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New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 16 May 2018, 12:51

rey200 wrote:@trg

in the end you want to introduce a digital database with all scorelines, penalties etc published online. unthinkable. Rugby is a young professional sport, you can't just think something like this. Stop it please.

ok without being ironic: how hard can it be? Every international player should be in a database, and yes, WR has to be responsible for that. And I'm talking about test matches only, but with the current reg. 8 that would also mean all relevant teams i.e. also 2nd choice teams and sevens. It's good to have your records straight; your records are then the right ones, and we're not in the early 1900's anymore


I said nothing about scorelines and penalties. I'm talking about a system where unions can check whether a player is eligible to play for them or not. Something here they can log in, type in their name and check whether they can play for that nation.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Raven » Wed, 16 May 2018, 12:51

amz wrote:
Raven wrote:I (as many that write in this forum) had been waiting anxiously for this decision to come. It was always clear there were going to be a lot of people against the actual statement; but in a very personal note I find all this to be extremely frustrating, thank god the residency rule is changing.


yet, from 1+2+5 ineligible players, only one is due to residency issues, the rest are for ancestry issues. so I don't see how this new rule will help to have a safer environment.


True, but it´ll help purge the search of shortcuts and in fairness, AFAIK that 1 case fired everything else.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 16 May 2018, 12:55

Raven wrote:In any case, and unless anything changes after the appeal lapse, I hope both Russia and Germany get the best XV they can ever field to be as competitive as a Romania or Spain could potentially have been at a world stage.


Russia have got 18 months to build something, and their union has been doing a lot more recently in trying to improve the game in the country, so what ever luck has been given to them they have to do something with it now.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby STMKY » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:00

We need to make an announcement that we are looking for high-level players with Russian roots. Remember in 2011 Adam Burns himself expressed a desire to play? Perhaps there are players with non-Russian surnames, who have a grandmother or grandfather from Russia, but we do not know about them now.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby evil santa » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:05

RugbyLiebe wrote:Edit: as this was apparently changed July 1st 2016, when was this case for him made?


here are pages of DECLARATION OF ELIGIBILITY from 2011 IRB Regulations
Spoiler:
Image
Image


amz wrote:yet, from 1+2+5 ineligible players, only one is due to residency issues, the rest are for ancestry issues. so I don't see how this new rule will help to have a safer environment.

I do not see anyone due to residency issue. :?
3 - binding issues, 5 - ancestry issues

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:18

evil santa wrote:I do not see anyone due to residency issue. :?
3 - binding issues, 5 - ancestry issues

Technically yes, I agree, but the root of the issue was residency rule and I was stated that arguing about new residency rule which won't solve the issues created by ancestry eligibility which occur more often.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby armchair_expert » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:21

Belgium named Yohan Vivalda in their extended taining squad this season - if they fielded him he would have been their 6th ineligible player
http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/matchcentre/16866.php - captured for France by playing in a NSNRT international

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby evil santa » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:22

amz wrote:Technically yes, I agree, but the root of the issue was residency rule and I was stated that arguing about new residency rule which won't solve the issues created by ancestry eligibility which occur more often.

Well, the Unions will have 2 more years to check players eligibility. ;)

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:26

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Its even simpler than that.

You can have an open database that any recognised union can update with players they have captured. For foreign born players, (all foreign born players), you can have a separate database with how the person is qualified (mother, father, granny, residency etc) and some supporting documents. Anyone could access these to read, with only the documents being secured for World Rugby officials only.

Its dead easy and tonnes of businesses operate things like this.


I like the idea, but it is not as simple as you state. In the EU just this month a new data protection law comes into place and I am quite sure, that you can't just save private data like anyones grandmother's birth dates and birthplace open for everyone to see them.
Not a single business I know operates like this. Especially as you want everyone to give all the asked data.

But I think such a data base by World Rugby is possible - just not one open to everyone.


Gorbeh wrote:There could be an interface, that the games played and the nation which captured the corresponding player is displayed open for everyone, without information of birthplace, date of birth etc. The necessary information for clearing purposses (e.g. birth certificates etc) must be stored somewhere else.



This is what I meant. A list of captured players and the reason for qualifying open for everyone, details of how qualified and documents limited to necessary people only.

GDPR isn't much different to current UK regulations (don't know about Germany), its just the compliance industry seeing an easy cow to milk and make a few quid for a few months.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:30

evil santa wrote:
amz wrote:Technically yes, I agree, but the root of the issue was residency rule and I was stated that arguing about new residency rule which won't solve the issues created by ancestry eligibility which occur more often.

Well, the Unions will have 2 more years to check players eligibility. ;)


Yet, 1 case compared with 7 ones :)

sk 88 wrote:GDPR isn't much different to current UK regulations (don't know about Germany), its just the compliance industry seeing an easy cow to milk and make a few quid for a few months.


Regardless of Brexit, UK will keep the same regulations in this field as EU. At least this is the position now.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby iul » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:33

STMKY wrote:We need to make an announcement that we are looking for high-level players with Russian roots. Remember in 2011 Adam Burns himself expressed a desire to play? Perhaps there are players with non-Russian surnames, who have a grandmother or grandfather from Russia, but we do not know about them now.

Russia needs to bring in a world class coaching team and focus on the national team.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:35

Yes, well we'll see I suppose, but GDPR is not really very different to current rules. You can't horde data with no justification at the moment and even under GDPR there are so many opt outs you can continue to hold pretty much any information you want.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Alcyon » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:43

I am always amazed to see people blame the governing body when they failed to do their job. This is asking for more hand holding, nothing else.

Check evil santa's post, what the federations have to check if written there, nothing more and nothing less. Belgium's case is easy, I don't know which box they ticked but the players lied. Romania's case is simple too.

Spain's case is a bit less simple, but when you recruit 13 french players, you better have to check if they played for the next senior fifteen representative team. They failed. Of course it will be easier for the FA's if WR keeps a database, they can drop some responsabilities to the governing body. It would also be easier if your boss did your job or if my students tried to learn by themselves when they aren't at school.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Thomas » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:45

The crux of the entire statement as someone else alluded is paragraph 58 which is no DB? I mean the sports has been professional since 1995 and we have no digital record keeping? what rely on ESPN as Romania stated? Is that the governing body outsource company??

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Zhenya_Zima » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:49

iul wrote:
STMKY wrote:We need to make an announcement that we are looking for high-level players with Russian roots. Remember in 2011 Adam Burns himself expressed a desire to play? Perhaps there are players with non-Russian surnames, who have a grandmother or grandfather from Russia, but we do not know about them now.

Russia needs to bring in a world class coaching team and focus on the national team.



Well, I think Sevens might go on the back burner for a year!

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby evil santa » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:51

iul wrote:
STMKY wrote:We need to make an announcement that we are looking for high-level players with Russian roots. Remember in 2011 Adam Burns himself expressed a desire to play? Perhaps there are players with non-Russian surnames, who have a grandmother or grandfather from Russia, but we do not know about them now.

Russia needs to bring in a world class coaching team and focus on the national team.


I think, world class coaching team needs top class players to work with.
May be it is worth to watch at what McDermott is capable of after being Head coach for 3+ months and having Taumalolo as assistant in June tests.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby iul » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:52

they need a proper scrum coach at least

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby STMKY » Wed, 16 May 2018, 13:57

iul wrote:Russia needs to bring in a world class coaching team and focus on the national team.

I agree, but we need more players.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby evil santa » Wed, 16 May 2018, 14:00

Thomas wrote:The crux of the entire statement as someone else alluded is paragraph 58 which is no DB? I mean the sports has been professional since 1995 and we have no digital record keeping? what rely on ESPN as Romania stated? Is that the governing body outsource company??

Reference to ESPN was not bad option compared to reference to Wikipedia.

iul wrote:they need a proper scrum coach at least

A lot of scrum coaches :)
If you watched Continental shield final you must have noticed, that after substitutions Enisei made in front row its scrum become not so impressive.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby 4N » Wed, 16 May 2018, 14:06

STMKY wrote:
iul wrote:Russia needs to bring in a world class coaching team and focus on the national team.

I agree, but we need more players.


Find out if Khatchik Vartanov can play 7s. :D

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 16 May 2018, 14:10

ESPN doesn't track 7s players.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Wed, 16 May 2018, 14:14

evil santa wrote:Reference to ESPN was not bad option compared to reference to Wikipedia..


there was actually a bigger list of websites checked in the submissions but sometimes judges just cherry pick whatever they like :)

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby BigG » Wed, 16 May 2018, 14:22

Did you look at Wikipedia qualification table? According to it Belgium is on the last place. Is that correct?

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby amz » Wed, 16 May 2018, 14:24

BigG wrote:Did you look at Wikipedia qualification table? According to it Belgium is on the last place. Is that correct?


No I didn't do the maths, I am only on phone as I am traveling so didn't bothered with. If someone makes if, please post them here as well.

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Re: New Belgium/Spain/Romania/eligibility thread UPDATE

Postby Gorbeh » Wed, 16 May 2018, 14:30

BigG wrote:Did you look at Wikipedia qualification table? According to it Belgium is on the last place. Is that correct?


Yes according to the two year table for the World Cup qualification. On the one year table Romania is last. Check 2017-18 Rugby Europe International Championships or 2018 Rugby Europe Championship.

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