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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 22:04

There's more you can do than conferences. They could build a hotel, wedding reception area, spa, office spaces, retail spaces, perhaps even a sort of mall, etc.
The sponsorships are affected by lots of fans hating the franchises because of what was done to their clubs. Take the franchises behind the barn and put them out of their misery. Go back to club rugby being the top domestic competition.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 22:14

In the case of Swansea and Llanelli you’re talking about an area of 500,000 people with a depressed economy. And you think these two should move from their new stadiums and build club grounds so they can host weddings? Malls are dying on their ass everywhere.

This is Llanelli: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... t-15123753

I have a lot of sympathy for areas like this, I come from an area not unlike this. But suggesting that clubs gamble on building new multi-million dollar stadiums, in cities that already have new stadiums, is not wise.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 22:36

4N wrote:In the case of Swansea and Llanelli you’re talking about an area of 500,000 people with a depressed economy. And you think these two should move from their new stadiums and build club grounds so they can host weddings? Malls are dying on their ass everywhere.

This is Llanelli: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... t-15123753

I have a lot of sympathy for areas like this, I come from an area not unlike this. But suggesting that clubs gamble on building new multi-million dollar stadiums, in cities that already have new stadiums, is not wise.

Ok, if a new stadium is already there buy it and develope it further by adding more revenue generating opportunities.

Also, the article you posted mentions a retail park there that is very successfull.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 22:46

It’s a town of 50,000 people iul. One retail development opened and half the tentants moved from the city center.

I agree that buying the grounds would be a better bet (Scarlets already manage Parc y Scarlets - not sure what the revenue sharing agreement is) but they also have to be careful not to get into a situation that could lead to insolvency. They would possibly earn more in TV money playing in the English league than they do in Pro 14. A Welsh Premiership is pretty much a nonstarter for this reason.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 23:17

The English clubs don't want them, so, they either continue with this mess or they go back to the club game.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 23:30

There were mistakes made when they set up the regions - wounds were caused which have not healed fifteen years later - but they need to be very careful about tweaking the system again in case they damage things even further. The idea that you could simply fold a team(s), and the supporters would go elsewhere, was the exact mistake that was made in the first place.

Having the Welsh premiership as the top level would never have and will never work, if the aim is to keep the national team players playing in Wales.

The English league might be an answer, although the idea that this would boost crowds is belied by the fact that the regions' crowds in European games against English sides are not much better than at home. But the question then is, what would the English gain from letting the Welsh sides join? They'd have to share whatever funding pot they have even further. There's a lot of sense that the English system works doesn't need changing, except perhaps to scrap promotion/relegation.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 02:06

Figaro wrote:There were mistakes made when they set up the regions - wounds were caused which have not healed fifteen years later - but they need to be very careful about tweaking the system again in case they damage things even further. The idea that you could simply fold a team(s), and the supporters would go elsewhere, was the exact mistake that was made in the first place.

Having the Welsh premiership as the top level would never have and will never work, if the aim is to keep the national team players playing in Wales.

The English league might be an answer, although the idea that this would boost crowds is belied by the fact that the regions' crowds in European games against English sides are not much better than at home. But the question then is, what would the English gain from letting the Welsh sides join? They'd have to share whatever funding pot they have even further. There's a lot of sense tha7t the English system works doesn't need changing, except perhaps to scrap promotion/relegation.


The question is how to make meaningful regional team? Scarlets only appeal to Llanelli. Blues only appeal to Cardiff. Ospreys? Not sure what Neath or Aberavon fans think about and clearly Swansea fans are not completely engaged. And the Dragons probably don't mean much outside Newport.

So, how to have teams that speak for all rugby fans? Definitly the Welsh Premiership clubs must be somehow involved, but probably the solution simply lies in having 2 strong brands catching fans from all Wales.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 09:01

Tobar wrote:Honestly, stadiums make a ton of their revenue from non-sports related activities. Concerts and major trade shows or conferences are big money makers, especially in a place like Ricoh which is the place to go for as a conference center. Sports owners in the US are realizing that they’re in the real estate business and not just the sports business.


They also cost a lot to run. The Ricoh for instance does not make a profit, or does not make enough of a profit to run the sports side at least. I don't think Cov City or Cov Council ever made the arena pay its own way and Wasps certainly haven't done. It is a fantastic facility though.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 09:15

victorsra wrote:
Figaro wrote:There were mistakes made when they set up the regions - wounds were caused which have not healed fifteen years later - but they need to be very careful about tweaking the system again in case they damage things even further. The idea that you could simply fold a team(s), and the supporters would go elsewhere, was the exact mistake that was made in the first place.

Having the Welsh premiership as the top level would never have and will never work, if the aim is to keep the national team players playing in Wales.

The English league might be an answer, although the idea that this would boost crowds is belied by the fact that the regions' crowds in European games against English sides are not much better than at home. But the question then is, what would the English gain from letting the Welsh sides join? They'd have to share whatever funding pot they have even further. There's a lot of sense tha7t the English system works doesn't need changing, except perhaps to scrap promotion/relegation.


The question is how to make meaningful regional team? Scarlets only appeal to Llanelli. Blues only appeal to Cardiff. Ospreys? Not sure what Neath or Aberavon fans think about and clearly Swansea fans are not completely engaged. And the Dragons probably don't mean much outside Newport.

So, how to have teams that speak for all rugby fans? Definitly the Welsh Premiership clubs must be somehow involved, but probably the solution simply lies in having 2 strong brands catching fans from all Wales.


Any evidence of that? Don't confuse squeaky wheels on twitter for opinions of normal people.

Ospreys are a great example that when things were going well and they were competitive they drew fans from a wide area. Now things are not going well they don't so much. This is true of all teams. You don't grow by shrinking.

The Welsh teams need to be in an Anglo-Welsh competition because the sponsorship market they are in is an Anglo-Welsh one. Llanelli as a brand is as valuable as Bath if it is exposed to UK TV audiences every week, it doesn't have the same reach in a Welsh-Irish market because the Irish firms rarely operate in the UK and vice-versa. Local factors will always hamper the Welsh sides more than, say, Bath but Cardiff economically is probably larger than Leicester for instance and Swansea will be fairly similar to Northampton.

The risk is obviously that all four Welsh sides could be mismanaged at the same time and all go down, in the same way that at one point the SW only had Bath, the Midlands at one point only had Leicester and London proper had no teams at all one season. The upside is that more than four clubs could end up being sustainable, joining the English pyramid would solve the "Ponty problem" by letting them into the Championship and then rising or falling on their own merits, and could realistically see 3 of those sides in the play offs in some seasons and would definitely see a Welsh winner within a few years if not straight away.

Is it in the English club's interest though? I can see an argument for yes and an argument for no.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 10:14

If you look at the geography, London have never had a proper team, London Welsh moved to Oxford before their demise, Saracens have been North London and have a stake in Hertfordshire Rugby, Quins are across from Twickers.. Wasps are now Midlands to the detriment of Coventry Rugby (my opinion). London Irish are in the sticks between Milton Keynes and Surbiton; their move back to Brentford will make it a proper London Club. Will that make them profitable? remains to be seen

The argument of having Welsh teams in the premiership goes back to the beginning of Professionalism and at one point London Welsh were pencilled in as the 5th Region. the economies of scale don't add up..

The idea of scrapping promotion and relegation has merit, there have been clubs that have gone bankrupt at all levels in their quest for promotion and become unsustainable. You can look up and down the leagues and you see clubs that used to be in the national leagues with facilities that leave much to be desired. the irony is the clubs that remained true to their Amateur status have flourished with good facilities and pitches.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby ihateblazers » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 10:56

Figaro wrote:There were mistakes made when they set up the regions - wounds were caused which have not healed fifteen years later - but they need to be very careful about tweaking the system again in case they damage things even further. The idea that you could simply fold a team(s), and the supporters would go elsewhere, was the exact mistake that was made in the first place.

Having the Welsh premiership as the top level would never have and will never work, if the aim is to keep the national team players playing in Wales.

The English league might be an answer, although the idea that this would boost crowds is belied by the fact that the regions' crowds in European games against English sides are not much better than at home. But the question then is, what would the English gain from letting the Welsh sides join? They'd have to share whatever funding pot they have even further. There's a lot of sense that the English system works doesn't need changing, except perhaps to scrap promotion/relegation.


I've heard that argument as well but on the other hand if they were in a Anglo Welsh comp there could be more season ticket sales due to a perception that it is a superior week to week product with more value for the fan. Most games are pretty much only attended by season ticket holders for the regions with the Welsh derbies being the only games that attract a wider audience. European matches are not particularly popular outside of Ireland anyway.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 13:18

sk 88 wrote:
Tobar wrote:Honestly, stadiums make a ton of their revenue from non-sports related activities. Concerts and major trade shows or conferences are big money makers, especially in a place like Ricoh which is the place to go for as a conference center. Sports owners in the US are realizing that they’re in the real estate business and not just the sports business.


They also cost a lot to run. The Ricoh for instance does not make a profit, or does not make enough of a profit to run the sports side at least. I don't think Cov City or Cov Council ever made the arena pay its own way and Wasps certainly haven't done. It is a fantastic facility though.


Yet the Ricoh Arena is a hugely profitable enterprise for the council and Football Investors. In 2010, after paying loan interest, the stadium operator, Arena Coventry, made £1.5m even after investing millions in facilities. The previous year, when significantly less was spent on new assets, profits after debt and tax payments were £4m.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/20 ... icoh-arena

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 13:44

Any evidence of that? Don't confuse squeaky wheels on twitter for opinions of normal people.

Ospreys are a great example that when things were going well and they were competitive they drew fans from a wide area. Now things are not going well they don't so much. This is true of all teams. You don't grow by shrinking.


OK, so at least the attendances are very low. I am not saying to shrink, I am saying the opposite. Maybe only two teams could produce better results on and off the field.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 15:42

iul wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Tobar wrote:Honestly, stadiums make a ton of their revenue from non-sports related activities. Concerts and major trade shows or conferences are big money makers, especially in a place like Ricoh which is the place to go for as a conference center. Sports owners in the US are realizing that they’re in the real estate business and not just the sports business.


They also cost a lot to run. The Ricoh for instance does not make a profit, or does not make enough of a profit to run the sports side at least. I don't think Cov City or Cov Council ever made the arena pay its own way and Wasps certainly haven't done. It is a fantastic facility though.


Yet the Ricoh Arena is a hugely profitable enterprise for the council and Football Investors. In 2010, after paying loan interest, the stadium operator, Arena Coventry, made £1.5m even after investing millions in facilities. The previous year, when significantly less was spent on new assets, profits after debt and tax payments were £4m.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/20 ... icoh-arena


Looked into the accounts properly at Companies House. Last year it lost £2.9m and the year before it lost £2m. That is just the arena and not Wasps RFC to be clear.

Interestingly the last time they made a profit was for the year ending June 2013 where they made £700k, so before Wasps took over. They have consistently lost £2m per year since Wasps have taken ownership of the arena.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 16:59

sk 88 wrote:
iul wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Tobar wrote:Honestly, stadiums make a ton of their revenue from non-sports related activities. Concerts and major trade shows or conferences are big money makers, especially in a place like Ricoh which is the place to go for as a conference center. Sports owners in the US are realizing that they’re in the real estate business and not just the sports business.


They also cost a lot to run. The Ricoh for instance does not make a profit, or does not make enough of a profit to run the sports side at least. I don't think Cov City or Cov Council ever made the arena pay its own way and Wasps certainly haven't done. It is a fantastic facility though.


Yet the Ricoh Arena is a hugely profitable enterprise for the council and Football Investors. In 2010, after paying loan interest, the stadium operator, Arena Coventry, made £1.5m even after investing millions in facilities. The previous year, when significantly less was spent on new assets, profits after debt and tax payments were £4m.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/20 ... icoh-arena


Looked into the accounts properly at Companies House. Last year it lost £2.9m and the year before it lost £2m. That is just the arena and not Wasps RFC to be clear.

Interestingly the last time they made a profit was for the year ending June 2013 where they made £700k, so before Wasps took over. They have consistently lost £2m per year since Wasps have taken ownership of the arena.

Are wasps paying rent?
Could it be that they're losing money because of the interest payments, but still manage to reduce their debts?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 19:12

The chaos, fear and bitterness simmering under the surface of Welsh rugby

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... r-15885741

This article summarises the situation

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 01:15

Re growing RU in T1 countries, according to The Independant, 6N Rugby is now bigger than football in UK (well, that's one reading of it):

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 96301.html

Now, comparing 6N to a FA Cup ties, something that even people in football now see as a 2nd class competition, is not a fair comparison. But doubtless this will embolden the 6N bosses to keep their little club a closed affair.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 27 Feb 2019, 12:20

iul wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
iul wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Tobar wrote:Honestly, stadiums make a ton of their revenue from non-sports related activities. Concerts and major trade shows or conferences are big money makers, especially in a place like Ricoh which is the place to go for as a conference center. Sports owners in the US are realizing that they’re in the real estate business and not just the sports business.


They also cost a lot to run. The Ricoh for instance does not make a profit, or does not make enough of a profit to run the sports side at least. I don't think Cov City or Cov Council ever made the arena pay its own way and Wasps certainly haven't done. It is a fantastic facility though.


Yet the Ricoh Arena is a hugely profitable enterprise for the council and Football Investors. In 2010, after paying loan interest, the stadium operator, Arena Coventry, made £1.5m even after investing millions in facilities. The previous year, when significantly less was spent on new assets, profits after debt and tax payments were £4m.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/20 ... icoh-arena


Looked into the accounts properly at Companies House. Last year it lost £2.9m and the year before it lost £2m. That is just the arena and not Wasps RFC to be clear.

Interestingly the last time they made a profit was for the year ending June 2013 where they made £700k, so before Wasps took over. They have consistently lost £2m per year since Wasps have taken ownership of the arena.

Are wasps paying rent?
Could it be that they're losing money because of the interest payments, but still manage to reduce their debts?


So there debt structure is not paying off any of the capital. They pay a 7%coupon to the bond holders but don't repay any capital until it becomes due (around 2022 I think) when all the capital will be due at the same time. As they have no cash pile they will have to re-finance, either through another bond issue or more mainstream forms of finance. Last year they lost £1.9m before interest payments.

You can read the accounts, going back all the way, here:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/04440684/filing-history

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby gambass » Wed, 27 Feb 2019, 12:30

Strasbourg (Fédérale 1) is going bankrupt, just like Lille and Marseille did a few years ago.

Our Fédérale leagues are not really working when it comes to expand the map of french rugby...

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 27 Feb 2019, 12:39

But Rouen is doing great, right? It is a big metropolitan area without top flight football.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby gambass » Wed, 27 Feb 2019, 13:07

victorsra wrote:But Rouen is doing great, right? It is a big metropolitan area without top flight football.


Yes (they are likely to get promoted). But only, because a local business man is supporting it (just like in Nevers).

From a non traditionnal aera, it's the only way to success.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby vino_93 » Wed, 27 Feb 2019, 14:39

gambass wrote:Strasbourg (Fédérale 1) is going bankrupt, just like Lille and Marseille did a few years ago.

Our Fédérale leagues are not really working when it comes to expand the map of french rugby...


Lille money is now put on Marcq en Baroeul. Club will likely be promoted in Fédérale 1.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby amz » Thu, 28 Feb 2019, 10:01

When I saw first this thread when it started I thought it is too pedantic...in the context of the new world league, I think it is quite useless :))

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Blurandski » Thu, 28 Feb 2019, 11:40

The world league won't grow the game in T1 nations either, the 6N behind a paywall will kill the sport dead in the UK.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 28 Feb 2019, 11:41

As an Australian I can confirm already what happens to a sport when it goes behind a paywall.

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