the pride for them to go to is a problem.

Posts: 93
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 18:58

snapper37 wrote:
The last rendition of the pride under David Clarke did a great job developing players not only for the national 15's team but also the 7's team
John Tait
Jon Theil
Colin Robertson
Morgan Williams
Sean Fauth
Nik Witkowski
Kyle Nichols
Kevin Tkatchuk
Jeff Williams
Dave Ramsey
Adam Van Staveren
John Cannon
David Moonlight
Jamie Cudmore
Dan Baugh

Those are just off the top of my head. There are heaps of players that went back to their clubs to improve their standard.

One thing the Pride will do is weed out the players that can't play at the national level before they get there. Their are players that we can all agree on that are going on tours because A they shine in their provinces and B there was nobody else. And i'm sure we can agree some of these players are either weak players players, weak trainers or have zero mental resiliency. My hope is that the Pride will weed these guys out and hopefully increase the skill level and training standard of the good ones, just as it did before.

I agree we have a player number issue. having or not having the Pride isn't going to make them materialize as that problem is largely a club vs school vs provincial age grade issue. But having the Pride help build a stronger National team will excite kids to play the game, just think what this world cup will do for the Japanese youth numbers. We currently suck, we were easily the worst team in Japan and are trying to save face because we shovelled some sand. which im sure isn't drawing kids to the game.


The MLR is nice and hopefully it continues to grow, but realistically we need two more franchises (One on each coast?). If the Pride can develop players that can make those teams and they continue to get better awesome. But as it stands the MLR isn't going to sign unproven 19 year olds, so I don't see way having the pride for them to go to is a problem.


The NSMT tanked under Clark. He got fired after the team was smashed in the 2001 Pac Rim, and the players whose poor performance got him sacked went on strike. They got destroyed by Argentina in the lead-up and lost to Italy in the '03 World Cup. Eight years into the Pride's existence they got destroyed by Italy in 2004.
Graduating players to the NSMT was hardly a benchmark of success given that the Pride recruited the top prospects from across the country. What other avenue existed for Canadian players to get on the NSMT if not through the Pride in that era?

Who are these players that the Pride is going to develop now? The ones who can't get out of the World Trophy, when they manage to beat the even worse US and qualify, and who now lose to Chile, Portugal and Uruguay?

Posts: 169
Joined: Tue, 29 Sep 2015, 21:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 19:36

rufusbuck wrote:
snapper37 wrote:
The last rendition of the pride under David Clarke did a great job developing players not only for the national 15's team but also the 7's team
John Tait
Jon Theil
Colin Robertson
Morgan Williams
Sean Fauth
Nik Witkowski
Kyle Nichols
Kevin Tkatchuk
Jeff Williams
Dave Ramsey
Adam Van Staveren
John Cannon
David Moonlight
Jamie Cudmore
Dan Baugh

Those are just off the top of my head. There are heaps of players that went back to their clubs to improve their standard.

One thing the Pride will do is weed out the players that can't play at the national level before they get there. Their are players that we can all agree on that are going on tours because A they shine in their provinces and B there was nobody else. And i'm sure we can agree some of these players are either weak players players, weak trainers or have zero mental resiliency. My hope is that the Pride will weed these guys out and hopefully increase the skill level and training standard of the good ones, just as it did before.

I agree we have a player number issue. having or not having the Pride isn't going to make them materialize as that problem is largely a club vs school vs provincial age grade issue. But having the Pride help build a stronger National team will excite kids to play the game, just think what this world cup will do for the Japanese youth numbers. We currently suck, we were easily the worst team in Japan and are trying to save face because we shovelled some sand. which im sure isn't drawing kids to the game.


The MLR is nice and hopefully it continues to grow, but realistically we need two more franchises (One on each coast?). If the Pride can develop players that can make those teams and they continue to get better awesome. But as it stands the MLR isn't going to sign unproven 19 year olds, so I don't see way having the pride for them to go to is a problem.


The NSMT tanked under Clark. He got fired after the team was smashed in the 2001 Pac Rim, and the players whose poor performance got him sacked went on strike. They got destroyed by Argentina in the lead-up and lost to Italy in the '03 World Cup. Eight years into the Pride's existence they got destroyed by Italy in 2004.
Graduating players to the NSMT was hardly a benchmark of success given that the Pride recruited the top prospects from across the country. What other avenue existed for Canadian players to get on the NSMT if not through the Pride in that era?

Who are these players that the Pride is going to develop now? The ones who can't get out of the World Trophy, when they manage to beat the even worse US and qualify, and who now lose to Chile, Portugal and Uruguay?


That strike was weird. Clark was a strange cat from accounts I have heard.

He was also in a conflict as selecting Pride grads for caps was a way to show the program was working.

The 2003 World Cup team also had a weird energy to it - it was a sign of things to come.

One of my concerns with the Pride is that it bottlenecks the selection process too early. I think some players get discouraged at a young age when they don't make provinical or national teams, and we lose them quickly. The best player at a certain position at 18 isn't bound to be the best at 24. So retaining more players has been an issue.

I also think in general we spend too many resources on too few players. The Pride is a manifestation of this in my opinion.

Posts: 1969
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 21:08

rufusbuck wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:You've got really no solutions. The Pacific Pride program recruiting high level athletes and putting them in a High Performance environment will definitely create a stronger pool of players than the current systems in place. But it needs to be an academy that churns out players and sends them to compete in MLR.


Perhaps you have me confused with Jesus. Curious choice of verb you made. What evidence do you have have that the Pride "will" do anything like that? Is the current Pride roster made up of "high level athletes"? If you think that in 2020 potential high-performance Canadian athletes are going to spool their rags and move to Langford to play club rugby in the hopes of one day earning an MLR paycheque, you're hailed right out. MLR has no feeder pool, and this World Cup demonstrated that pretty clearly. Uruguay managed to jump a Fiji team on three days recovery that had been rope-a-doped and shit-canned by Australia. Other than that, the US, Canada and Uruguay stunk on ice. The Pride was inadequate back when Canada still had a decent club structure, failing completely to return Canada to the status it had at the end of the amateur era, and they have next to nothing with which to work now.

A U23 development team, or teams in each region, playing in the top regional club competitions might save Canadian men's rugby, but a single team in one province, on one coast, is not going to cut it.


The feeder pool of domestic players for both Canada and the US is in the collegiate system. There are solid rugby athletes coming out of the OUA and at UBC.

Seems to me they got at least one high level athlete to take up the offer of the Pride. Then you've got Ngawati with 7s. MLR has played a total of 24 regular season games. Also, it's on Kingsley for choosing his amateur favorites over professionals that just went through a 16 week regular season campaign.

Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon, 02 Jun 2014, 03:08
Location: Ontario
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 21:40

DTH has retired from international play. Disappointing but not surprising, would have liked to see him sent off in better fashion and not on a cancelled game, at least he got to play against South Africa one time as a consolation.

Suspect a few others might leave rapidly as well.

Posts: 169
Joined: Tue, 29 Sep 2015, 21:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 22:07

LittleGuy wrote:DTH has retired from international play. Disappointing but not surprising, would have liked to see him sent off in better fashion and not on a cancelled game, at least he got to play against South Africa one time as a consolation.

Suspect a few others might leave rapidly as well.


I would be in favour of culling pretty much any player who doesn't fit into RWC 2023 plans. That was a veteran laden team we sent.

Posts: 93
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 23:09

TheStroBro wrote:
rufusbuck wrote:The feeder pool of domestic players for both Canada and the US is in the collegiate system. There are solid rugby athletes coming out of the OUA and at UBC.

Seems to me they got at least one high level athlete to take up the offer of the Pride. Then you've got Ngawati with 7s. MLR has played a total of 24 regular season games. Also, it's on Kingsley for choosing his amateur favorites over professionals that just went through a 16 week regular season campaign.


Funny stuff. I started to notice the word “solid” being used as a catch-all descriptor by rugby people about five years ago. I don’t know what it means, but if it applies to the rugby players coming out of Canadian universities, I know it doesn’t mean fast, agile or powerful. I’ll take you at your word that MLR is being fed by collegiate rugby, which is about like selling airplanes made of sticks and mud. Who is this “high level” athlete with the Pride? I certainly haven’t seen evidence of this phenomenon. Watch the Canada-Russia game played in Ottawa and try to second-guess Jones on his MLR rejections, or the defensive display by MLR players against Italy and South Africa. If collegiate rugby had been the feeder, please believe me, you would have never heard of Dan Baugh or Jamie Cudmore.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 3 guests