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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 17:33

Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 19:16

TheStroBro wrote:
Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.


Sopoaga started multiple games in the Bledisloe Cup last year because of injury and played in every end of season tour match. Say whatever you want about the quality of his play but he was a regular in the ABs camp last year before he signed with Wasps. Piutau's last test match was 3 years ago. I'm talking specifically about players leaving because they were no longer being considered for the ABs.

I found this from a quick search (did not watch any of these games) so there's a reason I posted the following:
I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 19:27

Tobar wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.


Sopoaga started multiple games in the Bledisloe Cup last year because of injury and played in every end of season tour match. Say whatever you want about the quality of his play but he was a regular in the ABs camp last year before he signed with Wasps. Piutau's last test match was 3 years ago. I'm talking specifically about players leaving because they were no longer being considered for the ABs.

I found this from a quick search (did not watch any of these games) so there's a reason I posted the following:
I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.


There are a bunch of guys who were one cap wonders and bolted for France of course. But My response was more towards the video and the title. Guys who are lured away do it because a lot of them are poor and need the cash to hopefully set themselves up for success. At the time Lima left you also had Aaron Cruden who left...he didn't "lose" the jersey as much as other guys took it. The connotation of "lost" here, at least the way I took it is that there were some conduct issues per se.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Immenso » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 21:31

victorsra wrote:Sopoaga is right IMO... https://www.planetrugby.com/news/lima-s ... -increase/

Maybe, maybe not.

I'd expect it to happen one day. But I don't yet see anything different now than to 10 years ago.

I doubt the catalyst to change is players talking to each other about money and experiences, as Sopoaga suggests. The potential catalyst is what happens to SANZAAR (and it's competions) in the next 10 years or so.

NZ produces enough players to provide about 16 proessional teams but only has the economy to support 5 professional teams. Players move on.
For the first 10 or so years of SANZAR the wage differential wasn't that great and NZ kept it's best 5 players in each position. These days NZ can keep its best 3 or 4 players in each position, the 3rd, 4th 5th choices do 'give up' a little quicker and go and cash in earlier now that the wage gap has developed.

But Sopoaga's value as a million dollar player is greatly inflated by the fact that he hung around long enough to work his way up to 2nd or 3rd best in the country and became an All Black. I'd suggest that Samoan international, or Cook Island International or bog-standard former Super-15 player Lima Sopoaga could be worth about an Alapati Leuia (or the very, very good at his peak Kahn Fotuali'i).

I wouldn't bet on anything, though. The future of SANZAAR is the elephant in the room.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Immenso » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 21:45

Tobar wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Tobar wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

WHA???

Julian Savea and Malakai Fekitoa definitely. Lima Sapoaga? Not really I don't think considering how many 10s there are nipping at Beauden Barrett's heels: Richie Mo'Unga and Damian MacKenzie. And no one is gonna tell me that Lima is better than Mo'Unga.


Sopoaga started multiple games in the Bledisloe Cup last year because of injury and played in every end of season tour match. Say whatever you want about the quality of his play but he was a regular in the ABs camp last year before he signed with Wasps. Piutau's last test match was 3 years ago. I'm talking specifically about players leaving because they were no longer being considered for the ABs.

I found this from a quick search (did not watch any of these games) so there's a reason I posted the following:
I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.


Sopoaga was technically second choice in NZ at the time he decided to move.
He went on last year's November tour as the second choice 10.

But, I'm sure he could see the writing on the wall.
Mo'unga was taken on tour but played only the non-test matches, and the All Blacks management had given instruction that they wanted to develop Damian McKenzie as a 10/15 utility player. So Sopoaga could see zero test matches coming up in his immediate future.

Dropping from 2nd to 3rd best 10 on ability, but to 4th choice in the pecking order due to McKenzie.

3rd bests can get a few games a year. 4th bests don't except for injuries.

As an NZ fan, due our history in 2007 and 2011 with the first-five position I do feel a bit uncomfortable having the depth of only 3 test-class 10s. I'd prefer Sopoaga hung around for 18 more months ......

I'd say NZ currently have 7 test class 10s. 3 of them in NZ and 4 of them overseas (Sopoaga, Cruden, Slade, Taylor). (Although I've not seen Taylor or Slade play for about 5 years)

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Neptune » Sat, 06 Oct 2018, 15:15

Anyone with a link to the rugby championship games for South Africa vs New Zealand?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Wed, 12 Dec 2018, 16:58

I received the following articles which are different ends of the spectrum:

The first one is into payments at Grassroots level (below tier 5)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-15539650
A common practice frown upon by many Amateur clubs but doesn't stopped others from doing it. A lot of clubs have gone to the wall because of this.

The second article is about the new £200 Million investment by CVC into Premier Rugby (CVC has tabled an offer of more than £200m for a share of around 30% in the business).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46532241

Both events will affect Rugby Union and by default Tier 2 Rugby in particular if CVC does step in.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 19:42

If you are willing to spend money to attract players, then you must become a professional team.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rugga » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 19:59

Thomas wrote:I received the following articles which are different ends of the spectrum:

The first one is into payments at Grassroots level (below tier 5)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-15539650
A common practice frown upon by many Amateur clubs but doesn't stopped others from doing it. A lot of clubs have gone to the wall because of this.

The second article is about the new £200 Million investment by CVC into Premier Rugby (CVC has tabled an offer of more than £200m for a share of around 30% in the business).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46532241

Both events will affect Rugby Union and by default Tier 2 Rugby in particular if CVC does step in.


On reddit someone said something along the lines of cvc paying the money up front and sucking formula 1 dry after. Do you know anything about that?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rugga » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 20:02

Thomas wrote:I received the following articles which are different ends of the spectrum:

The first one is into payments at Grassroots level (below tier 5)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-15539650
A common practice frown upon by many Amateur clubs but doesn't stopped others from doing it. A lot of clubs have gone to the wall because of this.

The second article is about the new £200 Million investment by CVC into Premier Rugby (CVC has tabled an offer of more than £200m for a share of around 30% in the business).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46532241

Both events will affect Rugby Union and by default Tier 2 Rugby in particular if CVC does step in.


In the article it says cvc are looking to buy 30% of the competition. By competition does it mean premiership rugby. Aren’t the 13 clubs all meant to have a share of the premiership?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 20:07

CVC sold their ownership to Liberty Media

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 20:12

Rugga wrote:
Thomas wrote:I received the following articles which are different ends of the spectrum:

The first one is into payments at Grassroots level (below tier 5)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... e-15539650
A common practice frown upon by many Amateur clubs but doesn't stopped others from doing it. A lot of clubs have gone to the wall because of this.

The second article is about the new £200 Million investment by CVC into Premier Rugby (CVC has tabled an offer of more than £200m for a share of around 30% in the business).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46532241

Both events will affect Rugby Union and by default Tier 2 Rugby in particular if CVC does step in.


In the article it says cvc are looking to buy 30% of the competition. By competition does it mean premiership rugby. Aren’t the 13 clubs all meant to have a share of the premiership?


Yes they are selling some of their ownership of Premier Rugby how is going work no one knows. There was another report from Melville to the clubs

No relegation
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... ugby-union

Nigel Melville: Premiership clubs must spend cash boost on facilities, not wages
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46510847

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 22:28

Melville needs to talk less.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 14:09

The Premiership's share structures are complex, there are four different classes of shares. A, B, P (Capital) & P (Income). Each of the clubs hold 40 of each category, save anyone who has been relegated recently who don't have the full value of A&B shares.

I understand they are buying the P (Income) shares, the amount seems to vary between 20% and 33% depending on who you listen to.

I should think from the perspective of T2 players they should welcome it as its more likely now that PRL will look to dismantle some of the restrictions on foreign players and even if they don't the wages of those that make it will likely go up. It will likely lead to more growth and development in other leagues as if CVC show a particular market exists others will follow them into it. It also gives an example of how, for instance, GRR or MLR might like to develop too which would aid T2 players.

T2 unions would probably not be so keen as it sees others become even more influential than they are, and financially the players are even less likely to be inclined to play in any other than a RWC or blue ribbon tests if the club wages become even greater than international ones and competition for places at club's increased.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 12:29

Talks about new setup for Welsh regional pro teams: https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/4 ... ales_sport
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby welshdragon2000 » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 13:09

Wow I didn’t realise how bad things were for the Ospreys! They could start by moving out of the Liberty Stadium. I spoke to George North recently and he said that the players notice the atmosphere (or rather the lack of it) so of course that’s not going to help the players perform to their best level. The crowd showed yesterday in the Wales game how they can lift the players and the team. Get the Ospreys in the Gnoll or the one in Bridgend and build from there. The liberty is only useful for the game against the Scarlets. Interest in the regions are rock bottom right now. And I have no idea how you can fix that to what it was once before

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Higgik » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 16:12

Maybe a solution is to lose the Italian teams and SA teams from Pro14 and combine with Premiership to create a British & Irish League. The cross border matches would bring a similar intensity to yesterday.
My idea would be, 2 conferences of 14 teams, adding London Irish, London Scottish, (playing at Wimbledon stadium), Cornish Pirates (providing they have a stadium), and a new ‘London Welsh’ to a Celtic Conference.
An Anglo Conference would be the current Premiership, and Doncaster, (South Yorkshire), and another Northern team, Yorkshire Carnegie, (if they can find investment).
The teams would then be split into 3 divisions in each conference, Celtic - Irish, Welsh, Scottish, (+ Pirates), Anglo - North, West, East.
Each team would play 12 games in conference and 4 games against the other conference, thereby creating a regular Anglo-Celtic match up.

By limiting the matches to 16, more weekends are not spoilt by internationals.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 16:36

Maybe follow Scotland's path and have West Wales (Swansea-Llanelli) and South East Wales (Cardiff-Newport)? But really regional teams, not originated from the major clubs, to avoid the rivalries. Welsh teams need results in the Champions Cup, just like what happened to the Irish teams.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 18:32

go back to to the Welsh Premiership being their premier competition. Owning the Millenium stadium has proven to be financially successful for Welsh rugby, so go ahead and build more club sized stadiums, probably holding about 10k seats, but with lots and lots of money making facilities, kind of like Wasps' Ricoh Arena is:
Image

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 19:44

Honestly, stadiums make a ton of their revenue from non-sports related activities. Concerts and major trade shows or conferences are big money makers, especially in a place like Ricoh which is the place to go for as a conference center. Sports owners in the US are realizing that they’re in the real estate business and not just the sports business.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 20:15

One thing that is becoming more common with the advent of G4 Pitches clubs are sharing the ground with the club that manages it. The grounds are used continuously throughout the week and there is no pitch degradation.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 20:57

iul wrote:go back to to the Welsh Premiership being their premier competition.


Wales doesn’t have the economy on its own. The only way for a club revival would be to join up with the English league system like they do in soccer. Ospreys folding would be more a consequence of Scarlets having more success and being located 20 minutes away. Four pro teams in a region of about two million people is a lot anyway. That’s roughly the same population as greater Dublin which has just one pro team and a larger economy than the whole of Wales. There just isn’t enough money to support four pro teams in Wales, especially with Cardiff City and Swansea City competing with them for fans and sponsorship.

The Welsh passion for rugby is awesome but they need to look for realistic future solutions, not hope for the return of a past that existed under completely different circumstances. A region/franchise that splits matches between Swansea and Llanelli is probably the way to go if they aren’t going to join up with England. And the WRU really need to concentrate on making Cardiff stronger. They would get better crowds if they didn’t always finish mid table.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 21:26

Not sure if having a Welsh team in the English Premiership will work, look what happen to London Welsh, A club with great history and tradition brought down by economics and bad management.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 21:33

Wales' economy is over 60 billion gbp. That is plenty to support a fully pro rugby premiership. Plus they can sell their TV rights in other places too, plus they can get outside sponsors too, plus they can get revenues from these stadiums I'm talking about. They should definitely do it.
Australia should too.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 21:46

iul wrote:Wales' economy is over 60 billion gbp. That is plenty to support a fully pro rugby premiership. Plus they can sell their TV rights in other places too, plus they can get outside sponsors too, plus they can get revenues from these stadiums I'm talking about. They should definitely do it.
Australia should too.


How do you get new revenue in Llanelli and Swansea when they both have new municipal stadiums and are located right next to each other? Do you think there is a big corporate conference market there or something? They would 100% go bust if they built club-owned grounds. There aren’t enough sponsors for four rugby regions and two major pro soccer clubs. This is clear.

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