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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Buffalo » Sun, 06 May 2018, 14:47

iul wrote:why don't the saffers do their own thing at the club level instead of this? They have the Currie already


There isn't enough money in just South Africa to keep England and France at bay. If they were to join with the Pro14 it could produce a TV deal rich enough to help keep players in country and slow down the domestic talent drain.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Sun, 06 May 2018, 14:50

the TV deal they brought to the Pro14 table is larger than what they had before, and that's for just two teams.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sun, 06 May 2018, 20:24

why don't the saffers do their own thing at the club level instead of this? They have the Currie already


I can think 2 reasons:

- Money: they believe their teams can profit more playing intercontinental competitions, searching for new markets (as SA economy is not doing well);
- Playing level. They want to play top teams from other continents. The question is: is it worth to swap NZ/Aus for IRE/WAL/SCO? Even if the level of NZ teams is stronger, SA players struggle with the long travels with hard time zones changes and the time of the matches in Oceania is not good for SA public. Europe solves both things. SA would be opting for not-so-strong matches that are in a better timezone.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby ihateblazers » Sun, 06 May 2018, 23:43

NaBUru38 wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Just because SA would have their teams playing in the NH doesn't mean they will adhere to the same policies as European Clubs and not release players.

Correct, but the conflict would remain., South African teams would probably ask to change the schedule to avoid clashes.


It would probably be in the best interests of Australia to shift the TRC so they don't clash with the AFL and NRL playoffs to be honest.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Mon, 07 May 2018, 13:52

Seems to be a step that will end with SA joining the 6/7N. Yuck.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 07 May 2018, 14:10

4N wrote:Seems to be a step that will end with SA joining the 6/7N. Yuck.


So think one step ahead. What happens if SA joins the 6N?
They will not stay at 7. Worst case they exclude Italy and I don't see that happening or they include a REC team (atm clearly Georgia.)

Bith situation are good for t2 rugby (first bad for Italy)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Mon, 07 May 2018, 14:34

RugbyLiebe wrote:
4N wrote:Seems to be a step that will end with SA joining the 6/7N. Yuck.


So think one step ahead. What happens if SA joins the 6N?
They will not stay at 7. Worst case they exclude Italy and I don't see that happening or they include a REC team (atm clearly Georgia.)

Bith situation are good for t2 rugby (first bad for Italy)


Possibly, but if SA joined the 6/7N there would more likely be a clamour to include Argentina, NZ and Australia. It would commercially be much, much more valuable to do this.

Only way for Georgia to get in is to have 2 World Cups where they get to semi-final/final to prove their pedigree. This is of course sad and unjust, but the way things are in this gentlemen's sport, a huge showing at the RWC is the only way to break this door down.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Mon, 07 May 2018, 14:46

jservuk wrote:Only way for Georgia to get in is to have 2 World Cups where they get to semi-final/final to prove their pedigree. This is of course sad and unjust, but the way things are in this gentlemen's sport, a huge showing at the RWC is the only way to break this door down.


Italy never did any of that. But agreed on the point that Argentina are more likely to be nation 8 if SA is 7.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 07 May 2018, 15:32

It is bad if they kick Italy out, which I doubt. Italy puts 60.000 people every match at the Olimpico and that is what matters for the 6N.

But if they consider expansion it would be good news for Georgia IMO, because the number os weekends needed for a 7N and a 8N is the same. This means Georgia could enter together (as the 6N would already be happy with the Boks, they could open space for a not-so-commercialy-interesting nation that, in the other hand, also is able to compete and sell out thome matches). But is would be bad news for the rest of Europe.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Mon, 07 May 2018, 21:54

4N wrote:
jservuk wrote:Only way for Georgia to get in is to have 2 World Cups where they get to semi-final/final to prove their pedigree. This is of course sad and unjust, but the way things are in this gentlemen's sport, a huge showing at the RWC is the only way to break this door down.


Italy never did any of that. But agreed on the point that Argentina are more likely to be nation 8 if SA is 7.


My feeling is that Italy was a more commercial decision, given the "glamour" and money making opportunities of Rome. They would open the doors for Germany at the earliest chance too, with a very low bar on the playing side. But for Georgia, and others, it will have to be done the hard way, and they couldn't say no to a team that consistently does well at RWC, ideally beating 1-2 T1 teams there.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Sables4EVA » Tue, 08 May 2018, 06:49

I doubt very much that the Boks would want to be out of the Rugby Championship. It is the Super Rugby system that is flawed for SA franchises.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Tue, 08 May 2018, 08:39

If the idea is that all the SA sides go north, I don't understand why this has to happen one or two at a time. That means constantly changing the league structure and system.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Tue, 08 May 2018, 09:45

Interesting comment from Jurie Roux CEO of SA RUGBY made last year:

“We are contracted to SANZAAR until the end of 2020 and will be going into a negotiating period again in the next two years.
We have benefited greatly from the rivalry against Australia and New Zealand and a further relationship is likely to continue to be of great benefit to South African rugby. But joining the PRO14 expands our horizons.
“But to not play in the southern hemisphere competition is unthinkable. We would suffer financial harm.”

I can categorically state that we view Pro14 and Super Rugby in terms of qualification criteria to play for the Springboks, in exactly the same light. From a rugby point of view, we now have the opportunity to adapt to conditions in the north quicker. The first game of the autumn is really a tough Test match because of not being used to those conditions and the environment.

‘Now in terms of preparing our players for the conditions of the north, you might end up seeing two different Springbok sides being selected; one for inbounds (the June Test series) and the Rugby Championship, and one for outbounds (European tours) in conditions that are completely different, and choosing players paced for that.’

With the world calendar not aligned, we were all signing six or seven-year deals that were out of sync with each other. But now we have so many more opportunities and options. I’m super-excited for the Pro14. It’s an elegant solution for our Sanzaar problems.

““We don’t have options in Sanzaar, which means you’re actually nowhere and that’s not where you want to be. But we are really good for each other, so we will still participate in Sanzaar; we are strong because we play against Australia and New Zealand.”

We have four teams in Sanzaar; we have two in Pro14 and the other two will start to develop to play somewhere. Hopefully something like the Anglo-Welsh as a development tournament. At the right time in 2020 we can then make a decision on where our bases are.

“We believe we are as strong as we are because we play Australia, Argentina and New Zealand. We measure ourselves by those teams even though the north is getting better. We are committed to Sanzaar beyond 2020.”
Why would Sanzaar allow us to pick the cherries and then leave all of our partners to fight for themselves? It’s a pipedream for a lot of people. If I told Steve Tew I’ll see you for two months of the year and then I’ll go pick the riches of the north it would be a very tough negotiation. Sanzaar would say go play in the Six Nations.

“That’s a whole new conversation because we are only into the Celtic league at the moment. I don’t see any of them allowing us in their competitions anytime soon so I don’t think it’s realistic.”
===

Having read that, who is to say the the Sharks, Lions & Stormers are thinking of going and tell Jurie to jump? where would that leave the bulls? A door has been opened with options for SA interesting to see where all this heads after RWC 2019.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Tue, 08 May 2018, 10:13

The 7th and 8th "franchises" represent an interesting additional consideration. The Anglo-Welsh is being scrapped so that's a non-starter for them; the logical pathway would be for them to join the Pro14. However, if the Sharks and or Stormer/Lions would rather be in the Pro14 than Super Rugby, then maybe SA will seek to have the Pumas and/or Griquas take the Lions/Stomers/Sharks places in Super Rugby - that would be a way to reconcile both the PRO14 expansion rumours and apparent insistances that SA aren't pulling out of Super Rugby. Interesting times!

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby dropkick » Tue, 08 May 2018, 12:15

Just on talk about the 2 SA sides entering an Anglo Welsh cup. Thats no more but there's talk of a pro14 development tournament and it was reported last month that SA were also in talks about it. That could be something for their other 2 sides.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 08 May 2018, 13:18

Thomas wrote:Interesting comment from Jurie Roux CEO of SA RUGBY made last year:

“We are contracted to SANZAAR until the end of 2020 and will be going into a negotiating period again in the next two years.
We have benefited greatly from the rivalry against Australia and New Zealand and a further relationship is likely to continue to be of great benefit to South African rugby. But joining the PRO14 expands our horizons.
“But to not play in the southern hemisphere competition is unthinkable. We would suffer financial harm.”

I can categorically state that we view Pro14 and Super Rugby in terms of qualification criteria to play for the Springboks, in exactly the same light. From a rugby point of view, we now have the opportunity to adapt to conditions in the north quicker. The first game of the autumn is really a tough Test match because of not being used to those conditions and the environment.

‘Now in terms of preparing our players for the conditions of the north, you might end up seeing two different Springbok sides being selected; one for inbounds (the June Test series) and the Rugby Championship, and one for outbounds (European tours) in conditions that are completely different, and choosing players paced for that.’

With the world calendar not aligned, we were all signing six or seven-year deals that were out of sync with each other. But now we have so many more opportunities and options. I’m super-excited for the Pro14. It’s an elegant solution for our Sanzaar problems.

““We don’t have options in Sanzaar, which means you’re actually nowhere and that’s not where you want to be. But we are really good for each other, so we will still participate in Sanzaar; we are strong because we play against Australia and New Zealand.”

We have four teams in Sanzaar; we have two in Pro14 and the other two will start to develop to play somewhere. Hopefully something like the Anglo-Welsh as a development tournament. At the right time in 2020 we can then make a decision on where our bases are.

“We believe we are as strong as we are because we play Australia, Argentina and New Zealand. We measure ourselves by those teams even though the north is getting better. We are committed to Sanzaar beyond 2020.”
Why would Sanzaar allow us to pick the cherries and then leave all of our partners to fight for themselves? It’s a pipedream for a lot of people. If I told Steve Tew I’ll see you for two months of the year and then I’ll go pick the riches of the north it would be a very tough negotiation. Sanzaar would say go play in the Six Nations.

“That’s a whole new conversation because we are only into the Celtic league at the moment. I don’t see any of them allowing us in their competitions anytime soon so I don’t think it’s realistic.”
===

Having read that, who is to say the the Sharks, Lions & Stormers are thinking of going and tell Jurie to jump? where would that leave the bulls? A door has been opened with options for SA interesting to see where all this heads after RWC 2019.

Time runs. Jurie Roux is a PRO14 council member now.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 08 May 2018, 15:55

Southern Hemisphere Rugby as commercial ventures long term have serious issues, especially in South Africa. They need to focus more on getting butts in seats, growing the game domestically than foreign expeditions into another unsustainable competition.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 09 May 2018, 06:51

TheStroBro wrote:Southern Hemisphere Rugby as commercial ventures long term have serious issues, especially in South Africa. They need to focus more on getting butts in seats, growing the game domestically than foreign expeditions into another unsustainable competition.


While it is never wrong to have a higher attendance in your stadiums, your conclusion is wrong.
It is South Africa who already brings most of the TV money to Super Rugby and now it is also South Africa who brings the biggest chunk to Pro14 TV money.
I mean look at the Pro14, two more or less independent British regions (Wales+Scotland) without serious own private TV stations and a country (Ireland) with 4,7 million inhabitants whose sports-pay-tv-station bankrupted in 2009 + a country where the sport is shown on an absolutely minor tv station and the rights go for cheap (Italy).

It is not South Africa who has to fear anything (still a smart move to try to become more independent from own tv money).
It is New Zealand whose program can only be sustained if foreign money keeps coming in big chunks.
Australia could in theory be self-sustained, but there's the problem, that Rugby Union is the 3rd or 4th choice sport. And show me one country outside of the USA were those 3rd or 4th sports make any significant tv money.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Datiko » Wed, 09 May 2018, 08:27

I think that the damage to T1 is already too late to reverse. Rugby isn't the #1 sport across most of T1/T2. Its irrelevant/filled with residential expats across T3. I need to dig up a report I read that had a nice graphic but basically rugby skews older. IIRC only South Africa, France, and NZ have an even distribution of fan interest across age groups. WR trumpets the growth of the sport by youth participation but most unions count any schoolkid who touches a ball as a new participant. The reality is that fan-bases are 35+ in most of T1. I don't think the sport will die but its probably not going to break out under the status quo.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 09 May 2018, 08:48

Datiko wrote:I think that the damage to T1 is already too late to reverse. Rugby isn't the #1 sport across most of T1/T2. Its irrelevant/filled with residential expats across T3. I need to dig up a report I read that had a nice graphic but basically rugby skews older. IIRC only South Africa, France, and NZ have an even distribution of fan interest across age groups. WR trumpets the growth of the sport by youth participation but most unions count any schoolkid who touches a ball as a new participant. The reality is that fan-bases are 35+ in most of T1. I don't think the sport will die but its probably not going to break out under the status quo.


Not necessarily the case. I think in most Unions maybe apart from the British Isles an the RC-teams Rugby is a university sport. Even in France a lot of people especially in the North don't play it before they hit uni-age - so off course the fanship base is older in general than lets say soccer, who market the sh** out of everything and appeal to even kindergarten kids. What's more interesting is, if that average age has really become older over the years. Fingers crossed you can dig-up the report. Really interesting.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Wed, 09 May 2018, 11:04

I found 2 reports on a quick search of average Rugby Fan world wide

From 2013
http://www.smg-insight.com/wp-content/u ... 110213.pdf

From 2016
http://www.populus.co.uk/2016/11/challe ... tereotype/

Both make interesting reading and nice graphs...

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 09 May 2018, 11:49

Thomas wrote:I found 2 reports on a quick search of average Rugby Fan world wide

From 2013
http://www.smg-insight.com/wp-content/u ... 110213.pdf

From 2016
http://www.populus.co.uk/2016/11/challe ... tereotype/

Both make interesting reading and nice graphs...


So younger than average, richer than average compared to the population and more female than average compared to other sports? Pretty good reading to be honest. More or less perfect demographics for growth and sponsorship.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 09 May 2018, 13:42

Thomas wrote:From 2016
http://www.populus.co.uk/2016/11/challe ... tereotype/

Both make interesting reading and nice graphs...


This one is a nice read, but absolutely useless. national population is not the same compared to sports interested population. A comparision to that part of the population and a second comparision to soccer fans would have made way more sense.

Thomas wrote:I found 2 reports on a quick search of average Rugby Fan world wide

From 2013
http://www.smg-insight.com/wp-content/u ... 110213.pdf



Need to take some time and have a closer look. What I didn't like is, that they didn't break down the global follower's age. It is really strange that i.e. in Wales only 23% of the age group 18-24 are interested in rugby, but 52% of the 25-34 age group. Something is wrong there. Or maybe rugby fans just get later fond of the sport, when they are sick of the idiot show the average soccer game is nowadays, with all that diving and crying like little children. I would 100% fit myself in that interest-shift-group. I used to absolutely love soccer, but can't watch it any more, it just annoys me. On the other hand could the rise of Welsh soccer into the Premier League have been such a game changer?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby ihateblazers » Wed, 09 May 2018, 23:27

Im pretty sceptical of studies/surveys like those to be honest. Where do they get the data from, what are the questions asked? Of course if you run it online the results are going to skew younger people.

Truth is if you go to a game in UK and ireland, whether it's Pro 14 or Premiership the crowd will be majority older. The fan demographics are the equivalent of baseball in America except it was never big in the first place...

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 10 May 2018, 00:22

Im pretty sceptical of studies/surveys like those to be honest. Where do they get the data from, what are the questions asked? Of course if you run it online the results are going to skew younger people.


Of course. And fans when they are upset they say they don't care when they care.

But my impression is that there is a general movement of young people becoming less interested in sports in many (most?) countries in the West. We had last week the release of a research that said 40% of Brazilian don't care about soccer (the previous research in 2015 AFAIR said 30% of Brazilians did not care about soccer... it historicaly ranges around 25%... thus 40% scares many people).
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