Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

General topic for African Rugby

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 28 Dec 2019, 02:17

It is unlikely Madagascar will ever qualify for a rugby world cup. They are fairly small people. Kenya and Algeria both have a lot more potential in my opinion. Both have a chance of qualifying for a rugby world cup.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Edgar » Sat, 28 Dec 2019, 14:25

It is unlikely Madagascar will ever qualify for a rugby world cup. They are fairly small people. Kenya and Algeria both have a lot more potential in my opinion. Both have a chance of qualifying for a rugby world cup.


This has also been said about Japan, of course. Former Japan coach and national director, honorary chairman of the Asian RU and (unsuccessful) WWII kamikaze pilot Shiggy Konno often commented on his people's lack of size. Madagascar's shortcomings (excuse the pun) probably have more to do with the way the game is set up there. I'm pretty sure few of those 164 clubs in the capital have more than one senior team, for instance.

Kenya (watch this space for updates):

This is the 10th edition of the Webuye 10s.

Main cup semis pairing

Lugulu Vs Butere
Webuye vs Bukembe

Quarterfinal results
Lugulu 5-0 Ndalu
Butere 26-0 Misikhu
Nalondo 0-5 Webuye
Segere 7-22 Bukembe

Lugulu 14-0 Kimaiti
Segere 19-0 Bungoma Select
Bungoma 15-0 Maliki
Nalondo 17-12 Misikhu
Bukembe 20-5 Kimilili
Ndalu 22-0Turbo
Butere 14-0 Bungoma MT w/o
Webuye 36-0 Olympus

Results
Lugulu 15-0Bungoma Select
Butere 44-0 Olympus
SeGere 14-0Kimaiti
Bungoma 10-19 Nalondo
Misikhu 5-5 Maliki
Bukembe 22-5 Turbo
Ndalu 5-5 Kimilili
Webuye 14-0 Bungoma MT W/O

Lugulu 12-0 Segere
Bungoma Select 14-0 Kimaiti
Bungoma 0-24 Misikhu
Nalondo 7-20 Maliki
Bukembe 10-7 Ndalu
Turbo 0-12 Kimilili
Butere 14-0 Webuye
Olympus 14-0 Bungoma MT W/O

https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/28/ ... -pairings/

Kenya 7s seasonal top scorers of the decade https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/28/ ... he-decade/

Looks who showed up in Cameroon :shock: Former French international Serge Betsen has set up a rugby academy in his homeland:

Image

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 28 Dec 2019, 18:01

Edgar wrote:
It is unlikely Madagascar will ever qualify for a rugby world cup. They are fairly small people. Kenya and Algeria both have a lot more potential in my opinion. Both have a chance of qualifying for a rugby world cup.


This has also been said about Japan, of course. Former Japan coach and national director, honorary chairman of the Asian RU and (unsuccessful) WWII kamikaze pilot Shiggy Konno often commented on his people's lack of size. Madagascar's shortcomings (excuse the pun) probably have more to do with the way the game is set up there. I'm pretty sure few of those 164 clubs in the capital have more than one senior team, for instance.

Kenya (watch this space for updates):

This is the 10th edition of the Webuye 10s.

Main cup semis pairing

Lugulu Vs Butere
Webuye vs Bukembe

Quarterfinal results
Lugulu 5-0 Ndalu
Butere 26-0 Misikhu
Nalondo 0-5 Webuye
Segere 7-22 Bukembe

Lugulu 14-0 Kimaiti
Segere 19-0 Bungoma Select
Bungoma 15-0 Maliki
Nalondo 17-12 Misikhu
Bukembe 20-5 Kimilili
Ndalu 22-0Turbo
Butere 14-0 Bungoma MT w/o
Webuye 36-0 Olympus

Results
Lugulu 15-0Bungoma Select
Butere 44-0 Olympus
SeGere 14-0Kimaiti
Bungoma 10-19 Nalondo
Misikhu 5-5 Maliki
Bukembe 22-5 Turbo
Ndalu 5-5 Kimilili
Webuye 14-0 Bungoma MT W/O

Lugulu 12-0 Segere
Bungoma Select 14-0 Kimaiti
Bungoma 0-24 Misikhu
Nalondo 7-20 Maliki
Bukembe 10-7 Ndalu
Turbo 0-12 Kimilili
Butere 14-0 Webuye
Olympus 14-0 Bungoma MT W/O

https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/28/ ... -pairings/

Kenya 7s seasonal top scorers of the decade https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/28/ ... he-decade/

Looks who showed up in Cameroon :shock: Former French international Serge Betsen has set up a rugby academy in his homeland:

Image


The big difference between Japan and Madagascar is Japan could afford to buy a tier 1 standard national team. That's not to take anything away from what they have achieved, but Madagascar does not have the means to attract Tongans, Kiwis and Saffas.
However, I do think that if there was a national rugby academy set up in Madagascar aimed at developing the next generation, with dietitians and conditioning, they might be able to develop bigger players. Also there must be some big people on that island. They need to be identified at a young age, coached, fed etc.
And even after all that investment there is still no guarantee they could beat Namibia.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Edgar » Sat, 28 Dec 2019, 20:34

I agree with you that size is a factor in rugby. Pacific Islanders are proof of this on their own. But it is not the only factor, and probably not even the most important. Malagasies compare in stature to people across Asia and Latin America. That's more than half the world's population right there. Only at the top level is the game dominated by Northern Europeans, Pacific Islanders and (increasingly) Sub-Saharan Africans. What is for certain is that a nation of 26 million could find larger players if it had the right set-up and style of rugby that were more conducive to this. Right now their rugby is reminiscent of the Pacific Islands in the amateur era - free-running helter skelter with little emphasis on the set pieces. What they need is a complete overhaul of the club scene with amalgamations to provide more depth, and perhaps even an 8-team super league (franchised?), along with some foreign coaching expertise to help them develop their tight forward play. This is where I think World Rugby could help out. If you build it, they will come . . .

French basketball club Espoir Chalon/Saone has a 2.03m teenager from Madagascar in its squad https://www.elanchalon.com/joueur/sitra ... toanina-2/ .

Webuye 10s results (Kenya):

Cup final

Bukembe 12-7 Butere

Third Place playoffs

Lugulu 21-0 Webuye

Fifth place playoffs

Ndalu 5-0 Nalondo

Junior Cup final

Bukembe 14-7 Bokoli

Cup Semis

Butere 10-7 Lugulu

Webuye 5-7 Bukembe

Fifth place semis

Ndalu 27-5 Misikhu

Nalondo 12-5 Segere

Challenge Trophy

Olympus 0-14 Bungoma

Maliki 14-21 Kimilili

https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/28/ ... ebuye-10s/

& that's a wrap :thumbup: 8-)

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 28 Dec 2019, 21:06

Edgar wrote:I agree with you that size is a factor in rugby. Pacific Islanders are proof of this on their own. But it is not the only factor, and probably not even the most important. Malagasies compare in stature to people across Asia and Latin America. That's more than half the world's population right there. Only at the top level is the game dominated by Northern Europeans, Pacific Islanders and (increasingly) Sub-Saharan Africans. What is for certain is that a nation of 26 million could find larger players if it had the right set-up and style of rugby that were more conducive to this. Right now their rugby is reminiscent of the Pacific Islands in the amateur era - free-running helter skelter with little emphasis on the set pieces. What they need is a complete overhaul of the club scene with amalgamations to provide more depth, and perhaps even an 8-team super league (franchised?), along with some foreign coaching expertise to help them develop their tight forward play. This is where I think World Rugby could help out. If you build it, they will come . . .

French basketball club Espoir Chalon/Saone has a 2.03m teenager from Madagascar in its squad https://www.elanchalon.com/joueur/sitra ... toanina-2/ .

Webuye 10s results (Kenya):

Cup final

Bukembe 12-7 Butere

Third Place playoffs

Lugulu 21-0 Webuye

Fifth place playoffs

Ndalu 5-0 Nalondo

Junior Cup final

Bukembe 14-7 Bokoli

Cup Semis

Butere 10-7 Lugulu

Webuye 5-7 Bukembe

Fifth place semis

Ndalu 27-5 Misikhu

Nalondo 12-5 Segere

Challenge Trophy

Olympus 0-14 Bungoma

Maliki 14-21 Kimilili

https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/28/ ... ebuye-10s/

& that's a wrap :thumbup: 8-)


Wow, that guy is enormous. I take your point. The potential talent must be there. What Madagascar does already have is a love of rugby, which, judging by the size of their crowds, is second to none in Africa.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 03:36

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Edgar wrote:I agree with you that size is a factor in rugby. Pacific Islanders are proof of this on their own. But it is not the only factor, and probably not even the most important. Malagasies compare in stature to people across Asia and Latin America. That's more than half the world's population right there. Only at the top level is the game dominated by Northern Europeans, Pacific Islanders and (increasingly) Sub-Saharan Africans. What is for certain is that a nation of 26 million could find larger players if it had the right set-up and style of rugby that were more conducive to this. Right now their rugby is reminiscent of the Pacific Islands in the amateur era - free-running helter skelter with little emphasis on the set pieces. What they need is a complete overhaul of the club scene with amalgamations to provide more depth, and perhaps even an 8-team super league (franchised?), along with some foreign coaching expertise to help them develop their tight forward play. This is where I think World Rugby could help out. If you build it, they will come . . .

French basketball club Espoir Chalon/Saone has a 2.03m teenager from Madagascar in its squad https://www.elanchalon.com/joueur/sitra ... toanina-2/ .

Webuye 10s results (Kenya):

Cup final

Bukembe 12-7 Butere

Third Place playoffs

Lugulu 21-0 Webuye

Fifth place playoffs

Ndalu 5-0 Nalondo

Junior Cup final

Bukembe 14-7 Bokoli

Cup Semis

Butere 10-7 Lugulu

Webuye 5-7 Bukembe

Fifth place semis

Ndalu 27-5 Misikhu

Nalondo 12-5 Segere

Challenge Trophy

Olympus 0-14 Bungoma

Maliki 14-21 Kimilili

https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/28/ ... ebuye-10s/

& that's a wrap :thumbup: 8-)


Wow, that guy is enormous. I take your point. The potential talent must be there. What Madagascar does already have is a love of rugby, which, judging by the size of their crowds, is second to none in Africa.


Madagascar has largely been neglected by WR, with enough support and application of interest they'd be able to move away from their amateur model into a fully pro domestic model, which would reap rewards fairly quickly. Alas they're not T! or American enough for WRugby or Pichot to seriously care about them.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 03:40

Edgar wrote:Looks who showed up in Cameroon :shock: Former French international Serge Betsen has set up a rugby academy in his homeland:

Image


France is Africa's big hope. England is exceptionally good at getting ethnic minorities into rugby (I believe that there are well over twice as many West Indies heritage Englishmen playing pro rugby than are playing pro cricket (which is ridiculous given that the Windies' sport is cricket), as part of that there is a link lost with their parents or grandparents' homeland (which is why despite the large number of Nigerian heritage players they contribute little towards Nigerian rugby). Whereas with France it seems that the link is maintained a lot better.

I suppose the flip side argument is that most T1 Nationsn are British colonies, whereas the French failed to bring Algeria/Tunisia/Madagascar etc up to T2 standard.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 04:46

Blurandski wrote:
Edgar wrote:Looks who showed up in Cameroon :shock: Former French international Serge Betsen has set up a rugby academy in his homeland:

Image


France is Africa's big hope. England is exceptionally good at getting ethnic minorities into rugby (I believe that there are well over twice as many West Indies heritage Englishmen playing pro rugby than are playing pro cricket (which is ridiculous given that the Windies' sport is cricket), as part of that there is a link lost with their parents or grandparents' homeland (which is why despite the large number of Nigerian heritage players they contribute little towards Nigerian rugby). Whereas with France it seems that the link is maintained a lot better.

I suppose the flip side argument is that most T1 Nationsn are British colonies, whereas the French failed to bring Algeria/Tunisia/Madagascar etc up to T2 standard.


It would not take much for France to build a very strong Algerian team, strong enough to qualify for France 2023. There are millions of French people of Algerian decent. Whether they want to do that or not is a different matter, but they could.
Something I would like to see in the rugby calendar is an annual north Africa Tri Nations. Morocco and Tunisia are historically two of Africa's strongest teams, and Algeria are up and coming. African countries should all play in regional tournaments to save on travel costs and build local friendly rivalries. Eastern / Southern Africa have been doing this for a while with the Victoria Cup.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Edgar » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 14:27

Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would not take much for France to build a very strong Algerian team, strong enough to qualify for France 2023. There are millions of French people of Algerian decent. Whether they want to do that or not is a different matter, but they could.
Something I would like to see in the rugby calendar is an annual north Africa Tri Nations. Morocco and Tunisia are historically two of Africa's strongest teams, and Algeria are up and coming. African countries should all play in regional tournaments to save on travel costs and build local friendly rivalries. Eastern / Southern Africa have been doing this for a while with the Victoria Cup.


Maghrebi Tri Nations already happened - twice - in 2016 and 2017 in Oran, Algeria. Presumably the choice of venue was designed to help get Algerian rugby off the ground. Morocco's Atlas Lions won both times although the competition was very tight. It appears to have been abandoned since, however. Not sure why, but the games I saw via live streaming were played in an empty stadium. Most of the players would've been France-based.

The domestic scenes of these countries is very small, and Algeria is not yet affiliated to World Rugby, to my knowledge, suggesting they don't meet the basic requirements (which include a functioning domestic competition). Morocco and Tunisia joined FIRA in the 1970s, I believe, when it was administered by France. Probably the idea was to provide match practice for many more players involved in the French leagues. They switched to Africa at the turn of the century when FIRA became the ENC - minus France.

It is my understanding that Ivory Coast, Senegal and other Francophone nations in West Africa are heavily-reliant on France-based players. So why not stage a tournament in France? I hear you cry. The odd match has indeed been staged between "African" teams in La Republique, but a relatively high profile championship would be giving the game away entirely that these are not really African teams. Too rugby leaguesque even for France, it seems.

Kenya 7s team of the Decade: https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/29/ ... he-decade/

Kenya 7s year in Review: https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/29/ ... in-review/
Last edited by Edgar on Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 14:31

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Blurandski wrote:
Edgar wrote:Looks who showed up in Cameroon :shock: Former French international Serge Betsen has set up a rugby academy in his homeland:

Image


France is Africa's big hope. England is exceptionally good at getting ethnic minorities into rugby (I believe that there are well over twice as many West Indies heritage Englishmen playing pro rugby than are playing pro cricket (which is ridiculous given that the Windies' sport is cricket), as part of that there is a link lost with their parents or grandparents' homeland (which is why despite the large number of Nigerian heritage players they contribute little towards Nigerian rugby). Whereas with France it seems that the link is maintained a lot better.

I suppose the flip side argument is that most T1 Nationsn are British colonies, whereas the French failed to bring Algeria/Tunisia/Madagascar etc up to T2 standard.


It would not take much for France to build a very strong Algerian team, strong enough to qualify for France 2023. There are millions of French people of Algerian decent. Whether they want to do that or not is a different matter, but they could.
Something I would like to see in the rugby calendar is an annual north Africa Tri Nations. Morocco and Tunisia are historically two of Africa's strongest teams, and Algeria are up and coming. African countries should all play in regional tournaments to save on travel costs and build local friendly rivalries. Eastern / Southern Africa have been doing this for a while with the Victoria Cup.


Perhaps the North African teams can start by playing some games in France against some clubs? If it’s in an area with lots of Algerians, Moroccans, etc. then it could give them some connection to their home country.

Re: the height issue, I think this is really overblown in most cases. Sure, height is a big deal (for certain positions) but people tend to focus too much on a country’s average height. Usually this is weighed down a lot by a large group of short people - it doesn’t mean that there are little to no tall people.

This is interesting timing because I’m in Colombia right now and was just thinking of this. The average height is 5’6” (170cm) and I’m 6’0”. However, there are also plenty of people who are taller than I am and I have never felt like I was a giant amongst children. I’m on the coast where there are fewer people or European descent - surely in Bogota and Medellin there are many taller people as those cities are more metropolitan. I have noticed that especially in Latin America the people of indigenous background are shorter but they do not make up the majority of the population in most countries.

So yeah, tall people exist in every country. Some have more so it’s easier for them to have a healthy crop of tall people in their player pool but you can find the tall players if you need to. The Colombian national basketball team manages to do this - the height range for their forwards are anywhere from 6’6” to 7’0”. Sure those players are nowhere near as good as NBA caliber players but in terms of height alone all you need for a basketball team are 5-10 tall players (and for a rugby team 15-23).

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 15:13

A lot of French people of Algerian descent are Jews and ethnic French, who fled for their lives. Now I wouldn't want to presume anything about anyone's identity, but it is quite possible that many of these people have no interest in representing the country their grandparents fled from. In Britain the descendants of Ugandan Asians are about the most patriotic Brits you will meet. I can imagine there being equivalent sentiments amongst many French people who would qualify through an Algerian granny.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 15:18

There are different waves of French-Algerians. Of course there are those who had to fled in the 1960s, but the flow has kept going since then, it wasn't a single wave.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby 4N » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 15:40

Chester-Donnelly wrote:A lot of French people of Algerian descent are Jews and ethnic French, who fled for their lives. Now I wouldn't want to presume anything about anyone's identity, but it is quite possible that many of these people have no interest in representing the country their grandparents fled from. In Britain the descendants of Ugandan Asians are about the most patriotic Brits you will meet. I can imagine there being equivalent sentiments amongst many French people who would qualify through an Algerian granny.


Those are pieds noirs.

French-Algerians make up most of the Algerian soccer team. Look up a video of the celebrations in France when they won the African Cup of Nations.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 17:53

Was there rugby in Algeria before independence/civil war? It seems odd rugby has solid roots in Morocco and Tunisia and not in Algeria. I guess the civil war is the answer.
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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Edgar » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 08:09

victorsra wrote:Was there rugby in Algeria before independence/civil war? It seems odd rugby has solid roots in Morocco and Tunisia and not in Algeria. I guess the civil war is the answer.


Yes, there was, but exclusively among the French, and quickly died out after their departure, which is not surprising, given the particularly acrimonious nature of the War of Independence. The game was not reinstated until the current century, partly as a result of inclusion in the Olympics program. I was surprised to find quite a lot of info on Wiki about this, though one of the pages looks like it's come through an online translation service and doesn't make sense in part. Apparently they only have 6 clubs. Morocco joined FIRA earlier than I thought, way back in the late 60s, and beat all of the teams at one time or another - excepting France A. Tunisia joined a little later than I'd imagined, in 1979, but also did well, spending most of their time in the first division and stunning Romania in 1986, when the Oaks were still at their height.

Perhaps the North African teams can start by playing some games in France against some clubs? If it’s in an area with lots of Algerians, Moroccans, etc. then it could give them some connection to their home country.


Playing friendlies against top French clubs seems like a no-brainer but would be counterproductive to World Rugby's intention to integrate them more fully into Africa - even though the bulk of the players are still France-based. & with pretty much no interest being shown by the local communities, including them in the AIs (against 2nd tier opposition) probably isn't a viable option at this stage either. These are very conservative, cash-strapped nations in which the vast majority of the populace are undoubtedly oblivious to the game's existence. I've no idea how far they've got in introducing rugby to schools, though that would be key to its future in the region.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 09:05

Edgar wrote:
victorsra wrote:Was there rugby in Algeria before independence/civil war? It seems odd rugby has solid roots in Morocco and Tunisia and not in Algeria. I guess the civil war is the answer.


Yes, there was, but exclusively among the French, and quickly died out after their departure, which is not surprising, given the particularly acrimonious nature of the War of Independence. The game was not reinstated until the current century, partly as a result of inclusion in the Olympics program. I was surprised to find quite a lot of info on Wiki about this, though one of the pages looks like it's come through an online translation service and doesn't make sense in part. Apparently they only have 6 clubs. Morocco joined FIRA earlier than I thought, way back in the late 60s, and beat all of the teams at one time or another - excepting France A. Tunisia joined a little later than I'd imagined, in 1979, but also did well, spending most of their time in the first division and stunning Romania in 1986, when the Oaks were still at their height.

Perhaps the North African teams can start by playing some games in France against some clubs? If it’s in an area with lots of Algerians, Moroccans, etc. then it could give them some connection to their home country.


Playing friendlies against top French clubs seems like a no-brainer but would be counterproductive to World Rugby's intention to integrate them more fully into Africa - even though the bulk of the players are still France-based. & with pretty much no interest being shown by the local communities, including them in the AIs (against 2nd tier opposition) probably isn't a viable option at this stage either. These are very conservative, cash-strapped nations in which the vast majority of the populace are undoubtedly oblivious to the game's existence. I've no idea how far they've got in introducing rugby to schools, though that would be key to its future in the region.


Have a look at the Algeria Rugby Federation Facebook Page. They are very active, starting from nothing. They have introduced rugby to schools and universities. Some of the translations are quite funny; whatever the word is for region or conference is being translated as chicken and hen. They seem to be doing everything they can to establish rugby in Algeria. There is a huge mismatch between the national team which does not have any Algeria based players and is potentially very strong, and the domestic set up.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 12:45

4N wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:A lot of French people of Algerian descent are Jews and ethnic French, who fled for their lives. Now I wouldn't want to presume anything about anyone's identity, but it is quite possible that many of these people have no interest in representing the country their grandparents fled from. In Britain the descendants of Ugandan Asians are about the most patriotic Brits you will meet. I can imagine there being equivalent sentiments amongst many French people who would qualify through an Algerian granny.


Those are pieds noirs.

French-Algerians make up most of the Algerian soccer team. Look up a video of the celebrations in France when they won the African Cup of Nations.


There's currently 485K people with algerian nationality living in France.
In 2011, an estimation gave 1907K people having at least one grand-parent being algerian living in France.

Talking about high level players with algerian roots, there are Rabah Slimani, Sofiane Guitoune, Swan Rebbadj, Kylan Hamdaoui, Mohamed Haouas, etc etc

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Edgar » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 15:35

Perhaps this should go in the Anthropology thread, but Maghrebis are also considered to be among the most ethnically-mixed people in the world. The native population is Berber, apparently related to Arabs though not part of the Semitic language family. But many today also have some Arab and French ancestry as well, of course, along with Roman and Germanic as a result of much earlier invasions, Spanish from the returning Moors during the Reconquest, Turkish from the Ottoman period, and so on. Certainly size does not seem to be a problem for them, as one Abdel Benazzi would testify. ;)

Kenya Simba & the international season of debutants https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/30/ ... debutants/

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 16:49

Edgar wrote:Perhaps this should go in the Anthropology thread, but Maghrebis are also considered to be among the most ethnically-mixed people in the world. The native population is Berber, apparently related to Arabs though not part of the Semitic language family. But many today also have some Arab and French ancestry as well, of course, along with Roman and Germanic as a result of much earlier invasions, Spanish from the returning Moors during the Reconquest, Turkish from the Ottoman period, and so on. Certainly size does not seem to be a problem for them, as one Abdel Benazzi would testify. ;)

Kenya Simba & the international season of debutants https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/30/ ... debutants/


Linguistically Algeria is also very interesting (we may need a linguistics thread). The official languages are Arabic and the Berber language. The language that most people speak is a hybrid of Arabic, French and Berber. But that is not a codified language and there seems to be no love or pride for it. The authorities are trying to remove French, even to the extent of replacing it with English as the primary foreign language. French is the language of the colonisers! The language of the other colonisers, the Arabs, is held in high esteem. But most Algerians cannot speak the Levant form of Arabic which they regard as a superior language to their own.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 17:33

I know one of the best Algerian football clubs, Jeunesse Sportive de Kabylie, is the club from the main Berber region and represents the identity. The IOR in the middle of their badge is Berber language
Image

But don't know if the Kabylie region has rugby.
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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 17:38

victorsra wrote:I know one of the best Algerian football clubs, Jeunesse Sportive de Kabylie, is the club from the main Berber region and represents the identity. The IOR in the middle of their badge is Berber language
Image

But don't know if the Kabylie region has rugby.


Is there a regional language map?

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 17:41

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 17:46

Fantastic. I'm assuming the languages not called Arabic are Berber / Amazigh languages.

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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 17:50

I assume the same.

Important to note that Arabic is extremely diverse language at the point that spoken Arabic is not totaly inteligible from country to country.
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Re: General topic for African Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 18:46

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Edgar wrote:Perhaps this should go in the Anthropology thread, but Maghrebis are also considered to be among the most ethnically-mixed people in the world. The native population is Berber, apparently related to Arabs though not part of the Semitic language family. But many today also have some Arab and French ancestry as well, of course, along with Roman and Germanic as a result of much earlier invasions, Spanish from the returning Moors during the Reconquest, Turkish from the Ottoman period, and so on. Certainly size does not seem to be a problem for them, as one Abdel Benazzi would testify. ;)

Kenya Simba & the international season of debutants https://www.scrummage.co.ke/2019/12/30/ ... debutants/


Linguistically Algeria is also very interesting (we may need a linguistics thread). The official languages are Arabic and the Berber language. The language that most people speak is a hybrid of Arabic, French and Berber. But that is not a codified language and there seems to be no love or pride for it. The authorities are trying to remove French, even to the extent of replacing it with English as the primary foreign language. French is the language of the colonisers! The language of the other colonisers, the Arabs, is held in high esteem. But most Algerians cannot speak the Levant form of Arabic which they regard as a superior language to their own.


Most of the Algeria population is Arab, so you can't really say "other colonisers". There everyone was an invader a day or another... More or less as everywhere in the world :D

One may notice too that situation with kabyle is difficult in Algeria. Some are Christians, some want more freedom, and central state is not very ... accommodating.

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