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New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 15:45

Zhenya_Zima wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:And this Russia twitter banter is appalling https://twitter.com/russiarugby/status/ ... 4545918977 "#RWC2019: We would like to thank everyone for the support, most of all the fans of Spain & Romania for kind words since original decision. When we take the field in Japan, please know we'll be leaving some of ourselves out there for you, the people who prove #RugbyisDifferent"


Really? Would you have preferred they posted a giant picture of semi-naked, oiled-up Vlad P., stamping on a Romania jersey and a Spanish child's face while giving the finger and saying "ho ho ho! you done fucked up good, suckaz"?

How do you consider this option for RUR: Shut up and skipping smart banter?

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 18:49

I feel for the fans and players of both countries, this is a tough day. But to me is the right decision. WR going forward should have a data base for all players who have been claimed, it shouldn't be that hard to do.

Canada should put a Romanian patch on it's sleeve, as we all know Canada is sitting in a much better place now because of this. :)

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 20:35

Please let me break my vow of silence now that the topic is over just to highlight how Belgium has been able to escape any real punishment (suspended fine, never in RWC race, no relegation) in spite of fielding FIVE clear-cut ineligible players for three straight seasons, including the 2016 RET campaign where they earned promotion. To see Romania potentially facing the relegation playoff against Portugal is an insult to common sense.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 21:03

WR says clearly that in their eyes there is no diference beetween 1 Faka of România, 2 Frenchies of Spain(+ 1 Grammatico from the past) and 5 grandfathers of Belgium.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 22:37

I've read the decision and I've understood it. I just keep thinking it's wrong.

They've flown under the radar while Russia, Romania and Spain battled and weren't punished at all for their multiple errors. Not only these were more severe than Romania (Fakaosilea complied with residence criteria) and Spain (Bélie and Fuster had Spanish grandpas), but were repeated and had a direct influence in the fact they were in the RWC qualifying process.

Romania lost Europe 1, Spain lost Europe 2. Belgium didn't lose anything at all and just keeps making the most of the fact its 2016 ineligibility wasn't caught at the time so no punishment was issued. It's stupid.

P.S: Grammatico case even if dealt in the same way wouldn't have affected standings. However another case from 2012 would mean changes, yet it would be interesting and to retrospectively investigate all squads from the last six seasons.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 22:48

I genuinely wonder if Romania will ever qualify for a RWC again. I'm compiling the age grade stats (U18 & U19/20) and in Europe alone Romania hasn't been top 4 in U18 since 2009. At the U20 level they've lost out to Georgia, Portugal, Spain, and Russia in both 2017 & 18 (came behind the Netherlands this year). Even if the 2023 WC is 24 team, and Georgia auto-qualifies, I expect that there will be 3 direct qualifiers max. Russia, Portugal, Spain have and are beating Romania on all youth measures, with Poland, Belgium, and the Netherlands all producing strong age groups. In addition the oaks are badly, badly aging. Unless some effort is made to reverse the youth decline I can't see them even being in the ERChampionship long term.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 22:55

It doesn't matter. From U18-U20, Romanian players develop in a professional league like Superliga while Portuguese and Spanish counterparts sink in amateurism and choose other career paths. Even if Germany improves, even if Poland, Belgium and Netherlands beat Romania at underage level, they will keep a decent standard unless Superliga bankrupts. And if they have been able to expand to 8 teams in such a crucial moment for Romanian rugby, they are stronger than they look like.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 06 Jun 2018, 23:13

Of the team that lost to Spain, by age: (bench)

25: 1 (1)
27: 1
28: 1 (1)
29: 0 (1)
30: 0 (2)
31: 8 (1)
32: 1
33: 1 (2)
34: 2


That is not a team that has a quality set of youngsters, it is a side that is 3 years away from a massive cliff-edge. While the pro environment point is a very good one, and will prop them up to a certain extent, the talent is just not there. Even at U20 they only perform marginally better than U18 (5th v 7th, 4th v 6th for the same groups of players), with Belgium suffering a big fall-off in that period.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 00:30

Armchair Fan wrote:I've read the decision and I've understood it. I just keep thinking it's wrong.

They've flown under the radar while Russia, Romania and Spain battled and weren't punished at all for their multiple errors. Not only these were more severe than Romania (Fakaosilea complied with residence criteria) and Spain (Bélie and Fuster had Spanish grandpas), but were repeated and had a direct influence in the fact they were in the RWC qualifying process.

Romania lost Europe 1, Spain lost Europe 2. Belgium didn't lose anything at all and just keeps making the most of the fact its 2016 ineligibility wasn't caught at the time so no punishment was issued. It's stupid.

P.S: Grammatico case even if dealt in the same way wouldn't have affected standings. However another case from 2012 would mean changes, yet it would be interesting and to retrospectively investigate all squads from the last six seasons.



What are you on about??

It's doesn't matter that Fakaosilea and the Sapinish players complied by residence or grandparents. All three were captured players to other countries.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Sick » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 00:37

Blurandski wrote:Of the team that lost to Spain, by age: (bench)

25: 1 (1)
27: 1
28: 1 (1)
29: 0 (1)
30: 0 (2)
31: 8 (1)
32: 1
33: 1 (2)
34: 2


That is not a team that has a quality set of youngsters, it is a side that is 3 years away from a massive cliff-edge. While the pro environment point is a very good one, and will prop them up to a certain extent, the talent is just not there. Even at U20 they only perform marginally better than U18 (5th v 7th, 4th v 6th for the same groups of players), with Belgium suffering a big fall-off in that period.



Listen i'm not going to do explaining. Tell me: was the spanish team that beat us younger? Was their team filled with great "talent" from the good "age greade" teams from the past 3-4 years? Was the belgian team? Was the russians?

You mentioned 2009. Yeah we won the trophy. The 2010 guys lost to russia. Since then we have been worse and worse at age grades... but hey russia beat us once at senior level. From the 2010 U20 team there are 2 reserves for the national team: Bratu and Bardasu. There are 5 more guys who are superliga players at the moment. Some were in the 2nd league last year. From last year's U20 we have Simionescu who started games and Chirica who also stared games for our national team. Our age grade teams suck, but there are always 3-4 players who have a chance to catch the first team in 1-2 years. Same can't be said for anyone in rec (Georgia excluded).

I'm not saying that we shouldn't improve or have more young players, we are trying to improve on that, but ordinary logic (great U20 players>>>great senior squad) does not really apply to our rugby. Hopefully in the future it will.
Last edited by Sick on Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 06:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 03:02

snapper37 wrote:What are you on about??

It's doesn't matter that Fakaosilea and the Sapinish players complied by residence or grandparents. All three were captured players to other countries.

If you can't really see anything wrong with the fact the union who fielded five players as close to qualify for them as I am is escaping with no actual penalty at all while the one that did less mistakes, Romania, loses the big prize and is sent to a relegation playoff I'll just assume you prefer trolling than having a reasonable discussion.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 07:26

About decision, although I can understand the outcome (Romania, Spain out of RWC) I must say as a legal professional who read all the documents (as outside pro bono counsel, not part of FRR) in this case, I am disappointed by the quality of work of both panels. I expected that High Court judges and a QC to put up a much better reasoning. The decisions are clumsy, assume things that never happened or happened differently and avoid to refer to issues bought into panel's attention which were simply ignored it, not even dismissed with a reasoning. It is difficult for one educated legal reader to believe for example the reasoning from appeal which says the first panel took into consideration mitigating and aggravating circumstances where there's no damn reference to these in the first decision. Or to consider that the player was not informed although he signed the mandatory form. What did they used, a crystal globe? And this is frustrating because they had all the instruments and grounds to keep Romania and Spain out of RWC without silly reasoning.

More, WR's act as part of the case is lacking any care for T2 nations by the way they've put up the defense. I emphasize I am not criticizing the result but the process and the quality of the process. Usually in arbitration parties are expected to argue with diplomacy and good will and I'll just say WR have a twisted sense of what this means.

As for those worried about the death of Romanian rugby let's just say we have a 6-7 pro league for 6 years already while US is trying from the same amount of time to have a similar number of teams. And many are in awe of MLR where we see forwards like Barkwill being one of the better players (he's not test level player, never was, will never be). It is a long way for most T2 nation until will have a similar instrument with SL who bring Romania on 16th In rankings. Mind you, many of these players of 30+ yo progressed tremendously in last 5-6 years after they become professionals. I don't know how many remember what player was van Heerden when he come here or compare his actual game with what he played in 2015 RWC. I am giving him as example to see that the mere fact he was a Saffa didn't automatically made him a better player than most Romanians. He improved and become the player he is today and who signs with Perpignan and had offers from Tolouse here, in Romania. This league developed players much better than many think. Most of our U20s get pro contracts if they want to continue their career. Take for example last year team, when Rou U20 was narrowly defeated by Portugal which eventually made it into the final of World Trophy. That was a try win by a lucky run from 22 to 22. But all Romanians from that team, which was a decent one have contracts while how many Portuguese or Spaniards we see at a pro level? Or we seen a Rou U20 this year which dominated a Dutch pack from English academies only to be let down by naive backs defense. Didn't matter at all that Dutch forwards come from Leicester or Exeter and Romanian missing 2 fly-halves which were usually playing didn't helped them at all. Or take the U18 with the famous image of the Romanian scrum being raised from ground by French one. Many don't know that at least one player , the tighthead was still 16 yo, close to 17 (not sure about the hooker, I have to check). But when that kid will come to the right age, he will be hard to play against. So winning is not always the best indicator at age grades. A team as Portugal which is training all the time in Lisbon will be better playing as team compared with a team of Romanians from various clubs who meet two weeks before the Championship to train and had 1-2 preparation stages before the competition. Age grades teams is a nice to have but so far only Georgians made a profit out of it to senior level because their players train to move in France and play pro and not just to win at U20 them pick a normal job. Russians have this chance too if they'll be smart enough to invest in youth specialized coaches at club level (not NT level only).

As for Romanian junior system, currently is in transition, is passing from club based system to regional centers system. Will take a while to make everything work but there is interest to improve it. For example we saw the first foreign coach to Juniors this year (Pringle, who worked with Scottish age grade system) so we are making efforts here but we didn't quite find the receipe yet.
Last edited by amz on Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 09:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 09:23

Having read all the documents I don't think this was a fair or reasonable punishment.

Points deductions were inevitable and correct but the level of them is grossly disproportionate to the offense. The individual unions cocking up have been trashed whilst World Rugby's cock up (arguably bigger and more important) is let off the hook totally. If WR had compiled the database of captured players which has been in their regs since 2008 none of this would have happened. Or, it would have unambiguously been the nations own fault.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 11:32

Confirmation that Romania will play to avoid relegation and Belgium reaches its best ever REC result. Disgusting
Image

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 11:36

It's good to have at least a test this June or whenever is played.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Sick » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 11:38

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just find having a +19 try tally, +118 in points scored and -11 points at the same time really damn funny.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 11:45

At the final of this comedy we can have some totally absurd situation: Portugal at the World cup but playing in 6N C.

Also i will not be very surprise if Romania will descend in 6N C. I doubt the France players will come to play in this game & anyway our morale will be down. In few weeks Romanian Rugby lost their World Cup place, their image was destroyed in Bruxelles, Timisoara owner leave the club in the hands of an inept City Council, no Challenge Cup participation for Romanian clubs and now we face the spectrum of relegation. Damn...that is a tough situation.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 11:46

Sick wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just find having a +19 try tally, +118 in points scored and -11 points at the same time really damn funny.


We need to play Portugal. This will keep Spain up and we will be sure to host them with our well known hospitality in 2019 REIC. ;) Otherwise who knows what they'll do vs their neighbours.

@Bogdan_DC, I am pretty sure most players will answer well.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Sick » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:34

REC2019... for us its more like RECVENGE&RECDEMPTION 2019.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:36

First just be sure it's not RETreat 2019

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:40

Armchair Fan wrote:First just be sure it's not RETreat 2019

More likely...bad news are mounting in Romanian Rugby.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:41

I dunno, one year I'd fancy a travel to Amsterdam, Zurich or Warszaw ;)

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Sick » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:44

amz wrote:I dunno, one year I'd fancy a travel to Amsterdam, Zurich or Warszaw ;)



Hope we don't have to send the team there by bus... :cry:

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Blurandski » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:45

Bogdan_DC wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:First just be sure it's not RETreat 2019

More likely...bad news are mounting in Romanian Rugby.


Well most of Portugal's best players are now on strike, so...

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:48

With or without them Romania must win this, I don't think anyone here bothers to see which players are on strike or not. This isn't at all important.

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