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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 17:32

In the general sense they are still a minor league.


No, it isn't. Tell a fan of a Pro D2 club this.

Second division clubs in any sport with promotion/relegation system RIVAL top division clubs. Being in the 2nd division is only a temporary state. There are no links between clubs or fans. They compete against each other in the general sense.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 09:18

victorsra wrote:
In the general sense they are still a minor league.


No, it isn't. Tell a fan of a Pro D2 club this.

Second division clubs in any sport with promotion/relegation system RIVAL top division clubs. Being in the 2nd division is only a temporary state. There are no links between clubs or fans. They compete against each other in the general sense.


In Munich the second biggest soccer club 1860 München got relegated from the 2nd Bundesliga and had to go to the 4th division due to a financial problem. They had an attendance of 12k in a league which had an average attendance of 1,2k and they year before of 766. Regular fans of this club would never ever support Bayern Munich, no matter what.
Armchair Fan wrote:In the American sense you mean. To be honest, I don't know other country than the USA using that concept.

To be fair it is a common concept in ice-hockey and in other "newer countries" like Australia or New Zealand. Even the Uk had it in soccer, with a 4-league closed shop. The bigger the sport and the more European, the less likely it is to have this closed system though.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Hernan14 » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 01:51

RugbyLiebe wrote:Even the Uk had it in soccer, with a 4-league closed shop.


Not entirely true, given that in England the teams of the Conference (fifth level - known now as National League) can still promote to the League Two, in the same way that those in the leagues below the Conference can reach it...the different levels are run by different entities (Premier League, Football League and FA) but the teams can go up or down anyway...

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 03:58

Yes, there is promotion/relegtions between 4th nd 5th levels in England.

There are very few countries in Europe where promotion/relegation stops in some lower division. I can only think of the Netherlands and Ireland. There are some countries with more rules to be promoted, it is not ony winning a amateur division to go to a professional division.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 12:16

But there was no open promotion to the 4th tier until around 1992.

Before then the teams in the bottom few places were subject to "re-election", so if a big club or a place reasonably accessible finished in the bottom 3 they usually stayed up and only smaller clubs often from geographically remote areas were actually relegated, and even then only if a better option was on the table from the non-leagues.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Hernan14 » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:15

sk 88 wrote:But there was no open promotion to the 4th tier until around 1992.

Before then the teams in the bottom few places were subject to "re-election", so if a big club or a place reasonably accessible finished in the bottom 3 they usually stayed up and only smaller clubs often from geographically remote areas were actually relegated, and even then only if a better option was on the table from the non-leagues.


Yeap, by that, lower levels still are named as non-league, but as you say, no more a closed shop from 1992 (well before they could also be expelled from the orbit of the Football League and replaced by other clubs, although there were no promotions and automatic relegations)...

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 00:35

Those cases are related to the border between professional and amateur clubs. For amateur clubs to go pro some countries make different rules that are not just based on performance. But in all these cases the professional structure is unified, which means all professional divisions are linked and a clubs can go from one to another based on performance. It is a unified structure, even if in some countries more than one organization runs professional soccer (a division can be run either by a league or directly by the federation). Even in the od case of Brazil - where every club plays in two different pyramids, the national competions and the state competitions, there is a link between the two structures (and in Brazil after the last professional division in each state there isn't relegation... new teams must pay for a licence to go pro... once you enter a state competition you can climb to the national competitions).

French and English Rugby are basicaly the same thing.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 22:51

Hernan14 wrote:
sk 88 wrote:But there was no open promotion to the 4th tier until around 1992.

Before then the teams in the bottom few places were subject to "re-election", so if a big club or a place reasonably accessible finished in the bottom 3 they usually stayed up and only smaller clubs often from geographically remote areas were actually relegated, and even then only if a better option was on the table from the non-leagues.


Yeap, by that, lower levels still are named as non-league, but as you say, no more a closed shop from 1992 (well before they could also be expelled from the orbit of the Football League and replaced by other clubs, although there were no promotions and automatic relegations)...


Hence I wrote "had" and not have it.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 07 Jul 2018, 17:06

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Hernan14 wrote:
sk 88 wrote:But there was no open promotion to the 4th tier until around 1992.

Before then the teams in the bottom few places were subject to "re-election", so if a big club or a place reasonably accessible finished in the bottom 3 they usually stayed up and only smaller clubs often from geographically remote areas were actually relegated, and even then only if a better option was on the table from the non-leagues.


Yeap, by that, lower levels still are named as non-league, but as you say, no more a closed shop from 1992 (well before they could also be expelled from the orbit of the Football League and replaced by other clubs, although there were no promotions and automatic relegations)...


Hence I wrote "had" and not have it.


Yeap

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 25 Jul 2018, 19:08

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Wed, 25 Jul 2018, 19:18

Always found it strange how Super Rugby is chosen by many as the best competition talentwise but they just don’t seem to attract many fans. What’s up with that?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Wed, 25 Jul 2018, 19:30

Tobar wrote:Always found it strange how Super Rugby is chosen by many as the best competition talentwise but they just don’t seem to attract many fans. What’s up with that?

- they do have higher crowds than any other club rugby championship
- NZ's population is small
- Aus' population mostly likes other stuff
- In SA rugby is mostly the whites' thing, and they're a small percentage of the population

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 25 Jul 2018, 19:33

Read both articles. NZ's are not that engaged.

Auckland numbers are bizarre in a country considered to be rugby-mad.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 26 Jul 2018, 06:43



This is an absolutely awesome article. Thanks for sharing.

Edit: only thing I'm not sure the author is right is Japan. the 11k attendance of the Sunwolves includes the joke of the Singapore games.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Thu, 26 Jul 2018, 12:30

iul wrote:
Tobar wrote:Always found it strange how Super Rugby is chosen by many as the best competition talentwise but they just don’t seem to attract many fans. What’s up with that?

- they do have higher crowds than any other club rugby championship
- NZ's population is small
- Aus' population mostly likes other stuff
- In SA rugby is mostly the whites' thing, and they're a small percentage of the population


I guess what I should be saying is that I always found it strange that Super Rugby was in these giant stadiums that didn't fill much whereas most English teams play in more reasonable stadiums in the 10-15,000 range.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Thu, 26 Jul 2018, 15:55

General point about attendances - they are not always a true indicator of how popular a sport is in a country.

Compare football club match attendances in Brazil and USA, and you will see my point.

Attendances also tend to ebb and flow.

If you'd have said back in the 70s/80s that football grounds of 50,000+ capacities would be built in England by clubs to meet demands they'd have called you delusional. I think it may also be the case that Rugby Union club matches would very rarely get moved to Twickenham/Wembley and sell out like they do now.

On the flipside, we have Italy - once boasting regular 70-80,000 weekly attendances in Turin, Milan, Naples, 40,000 regular in Genoa and Fiorentina, now I think behind the USA MLS in average attendances overall.

So, we can say that these things have a cycle, influenced by (as ever) a multitude of complex factors.

Which means, we may well see attendances collapse in England, and surge ahead in other countries.

Chances are when NZ/Aus/SA attendances are back up to impressive figures, we'll probably be in the opposite end of the cycle here and see a fall.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 26 Jul 2018, 20:09

General point about attendances - they are not always a true indicator of how popular a sport is in a country.

One of the article have a research about what % of the population that cares about the local rugby franchise in NZ. It is not only about attendances.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 26 Jul 2018, 20:25

jservuk wrote:General point about attendances - they are not always a true indicator of how popular a sport is in a country.


Except that it is a massive revenue issue when you have to run a stadium built for 40k and it only has a 10-12% use rate.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Thu, 26 Jul 2018, 20:39

And it looks worse on TV and affects fans' viewing experience, whether they realize it or not.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 12 Sep 2018, 17:49

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 07:32

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12124361

We have 12 months to save our sport, warns World Rugby vice-chairman Agustin Pichot

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 07:33

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 10:29

jservuk wrote:General point about attendances - they are not always a true indicator of how popular a sport is in a country.

Compare football club match attendances in Brazil and USA, and you will see my point.

Attendances also tend to ebb and flow.

If you'd have said back in the 70s/80s that football grounds of 50,000+ capacities would be built in England by clubs to meet demands they'd have called you delusional. I think it may also be the case that Rugby Union club matches would very rarely get moved to Twickenham/Wembley and sell out like they do now.

On the flipside, we have Italy - once boasting regular 70-80,000 weekly attendances in Turin, Milan, Naples, 40,000 regular in Genoa and Fiorentina, now I think behind the USA MLS in average attendances overall.

So, we can say that these things have a cycle, influenced by (as ever) a multitude of complex factors.

Which means, we may well see attendances collapse in England, and surge ahead in other countries.

Chances are when NZ/Aus/SA attendances are back up to impressive figures, we'll probably be in the opposite end of the cycle here and see a fall.


Absolutely.

Another thing is that you should never trust official attendance figures. There was an article on the BBC the other day about attendances in the Football Premier League - many teams are overestimating their actual attendances by as much as 12-15k.

Back in the 1990s Cardiff City FC were getting average attendances of about 3,000 when they were in the basement of the English league. These days they get over 20,000. The best average attendance in the history of Welsh regional rugby was achieved by the Cardiff Blues in about 2009, where they won the challenge cup and got some 15k - most of the last few seasons they've only managed about 7k (yet in their first game this season they had 10k, no surprise that it be up after last year's successful season). Success brings results.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 16:08

If Pichot wants to "save" the international game he has to realise that the European club game has little to no effect on it.

Rugby in the Southern Hemisphere is failing because its pushing a failing model and refuses to see that the future is competitions like Forrest's not globe trotting open training sessions like "Super" Rugby.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Thu, 13 Sep 2018, 16:43

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12124276

We Need to Talk: The only All Blacks that leave are the ones who've already lost the jersey


Yeah I think that's a good discussion point. Sure there are lots of NZers leaving for more lucrative contracts in Europe but I don't recall any who were regularly playing for the All Blacks. There are capped All Blacks like Piutau but hedoesn't appear to have been considered for some time. Sopoaga seems to be a different case though. I'd like to hear more on this from someone who knows more about these players than I do.

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