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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby NaBUru38 » Sun, 28 Jul 2019, 16:26

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-four-regions-playing-new-16621172

Competitive Anglo-Welsh games against the cream of England, it is thought, would attract larger attendances, bigger away followings, better atmospheres and a superior product.


Better than playing Munster, Leinster and Glasgow? I doubt so.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Blurandski » Sun, 28 Jul 2019, 22:41

NaBUru38 wrote:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-four-regions-playing-new-16621172

Competitive Anglo-Welsh games against the cream of England, it is thought, would attract larger attendances, bigger away followings, better atmospheres and a superior product.


Better than playing Munster, Leinster and Glasgow? I doubt so.



There's little doubt that Anglo-Welsh games would see a large uplift in attendance. There's a massive (southern) English population that lives in South Wales, and all the historic rivalries in Wales are with the English clubs. The only issue with the whole idea is that Wales are the only ones keen on it, the English clubs at large like playing themselves, and the P14 serves Ireland/Scotland/Italy well.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 04:04

Very interesting to think PRO14 is in the centre of T1 rugby's future. It can either disrupt Sanzaar's structure (if it expands to embrace all South African top rugby + Argentina) or simply disappear being swallowed by the Premiership.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 06:45

Thomas wrote:Couldn't find the right topic but I came across the IRB Strategic plan from 2004

http://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2014/11/12/846ce431-bed4-4980-83d0-b8a6d035dfe0/041207IRBStrategicPlan_772.pdf

and here's a more up to date version

I am still comparing them side by side but makes interesting reading what has been met and also how the governing has evolved in 15 years.

http://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2014/11/12/77d26bdc-4a13-448c-a503-2c6f9b8b50a3/2041808_PDF.pdf

https://www.world.rugby/strategic-plan?lang=en

I cannot find the Pre-2000 plan. still searching internet Archives.


So what have they actually achieved? It would be great if you could do a little write-up which goals they've met. Very interesting find.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby dropkick » Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 08:05

Blurandski wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-four-regions-playing-new-16621172

Competitive Anglo-Welsh games against the cream of England, it is thought, would attract larger attendances, bigger away followings, better atmospheres and a superior product.


Better than playing Munster, Leinster and Glasgow? I doubt so.



There's little doubt that Anglo-Welsh games would see a large uplift in attendance
. There's a massive (southern) English population that lives in South Wales, and all the historic rivalries in Wales are with the English clubs. The only issue with the whole idea is that Wales are the only ones keen on it, the English clubs at large like playing themselves, and the P14 serves Ireland/Scotland/Italy well.



It doesn't happen in the champions cup and the anglo-Welsh cup has dismal attendances.


There's a kind of desperation/delusion that an Anglo Welsh league will fix all their problems but their problem are the regions themselves. For those who don't know, this is where they are located in Wales.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... egions.png

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 29 Jul 2019, 09:48

dropkick wrote:
Blurandski wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-four-regions-playing-new-16621172

Competitive Anglo-Welsh games against the cream of England, it is thought, would attract larger attendances, bigger away followings, better atmospheres and a superior product.


Better than playing Munster, Leinster and Glasgow? I doubt so.



There's little doubt that Anglo-Welsh games would see a large uplift in attendance
. There's a massive (southern) English population that lives in South Wales, and all the historic rivalries in Wales are with the English clubs. The only issue with the whole idea is that Wales are the only ones keen on it, the English clubs at large like playing themselves, and the P14 serves Ireland/Scotland/Italy well.



It doesn't happen in the champions cup and the anglo-Welsh cup has dismal attendances.


There's a kind of desperation/delusion that an Anglo Welsh league will fix all their problems but their problem are the regions themselves. For those who don't know, this is where they are located in Wales.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... egions.png


It can happen Champions Cup, Cardiff Blues got their highest attendance of the season (12,018) vs Saracens.

I agree that the problem is the regions, but have you ever seen a population heatmap of Wales? The population almost entirely lives in South Wales, or North East Wales, with very little in-between. https://jacothenorth.net/blog/wp-conten ... 9x1024.jpg. North East Wales prefers football to rugby.

The issue is that the traditional rugby valleys don't feel represented by their 'region', and hotbeds of rugby like Newport have a joke of a 'region'.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Edgar » Wed, 14 Aug 2019, 16:34

Rugby is the 9th most popular sport in the world but its global appeal is restricted by too many players, complex rules, the widening gap between amateurs and pros, and a lack of genuine super stars of the Jonah Lomu variety - according to this:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNAm9L8 ... XCdaHd2jyA



Personally I think the increasing physicality in the professional era is going to create major challenges for the game's survival this century. Secondary schools rugby is obviously the main production line for the game's future senior players, so when numbers are on the decline in a rugby-mad nation like New Zealand, serious questions need to be asked. The big hits may look good on TV screens but they're not going to encourage parents to sign their kids up for rugby and it's a good thing World Rugby is addressing this, along with other issues.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Aug 2019, 20:29

Edgar wrote:Rugby is the 9th most popular sport in the world but its global appeal is restricted by too many players, complex rules, the widening gap between amateurs and pros, and a lack of genuine super stars of the Jonah Lomu variety - according to this:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNAm9L8 ... XCdaHd2jyA


Personally I think the increasing physicality in the professional era is going to create major challenges for the game's survival this century. Secondary schools rugby is obviously the main production line for the game's future senior players, so when numbers are on the decline in a rugby-mad nation like New Zealand, serious questions need to be asked. The big hits may look good on TV screens but they're not going to encourage parents to sign their kids up for rugby and it's a good thing World Rugby is addressing this, along with other issues.


9th based on what?

It is at best the 5th TEAM sport in terms of audience and defintly far from that in participation.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 00:18

I think money might play a factor in determining that ranking. Table Tennis is not going to get much in terms of TV revenue outside of Asia. I don't think rugby is too difficult a game to get into, it's tricky to explain but there are a lot of sports in that list I'd argue aren't easy to explain to new audiences, cricket and baseball being one of them. It's biggest draw back is the governing body is stuck between two worlds, the old guard who have propped up the sport for a hundred years, and the desire to reach bigger and lucrative markets.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 08:17

Here's the source of the You Tube video:
[url]
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/wha ... world.html[/url]

Rugby has its primary sphere of influence in the United Kingdom and Commonwealth, and an estimated global following of 475 Million people. The foundation of the modern day sport was laid out in medieval England. From the UK, it spread to British colonies such as Australia and New Zealand. The sport is played by two teams of 15 players each, who carry, kick or pass a ball across the end line to score points.

450 Million is a bit of a stretch in my opinion if you base the above explanation for so many followers. That definition is for Rugby Union exclusively. If you include Rugby League, Touch and Tag Rugby then I agree is number 9 in the world.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 09:17

Rugby would be lucky to have 45 million supporters.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 10:20

thatrugbyguy wrote:Rugby would be lucky to have 45 million supporters.

They're claiming 6% of the world's population are rugby fans :lol:.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Edgar » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 12:32

450 million fans does seem a tad fanciful. I'm not sure where these figures come from. Meanwhile, a number of the other sports have the advantage of being mainstream in one of the world's three most populous nations - cricket and field hockey in India, ping pong in China and both basketball and baseball in the US. Even American football has over a million registered players at high school level, though rugby's 2.3 million players overall heads it off as the second most played football code behind soccer. Rugby probably has more of a global spread as well, with over 100 nations affiliated to World Rugby now, and one of the requirements being organized domestic competition. I would imagine that, among team sports, only soccer and (possibly) basketball have more of a global spread than rugby.

I mentioned above one of the main challenges rugby faces, in my view. Another would be the predictability of international competition with relatively few upsets at the top level. Of course, there are surprises, as we saw just last weekend - and also at the last World Cup where Japan caused one of the biggest shocks ever. People are still talking about that game, and with good reason. Those kind of upsets are extremely rare in rugby. At the 2003 RWC, for example, there was precisely one upset from 48 games - Australia's defeat of NZ. It was mind-numbing. Most of us can pick rugby's winners with at least 90% accuracy, so that the main interest in any prediction league will always be the winning margins. A sport needs to be competitive in order to maintain maximum public interest, but rugby's show piece tournament is by and large a lopsided affair.

Of course, the game as a spectacle needs to be considered as well. A lot of the individual artistry which characterized rugby in the amateur era has disappeared and been replaced by a power-based game, as many foresaw at the outset of professionalism. The constant re-setting of scrums is also a poor advertisement, while the most tedious aspect (IMHO) are the repetitive attempts to wriggle across from a scrum or ruck at close range, eventually culminating in a try that no one could actually see due to the multitude of bodies piled on top of the ball-carrier. I'm not sure if everyone sees it this way, and I certainly don't claim to have the answers. World Rugby is actively engaged in trying to make the game safer and more entertaining, experimenting with new laws on a regular basis.

Meanwhile, the Samoan Observer has picked up on this article about player numbers in the Roar: https://www.samoaobserver.ws/category/s ... 70E8xCQ9K0

& Campo is not happy at missing out on the NSW coaching job: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/david-c ... eEvP74d.97

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 12:41

iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Rugby would be lucky to have 45 million supporters.

They're claiming 6% of the world's population are rugby fans :lol:.


Let's do the math. This is the population of the T1 nations:
UK: 67 million
South Africa: 57 million
Australia: 24 million
New Zealand: 5 million
Ireland: 6 million
France: 67 million
Argentina: 45 million
Italy: 60 million

331 million total. Out of that population I'd say at best 10% are rugby fans. That's 33 million fans. Add in the fans from all other nations and you're probably looking at best 50 million rugby fans globally.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 13:07

Edgar wrote:450 million fans does seem a tad fanciful. I'm not sure where these figures come from. Meanwhile, a number of the other sports have the advantage of being mainstream in one of the world's three most populous nations - cricket and field hockey in India, ping pong in China and both basketball and baseball in the US.

Basketball has a more global appeal than the rest of sports you mention in that list. It's basically second or third sport in most continental Europe, has solid groundings in Brazil, Argentina or Venezuela in the Americas or Australia and China in the Pacific and is quite loved in less sporting countries like Philippines or Iran.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 13:32

Basketball, cricket, and field hockey doesn't surprise me too much as being more popular. Funnily enough the Basketball World Cup finishes just 5 days prior to RWC 2019. I've also just realised FIBA expanded its tournament to 32 nations this year.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 13:47

50 million rugby fans globally.

This means baseball in the USA alone is the same size? Don't need to count Latin America and East Asia!

And cricket? You don't even need to count India or UK or Oceania. Just put the other South Asian countries (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) and it is probably this.

Basketball obviously is the second biggest team sport in the world and soccer doesn't need any math. There you are: 5th team sport at best!

And I don't know how to count Ice Hockey fans. North America, Russia, Scandinavia... maybe less than rugby but not far from it?

Just making clear. Populariy = number of people, no matter where they come from or how much money they have. We are not discussing economy (and rugby's economy is poor anyway... just look at how much clubs/franchises can pay players).

Even geograhical widespread we are fooling ourselves. Taking T1s, rugy has: 4 countries in Europe (France, Italy, Ireland and UK), Oceania, South Africa, Argentina + Japan. Cricket has 2 countries in Europa, a much bigger (in terms of population) part of Asia (5 countries), Oceania, South Africa, and the Caribbean (and Jamaica alone is 2x bigger than the 3 the Pacific Islands together BTW). What's the difference? Argentina and Japan? Well, cricket's size in Asia covers that. And what about baseball? USA+Canada, at least 5 major countries in Caribbean circle (Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba, Dominican Rep and Puerto Rico), Japan (where it is MUCH bigger than rugby), Korea, Taiwan... less areas? Yes, but big population.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 13:56

What's weird is that I can totally believe field hockey being bigger than rugby, and yet I couldn't tell you outside of the Olympics when their world cup is, what international tournaments teams play in, or how many professional domestic leagues there are.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 13:59

I don't think it's bigger. It's way more elitist than rugby and therefore even if its spread across the globe is big it isn't as mainstream.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby mcv_T2 » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 14:11

victorsra wrote: There you are: 5th team sport at best!


Actually 6th at best. The list missed volleyball!

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 14:38

Volleyball is not that important as a professional spectators sport in most countries. Apart from Brazil (and even year Superliga is being left behind NBB) and a couple of Eastern European countries (maybe Iran?), it is not that popular to watch. Even in France and Italy, that have great leagues, it is behind basketball, for exemple. Don't how much the Chinese watch it either. Volleyball is probably much bigger in participation than as spectacle.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 14:45

Women’s college volleyball is fairly popular in some places in the US. Certain schools can average crowds close to 10k. Usually places with no pro sports. The University of Hawaii women’s volleyball team is probably the second most popular in the state after their football team.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 14:49

And don't forget Team Handball. Widespread in Continental Europe (with much more professional leagues than rugby, right?), North Africa, Middle East (2nd sport in the Arab world?) and South America.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 14:52

4N wrote:Women’s college volleyball is fairly popular in some places in the US. Certain schools can average crowds close to 10k. Usually places with no pro sports. The University of Hawaii women’s volleyball team is probably the second most popular in the state after their football team.

True. Probably Volleyball is the sport that men's and women's games are closer in terms of popularity. But USA can't make it professional...
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby mcv_T2 » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 15:24


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