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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 17:33

Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 19:16

TheStroBro wrote:
Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.


Sopoaga started multiple games in the Bledisloe Cup last year because of injury and played in every end of season tour match. Say whatever you want about the quality of his play but he was a regular in the ABs camp last year before he signed with Wasps. Piutau's last test match was 3 years ago. I'm talking specifically about players leaving because they were no longer being considered for the ABs.

I found this from a quick search (did not watch any of these games) so there's a reason I posted the following:
I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 19:27

Tobar wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.


Sopoaga started multiple games in the Bledisloe Cup last year because of injury and played in every end of season tour match. Say whatever you want about the quality of his play but he was a regular in the ABs camp last year before he signed with Wasps. Piutau's last test match was 3 years ago. I'm talking specifically about players leaving because they were no longer being considered for the ABs.

I found this from a quick search (did not watch any of these games) so there's a reason I posted the following:
I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.


There are a bunch of guys who were one cap wonders and bolted for France of course. But My response was more towards the video and the title. Guys who are lured away do it because a lot of them are poor and need the cash to hopefully set themselves up for success. At the time Lima left you also had Aaron Cruden who left...he didn't "lose" the jersey as much as other guys took it. The connotation of "lost" here, at least the way I took it is that there were some conduct issues per se.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Immenso » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 21:31

victorsra wrote:Sopoaga is right IMO... https://www.planetrugby.com/news/lima-s ... -increase/

Maybe, maybe not.

I'd expect it to happen one day. But I don't yet see anything different now than to 10 years ago.

I doubt the catalyst to change is players talking to each other about money and experiences, as Sopoaga suggests. The potential catalyst is what happens to SANZAAR (and it's competions) in the next 10 years or so.

NZ produces enough players to provide about 16 proessional teams but only has the economy to support 5 professional teams. Players move on.
For the first 10 or so years of SANZAR the wage differential wasn't that great and NZ kept it's best 5 players in each position. These days NZ can keep its best 3 or 4 players in each position, the 3rd, 4th 5th choices do 'give up' a little quicker and go and cash in earlier now that the wage gap has developed.

But Sopoaga's value as a million dollar player is greatly inflated by the fact that he hung around long enough to work his way up to 2nd or 3rd best in the country and became an All Black. I'd suggest that Samoan international, or Cook Island International or bog-standard former Super-15 player Lima Sopoaga could be worth about an Alapati Leuia (or the very, very good at his peak Kahn Fotuali'i).

I wouldn't bet on anything, though. The future of SANZAAR is the elephant in the room.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Immenso » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 21:45

Tobar wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.


Sopoaga started multiple games in the Bledisloe Cup last year because of injury and played in every end of season tour match. Say whatever you want about the quality of his play but he was a regular in the ABs camp last year before he signed with Wasps. Piutau's last test match was 3 years ago. I'm talking specifically about players leaving because they were no longer being considered for the ABs.

I found this from a quick search (did not watch any of these games) so there's a reason I posted the following:
I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.


Sopoaga was technically second choice in NZ at the time he decided to move.
He went on last year's November tour as the second choice 10.

But, I'm sure he could see the writing on the wall.
Mo'unga was taken on tour but played only the non-test matches, and the All Blacks management had given instruction that they wanted to develop Damian McKenzie as a 10/15 utility player. So Sopoaga could see zero test matches coming up in his immediate future.

Dropping from 2nd to 3rd best 10 on ability, but to 4th choice in the pecking order due to McKenzie.

3rd bests can get a few games a year. 4th bests don't except for injuries.

As an NZ fan, due our history in 2007 and 2011 with the first-five position I do feel a bit uncomfortable having the depth of only 3 test-class 10s. I'd prefer Sopoaga hung around for 18 more months ......

I'd say NZ currently have 7 test class 10s. 3 of them in NZ and 4 of them overseas (Sopoaga, Cruden, Slade, Taylor). (Although I've not seen Taylor or Slade play for about 5 years)

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