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New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 13:22

Bogdan_DC wrote:We've been 3th in the world and 5th (without losing a game) in the 90s on u20. Didn't change their behavior towards us, even worst, after we won the Trophy in Kenya an promote in Elite, they announce us after 1 month they reduce the number of teams and we must stay in Trophy.


That's one move I haven't read before. Maybe we should start a biggest dick move by WR poll :D
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 13:36

True story man:
2009 IRB Junior World Rugby Trophy
Pool
Romania 50 -17 Papua New Guinea
Romania 65 - 14 South Korea
Romania 26 – 20 Chile
Final
Romania 25 - 13 United States

After 1 month they announce Romania me must play again in Trophy due to financial reasons the number of participating nations was reduced to 12 before the 2010 tournament.
I never heard about something similar, when you reduce teams from a competition to reduce the team who win the promotion in competition. They basically played for nothing that year :).

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 13:47

Bogdan_DC wrote:True story man:
2009 IRB Junior World Rugby Trophy
Pool
Romania 50 -17 Papua New Guinea
Romania 65 - 14 South Korea
Romania 26 – 20 Chile
Final
Romania 25 - 13 United States

After 1 month they announce Romania me must play again in Trophy due to financial reasons the number of participating nations was reduced to 12 before the 2010 tournament.
I never heard about something similar, when you reduce teams from a competition to reduce the team who win the promotion in competition. They basically played for nothing that year :).



The other option would have been to relegate Fiji (who came 12th). Next year Fiji came 6th, Romania came 16th. They made the right decision.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 13:48

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:We've been 3th in the world and 5th (without losing a game) in the 90s on u20. Didn't change their behavior towards us, even worst, after we won the Trophy in Kenya an promote in Elite, they announce us after 1 month they reduce the number of teams and we must stay in Trophy.


That's one move I haven't read before. Maybe we should start a biggest dick move by WR poll :D


It wasn't a dick move at all, Romania U20 were 17th best in the world that year, there was no way that they should have been in a 12 team tournament.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 14:04

Blurandski wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:True story man:
2009 IRB Junior World Rugby Trophy
Pool
Romania 50 -17 Papua New Guinea
Romania 65 - 14 South Korea
Romania 26 – 20 Chile
Final
Romania 25 - 13 United States

After 1 month they announce Romania me must play again in Trophy due to financial reasons the number of participating nations was reduced to 12 before the 2010 tournament.
I never heard about something similar, when you reduce teams from a competition to reduce the team who win the promotion in competition. They basically played for nothing that year :).





The other option would have been to relegate Fiji (who came 12th). Next year Fiji came 6th, Romania came 16th. They made the right decision.


So they are fortunetellers? They know it already how the next year the standings will look? What about the disappointing of those kids?
It is fair to work a year for nothing?
What about the disqualification of Romanian Junior team for biting after a Wales game in a tournament host by Romania? Finishing 5th without a game lost?
What about last 12 years without a T1 test for Romania even if we was constantly in top20 (current 17th)?
Do you still didn't identify any BIAS regarding us?

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 14:18

Bogdan_DC wrote:
Blurandski wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:True story man:
2009 IRB Junior World Rugby Trophy
Pool
Romania 50 -17 Papua New Guinea
Romania 65 - 14 South Korea
Romania 26 – 20 Chile
Final
Romania 25 - 13 United States

After 1 month they announce Romania me must play again in Trophy due to financial reasons the number of participating nations was reduced to 12 before the 2010 tournament.
I never heard about something similar, when you reduce teams from a competition to reduce the team who win the promotion in competition. They basically played for nothing that year :).





The other option would have been to relegate Fiji (who came 12th). Next year Fiji came 6th, Romania came 16th. They made the right decision.


So they are fortunetellers? They know it already how the next year the standings will look? What about the disappointing of those kids?
It is fair to work a year for nothing?
What about the disqualification of Romanian Junior team for biting after a Wales game in a tournament host by Romania? Finishing 5th without a game lost?
What about last 12 years without a T1 test for Romania even if we was constantly in top20 (current 17th)?
Do you still didn't identify any BIAS regarding us?


As far as I can see, Romania had (and still hasn't) never finished above Fiji.
For the kids, they still won the Romania's first ever global competition, its the year after that that would have benefitted.
For the 3rd point, I don't know enough to comment.
4th, T2 v T1 test allocations have historically been very unfair, with the teams that would attract larger crowds getting more tests, however the should change with the global calendar.

There is zero bias against Romania as a rugby country, the implication that they reduced the tournament to 12 to stop Romania getting in is hilarious. Romania's focus has to remain aiming to be ranked 4th among the T2 nations (Japan, Georgia, Fiji are all 1.5), so that they get more T1 tests after 2019.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 15:01

OK i repeat, maybe you don't understand me.

About Junior tournaments:

1995 - The Junior World Championship in Bucharest: How can Romania finish in 5th place without losing any matches?
Romania finished fifth in this edition although it has not lost any matches until the end! The paradox has an explanation: on the night after the group match with Wales, won by Oaks (22-15), who secured the semi-finals, the Disciplinary Commission meets who finds that Ivan has bitten an opponent! Mysteriously Romania looks like declared forfeit. Although neither of the Welsh players ever complained, nor was any Romanian suspended. The Romanian rugby players found the next morning that instead of contesting the semi-finals, with the chance to win the competition, they will play for the 5th place!
1996 - The Junior World Championship in Brescia we take Bronze so i think is a a much bigger thing than taking Trophy, what do you think?
2009 - The Junior World Trophy in Kenya we won the Tournament but after one month they reduced the tournament to 12.
I am not saying that they reduce the tournament to 12 for preventing us to be in the elite tournament, and please dont put words in my mouth because i never said that, but DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT ANY OF THE ABOVE IT WAS POSSIBLE TO HAPPEN TO A HOME NATION? SINCERELY?

About Senior side:
About tests - we are the only T2 nation who didn't receive a T1 test in the last 12 years, despite being 13 -20th ranked in this years.but it is not something new.Actually because of this FIRA tournaments and later REC exists.because home nations dont want to play others. They didn' t want World Cup also.
Do you are aware of the fact that in 70-80s home nations teams used to put an XV after their name just because they don't want some of those games to count in their official ROYAL statistics? My father, My godfather and my father Godson played for OAKS in that time. Just check for ex '79 game vs Wales or '80 game vs Ireland just for curiosity and please tell me the difference of those Wales&Ireland XV lineups vs 5 Nations lineups in the same year. You will find very few exceptions but those nations don't want to broke their records against Eastern savages.

Of course that you can find explanations for every single thing, like they find after Georgia beat them at U18, traumatizing psychologically 6N kids and for their good leaving European competitions.But you can't convince me that it is not any bias towards OUTSIDERS in Europe. Sorry but this is my opinion, you are entitled to have yours.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 18:39

Blurandski wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:We've been 3th in the world and 5th (without losing a game) in the 90s on u20. Didn't change their behavior towards us, even worst, after we won the Trophy in Kenya an promote in Elite, they announce us after 1 month they reduce the number of teams and we must stay in Trophy.


That's one move I haven't read before. Maybe we should start a biggest dick move by WR poll :D


It wasn't a dick move at all, Romania U20 were 17th best in the world that year, there was no way that they should have been in a 12 team tournament.


That is the definition of a dick move. Somebody celebrates their promotion only to find out a month later that they won't be promoted. You can change rules, but you do so before AND provide a clear path and opportunity to reach it.

Imagine you were a youth player or their family involved. How can you not think that rugby is a joke after somethig like this. This kills off every motivation and will to go all the way. Would be interesting how many stopped playing rugby after this. Would be interesting how many stopped watching and supporting rugby after this. Its like stomping on a flower. Destructive, senseless and simply a dick move.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 19:08

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Imagine you were a youth player or their family involved. How can you not think that rugby is a joke after somethig like this. This kills off every motivation and will to go all the way. Would be interesting how many stopped playing rugby after this. Would be interesting how many stopped watching and supporting rugby after this. Its like stomping on a flower. Destructive, senseless and simply a dick move.


The biggest issue for Romania in 2000s was to convince players make the move from Juniors to Seniors. Of course internal reasons also congregate to this but look at 2009 generation, you can count on a had how may made it to seniors. Now when we solved this with SL is difficult to keep them after 14yo because the perspective for them to move to Western European schools and generally good schools from Romania is more convincing so most parents don't look at sports as a career.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 21:22

Off course tough to say, but maybe some players would have been scouted to play in France or even do both play rugby and go to a western school. At that time Romania was not exactly known for high wages so those players would've been quite cheap to lure to a pro club.
And my guess is that scouting was even worse for talent in t2 countries, especially if you don't play the best regularly.
Off course the pro league now helps a lot, but if only one or two more would gave become pro before that could have made a difference.
And even if not: what a dickmove to change the rules after you earn promotion.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Thomas » Wed, 13 Jun 2018, 15:06

For all those learned people in this forum, what happens to the players that were found ineligible? Are their international careers effectively over or can they play for their new countries in their new campaign or are they bound to their country of Origin?

Some of these players are relatively young. What are peoples understanding of the laws?

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Raven » Wed, 13 Jun 2018, 15:12

That´s actually a good question, I had asked myself the same and forgot to post it.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby NedRugby » Wed, 13 Jun 2018, 16:11

I guess the guys that were captured by another country remain captured (except for the olympic loophole). The players who were ineligible due to not being continuously resident for 3 years - I imagine that they get another chance at reaching their 3 years - or 5 years in the future. Does the clock keep ticking (if you've done 2 years are you eligible after a further 1?) or does it get reset?

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 13 Jun 2018, 19:23

YOU remain eligible for your FORMER country
but should SERVE a lengthy BAN for infringing WR REG

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Wed, 13 Jun 2018, 20:10

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:YOU remain eligible for your FORMER country
but should SERVE a lengthy BAN for infringing WR REG


This but I doubt WR will pursue something vs Sione, the punishment is harsh enough for country. They might do it still, who knows, they're so hectic with some stuff that you can hardly have any educated guess (see Grammatic case based on which Spain must pay all fees, those from Belie/Fuster and the one for Grammatico)

Fakaosilea can theoretically qualify for Romania trough Olympic loophole and as far as I know he meets now/or will meet soon the requirements to become Romanian citizen.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 13 Jun 2018, 20:21

So from the "grannygate" cases I remember Dave Hilton moving to Scotland to qualify on residency and resume his international career. But he was not catured by anyone else.

I'd guess Belie and Fuster might use the Olympic route and resume their Spain careers then? I'm not sure ho old they are/would be but it is an option.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 14 Jun 2018, 09:07

NedRugby wrote:I guess the guys that were captured by another country remain captured (except for the olympic loophole). The players who were ineligible due to not being continuously resident for 3 years - I imagine that they get another chance at reaching their 3 years - or 5 years in the future. Does the clock keep ticking (if you've done 2 years are you eligible after a further 1?) or does it get reset?


It does reset. You need to stay in the country for the last three years just before the 1st game. I think this is one scenario of the Tahiti ineligible players, where one went to France for a health threatment and stayd two months (and the residence eligibility clock reset).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby dwpeate » Sun, 17 Jun 2018, 10:31

anyone know when the Romania v Portugal match is happening?

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Sun, 17 Jun 2018, 10:45

November

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 17 Jun 2018, 11:17

I would be surprised.
The schedule for the trophy, in which the loser of this game will play, usually is agreed upon among the participating nations in July or August.
This comp does not run along the 6 Nations nor is it following the international windows.
It 's matches are spread out from as early as September to as late as May.
I doubt everyone can wait until late November to start drawing up their season's calendar.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby victorsra » Sun, 17 Jun 2018, 20:54

Silver Fox wrote:I would be surprised.
The schedule for the trophy, in which the loser of this game will play, usually is agreed upon among the participating nations in July or August.
This comp does not run along the 6 Nations nor is it following the international windows.
It 's matches are spread out from as early as September to as late as May.
I doubt everyone can wait until late November to start drawing up their season's calendar.


Unless the Trophy will be played at the same time of the 6N and REC... any chance of that?
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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Tomster7uk » Sun, 17 Jun 2018, 23:49

Do you think Rugby Europe have learned their lesson from this years regional process?

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby YamahaKiwi » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 07:40

sk 88 wrote:Having read all the documents I don't think this was a fair or reasonable punishment.

Points deductions were inevitable and correct but the level of them is grossly disproportionate to the offense. The individual unions cocking up have been trashed whilst World Rugby's cock up (arguably bigger and more important) is let off the hook totally. If WR had compiled the database of captured players which has been in their regs since 2008 none of this would have happened. Or, it would have unambiguously been the nations own fault.


I'm in full agreement about WR. The independent panel should have shown some balls and made a major point of addressing WR's failings and partial responsibility for this debacle. They should've stated that WR also deserves to be served a fine even if they didn't have the power to impose such a penalty. As the day to day head of WR they should have made it clear Brett Gosper should be held responsible and stated their belief he should resign, even if that was not binding on WR to do so and they declined. The censure and shaming would've been a very public black eye for the organisation and the boys at the top.

What really infuriates me is the WR reaction to the decision. They said they'll EXPLORE the options for creating a database. The f**king arrogant bastards! If they had even the slightest feeling of responsibility and transparency to their stakeholders all over the world they would have shown that in the press release by declaring they would act swiftly to create the world's best database to ensure this crap never happened again blah blah blah. But no, we're so above the rest of you heathens that the best you'll get from us is the possibility that we'll EXPLORE the option of creating a database.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby YamahaKiwi » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 07:43

And like AF, I can't believe Belgium has got off so lightly. I expected them to be contesting the relegation match or even be relegated full stop. If there is any Karma they'll find themselves in the relegation spot next year.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 07:57

Silver Fox wrote:I would be surprised.
The schedule for the trophy, in which the loser of this game will play, usually is agreed upon among the participating nations in July or August.
This comp does not run along the 6 Nations nor is it following the international windows.
It 's matches are spread out from as early as September to as late as May.
I doubt everyone can wait until late November to start drawing up their season's calendar.


Than prepare to be surprised. At least this Romania should received after we were royally fucked and put into relegation place despite fielding 1 ineligible player compared with 2 Spain (and + one 2 years earlier) and 5 Belgians. Many forget the decision was 2 to 1 for Romania deduction of points which speaks volumes about our mitigating factors.

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