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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 15:36

Good effort, but still with problems. Hard to see Field Hockey in 4th place. Proabably because they counted it as popular in India, but it is experiecing a crisis in India at the point there are no current professional leagues there... in fact, apart from the national teams world leasgue, field hockey barely has professional leagues (maybe Netherlands? I don't know).
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 20:17

The field hockey popularity seems bullshit to me. Do they even have any pro leagues? With such a supposed large audience surely they would have players earning millions playing that game even if it was popular in poor countries ( see how much money cricket is generating from India)

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 20:39

Please remember not to confuse amateur and professional sports. Athletics is inmensely popular as an amateur sport. Few adults play American football outside NFL and college.

An approximate could be to add the home viewers for each team at the World Cup. In other words, if someone doesn't watch their national team at the World Cup, then don't count them.

According to World Rugby, the 2015 World Cup final had 120 million viewers. With more realistic numbers, the 2015 England-Walesd had 10 million viewers on ITV.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 22:00

The whole idea of "most popular sport" is mambo jambo. Amateur vs Professional is also not quite good definition. You must point the difference between a COMPETITIVE amateur sport (with competitions played by amateurs) and non-competitive practice (sports played by amateurs for health or only pleasure reasons). You can swim or kick a foot ball with friends in a school or ride a bike in the street or run in a park and this is very different from playing rugby in an amateur league.

You must select one definition: Most Watched Sport? Watched by total audiences or by number of people that watch it regularly? Audiences on TV or streamings too? Sport with more competitive players? Sport with more people engaged? Professional Sport with the biggest economy? Those are different, very different things.

About professional sports, I'd love to see a study that takes like the top 3 or 5 events (event being 1 match/race/finals day) of each sport and make an average audience of it through a 10 or 12-years (3 four-years-cycles) period. This would show an interesting scenario of how much attention each sport can draw. The long period is important because audiences vary according to the teams/players involved and according to time zones of the events and, because of this, it is important to analyse each sport to select which events to use in such study.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 22:14

The sad truth is that such a study is unlikely because all actors of professional sport worldwide are quite comfortable in indefinition and wouldn't pay for it.

You would be amazed by the ludicrous claims in the sports pecking orders that are shown at corporate level to justify sponsorship deals for example.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 22:42

Armchair Fan wrote:The sad truth is that such a study is unlikely because all actors of professional sport worldwide are quite comfortable in indefinition and wouldn't pay for it.

You would be amazed by the ludicrous claims in the sports pecking orders that are shown at corporate level to justify sponsorship deals for example.


everybody believes to be the second after soccer :lol:
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 15 Aug 2019, 23:07

No, the most repeated lie is the claim that your event is the third most followed after the Olympics and FIFA WC.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 07:47

thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Rugby would be lucky to have 45 million supporters.

They're claiming 6% of the world's population are rugby fans :lol:.


Let's do the math. This is the population of the T1 nations:
UK: 67 million
South Africa: 57 million
Australia: 24 million
New Zealand: 5 million
Ireland: 6 million
France: 67 million
Argentina: 45 million
Italy: 60 million

331 million total. Out of that population I'd say at best 10% are rugby fans. That's 33 million fans. Add in the fans from all other nations and you're probably looking at best 50 million rugby fans globally.


Well the home TV viewing figures for the RWC on ITV and 6N on BBC top 10m in UK alone, lots of people watch some but not all games and lots watch in clubs and pubs so don't get counted in those figures, so I could easily imagine upwards of 15m people watch at least 1 rugby game a season in the UK if not much more like 20m. If that's their definition of following you could easily see the 300m figure worldwide. The NZ v USA match a few years ago had 1m people watching in USA, the Japan v Scotland game had an audience of something like 20m in Japan.

"Following" is a vague term with a low bar. I bet that many people do "follow" rugby in the sense I follow cricket or college football in USA.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 09:34

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Thomas wrote:Couldn't find the right topic but I came across the IRB Strategic plan from 2004

http://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2014/11/12/846ce431-bed4-4980-83d0-b8a6d035dfe0/041207IRBStrategicPlan_772.pdf

and here's a more up to date version

I am still comparing them side by side but makes interesting reading what has been met and also how the governing has evolved in 15 years.

http://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2014/11/12/77d26bdc-4a13-448c-a503-2c6f9b8b50a3/2041808_PDF.pdf

https://www.world.rugby/strategic-plan?lang=en

I cannot find the Pre-2000 plan. still searching internet Archives.


So what have they actually achieved? It would be great if you could do a little write-up which goals they've met. Very interesting find.


Let me put it to you this way, they like to muddle things, there is a strategic plan that was created while still called IRB before the name change and subsequent revision of the plan. I cannot find the pre-2000 plan. I know there is one.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 11:48

Armchair Fan wrote:No, the most repeated lie is the claim that your event is the third most followed after the Olympics and FIFA WC.


A claim that has always annoyed me. But to be honest I don’t believe any of the figures for most of these tournaments. FIFA can claim all they want 40 Billion people watched their World Cup, the reality is most games would have gotten 100-200 million viewers at best.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 12:55

Yes but the only one that is for sure the number 1 in the World is FIFA WC and soccer. The rest is only inventing their position. Pay attention: none of these events or federations say who is the sport/event right below them. Nobody shows a ranking. The only rankings are those independent ones that are pure guessing.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 12:58

sk 88 wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Rugby would be lucky to have 45 million supporters.

They're claiming 6% of the world's population are rugby fans :lol:.


Let's do the math. This is the population of the T1 nations:
UK: 67 million
South Africa: 57 million
Australia: 24 million
New Zealand: 5 million
Ireland: 6 million
France: 67 million
Argentina: 45 million
Italy: 60 million

331 million total. Out of that population I'd say at best 10% are rugby fans. That's 33 million fans. Add in the fans from all other nations and you're probably looking at best 50 million rugby fans globally.


Well the home TV viewing figures for the RWC on ITV and 6N on BBC top 10m in UK alone, lots of people watch some but not all games and lots watch in clubs and pubs so don't get counted in those figures, so I could easily imagine upwards of 15m people watch at least 1 rugby game a season in the UK if not much more like 20m. If that's their definition of following you could easily see the 300m figure worldwide. The NZ v USA match a few years ago had 1m people watching in USA, the Japan v Scotland game had an audience of something like 20m in Japan.

"Following" is a vague term with a low bar. I bet that many people do "follow" rugby in the sense I follow cricket or college football in USA.


Yep, the Brazilian Rugby Union says rugby is "followed" by millions here 8-) that's probably the number of people that saw it being shown on TV (and maybe not matches,only reporting).
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 14:17

victorsra wrote:Yes but the only one that is for sure the number 1 in the World is FIFA WC and soccer. The rest is only inventing their position. Pay attention: none of these events or federations say who is the sport/event right below them. Nobody shows a ranking. The only rankings are those independent ones that are pure guessing.


The reality is it’s too difficult to really judge who’s ranked where. Rugby has a lot of potential growth, it just doesn’t have the right plan to do it.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Edgar » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 21:28

Armchair Fan wrote:
Edgar wrote:450 million fans does seem a tad fanciful. I'm not sure where these figures come from. Meanwhile, a number of the other sports have the advantage of being mainstream in one of the world's three most populous nations - cricket and field hockey in India, ping pong in China and both basketball and baseball in the US.



Earlier I mentioned the laws and changing nature of the game in the professional era, along with the grinding predictability of international competition. I think another matter to be considered is poor media coverage of rugby outside the established playing nations. Mainstream rugby websites claiming "international" coverage really only appear interested in tier one rugby. Brazil's stunning upset of the Argentina XV last year received no mention, for example. One site claiming “planetary” coverage of the sport ran 15 stories about European club competition next day, and 14 about Super Rugby, but nothing about this astonishing international result, which would ultimately set Os Tupis up for the South American title. When a sports-mad nation of 200 million people signals its arrival in the big time, you'd think the game's international journalism industry might sit up and take notice. But not in rugby, which has yet to shed its elitist mentality almost two centuries after emerging from the public schools of Britain.

Now available in article form: https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/08/17/t ... u-variety/

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 21:56

That's an interesting discussion. Not sure if this is particular to rugby.

For exemple: soccer is totaly Eurocentric. Up to the early 1990s, South American clubs were as strong as European clubs - and very often South Americam powerhouses beat European clubs, even in European soil. This was an undisputed claim until the 1980s, when European clubs started to be more interested in South American players. But it took more than a decade to see Brazil, Argentina or Uruguay national teams being made up of more Europe-based players than South America-based players. It was only in the last 20-25 years this changed.

Obviously, South American soccer fans always supported only South American clubs but this is starting to changed right now with young generations. Even though, when South American clubs were really powerful, how much about South American club soccer Europeans knew about? Almost nothing.

And look, it would be comparable in rugby if NH knew nothing about SH. But obviously this doesn't happen in rugby because after all SA, Aus and NZ were part of the Empire. However, why would they look outside their all imperial world? Even French club rugby is overlooked by main "international" rugby (english language) press. And they know nothing about Argentina apart from Pumas (and now Jaguares). Tupis cause, like Georgia's much more real cause, were already lost.

And needless o say American basketball fans know nothing about European basketball (and national teams basketball in general). And not sure but I bet American baseball fans also know nothing about Japanese baseball, for exemple.

Well, the same way Brazilian soccer fans are arrogant enough to not follow other South American football leagues, not even Argentina's (although this changed in the past decade a bit). And they are always surprised when their beloved club is smashed in Copa Libertadores...

Of course I am not talking about sports nerds. It is about the average fan.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 22:19

victorsra wrote:And needless to say American basketball fans know nothing about European basketball (and national teams basketball in general). And not sure but I bet American baseball fans also know nothing about Japanese baseball, for exemple.

[...]

Of course I am not talking about sports nerds. It is about the average fan.

I don't know, I think this has changed for the last 15 years. Losing at 2004 Olympics and 2002 and 2006 FIBA WC, having European #1 in the NBA Draft, then franchise players and MVP, then even coaches or finding out that European teens were better than NCAA guys has made American fans more knowledgeable than in the past. NBA TV has often given coverage to Eurobasket or Euroleague as well.

But it is a completely different mentality. NBA has NBA as its only business, but that didn't made them overlook the fact that caring about the outer world was going to increase their revenues, not the opposite.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 17 Aug 2019, 02:18

victorsra wrote:
And needless o say American basketball fans know nothing about European basketball (and national teams basketball in general). And not sure but I bet American baseball fans also know nothing about Japanese baseball, for exemple.

Well, the same way Brazilian soccer fans are arrogant enough to not follow other South American football leagues, not even Argentina's (although this changed in the past decade a bit). And they are always surprised when their beloved club is smashed in Copa Libertadores...

Of course I am not talking about sports nerds. It is about the average fan.


Well most average fans really don't care about anyone else's league in any part of the world. That's why they're average. Everyone on here or the R/rugbyunion reddit is a nerd.

When it comes to Japanese Baseball or European basketball there is definitely an awareness. I'd say the FIBA WC doesn't have nearly as much awareness because of how USA Basketball chooses to operate...basically the only time things matter is during the Olympics and the World Cup. I have a collegiate classmate that plays for Nigeria.

Baseball, there is definitely an awareness of overseas stuff because there's huge commercial products like the Little League World Series that brings teams from all over the world to compete at Williamsport. The World Baseball Classic and the reason why people know about it is because it's a major initiative of Major League Baseball. Although some teams don't like releasing players, we still put out really good teams. Perhaps not the best we could, but pretty solid. There is zero coverage of foreign baseball or basketball leagues because they're not rated as high leagues as the de facto top league is the American version.

Korean Baseball is rated at the AA Level, and the top Japan league as AAA. Could I tell you who the stars are? No, but those games are on when I'm asleep. But we know they exist. There is a tremendous difference with Soccer and Rugby though, because the European leagues are at watchable times for the US Market and they are considered the best leagues in the World. If say MLR gets on par with them there will be a different demand for the foreign product.


Different topic: I wrote this piece on the Western Force and Rapid Rugby- https://www.earfulofdirt.com/2019/08/th ... y-for.html

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 17 Aug 2019, 06:27

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:
And needless o say American basketball fans know nothing about European basketball (and national teams basketball in general). And not sure but I bet American baseball fans also know nothing about Japanese baseball, for exemple.

Well, the same way Brazilian soccer fans are arrogant enough to not follow other South American football leagues, not even Argentina's (although this changed in the past decade a bit). And they are always surprised when their beloved club is smashed in Copa Libertadores...

Of course I am not talking about sports nerds. It is about the average fan.


Well most average fans really don't care about anyone else's league in any part of the world. That's why they're average. Everyone on here or the R/rugbyunion reddit is a nerd.

When it comes to Japanese Baseball or European basketball there is definitely an awareness. I'd say the FIBA WC doesn't have nearly as much awareness because of how USA Basketball chooses to operate...basically the only time things matter is during the Olympics and the World Cup. I have a collegiate classmate that plays for Nigeria.

Baseball, there is definitely an awareness of overseas stuff because there's huge commercial products like the Little League World Series that brings teams from all over the world to compete at Williamsport. The World Baseball Classic and the reason why people know about it is because it's a major initiative of Major League Baseball. Although some teams don't like releasing players, we still put out really good teams. Perhaps not the best we could, but pretty solid. There is zero coverage of foreign baseball or basketball leagues because they're not rated as high leagues as the de facto top league is the American version.

Korean Baseball is rated at the AA Level, and the top Japan league as AAA. Could I tell you who the stars are? No, but those games are on when I'm asleep. But we know they exist. There is a tremendous difference with Soccer and Rugby though, because the European leagues are at watchable times for the US Market and they are considered the best leagues in the World. If say MLR gets on par with them there will be a different demand for the foreign product.


Different topic: I wrote this piece on the Western Force and Rapid Rugby- https://www.earfulofdirt.com/2019/08/th ... y-for.html


Which Force game are you referring to? Not the Valke. They managed only a touch over 8k for that one. Fiji were the biggest draws pulling more than 12k.

The games this year we're as a whole entertaining and played at a rapid pace for the most part. The trial variations certainly didn't negatively impact the game. The least competitive match was the Force/Valke match. Which was interesting in itself.

Glad you enjoyed Perth. Spent many a weekend there when I lived on the states NW coast. Did you venture to Rottnest Is. while you were there?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sat, 17 Aug 2019, 13:33

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:
And needless o say American basketball fans know nothing about European basketball (and national teams basketball in general). And not sure but I bet American baseball fans also know nothing about Japanese baseball, for exemple.

Well, the same way Brazilian soccer fans are arrogant enough to not follow other South American football leagues, not even Argentina's (although this changed in the past decade a bit). And they are always surprised when their beloved club is smashed in Copa Libertadores...

Of course I am not talking about sports nerds. It is about the average fan.


Well most average fans really don't care about anyone else's league in any part of the world. That's why they're average. Everyone on here or the R/rugbyunion reddit is a nerd.

When it comes to Japanese Baseball or European basketball there is definitely an awareness. I'd say the FIBA WC doesn't have nearly as much awareness because of how USA Basketball chooses to operate...basically the only time things matter is during the Olympics and the World Cup. I have a collegiate classmate that plays for Nigeria.

Baseball, there is definitely an awareness of overseas stuff because there's huge commercial products like the Little League World Series that brings teams from all over the world to compete at Williamsport. The World Baseball Classic and the reason why people know about it is because it's a major initiative of Major League Baseball. Although some teams don't like releasing players, we still put out really good teams. Perhaps not the best we could, but pretty solid. There is zero coverage of foreign baseball or basketball leagues because they're not rated as high leagues as the de facto top league is the American version.

Korean Baseball is rated at the AA Level, and the top Japan league as AAA. Could I tell you who the stars are? No, but those games are on when I'm asleep. But we know they exist. There is a tremendous difference with Soccer and Rugby though, because the European leagues are at watchable times for the US Market and they are considered the best leagues in the World. If say MLR gets on par with them there will be a different demand for the foreign product.


Different topic: I wrote this piece on the Western Force and Rapid Rugby- https://www.earfulofdirt.com/2019/08/th ... y-for.html


If there are no live broadcast available in major broadcasters (obscure ones don't count, everything is available nowadays somehow) or news in major sports websites (an this is the crucial thing), there is no awareness apart from sports geeks like us (and many others... the world of internet allows the growth of people that want to break ther bubbles). So, the question is: is European Basketball broadcastes and often in the news in NA? That's the point.

For exemple, Brazilian football is shown all over the world because it is easy to do that - and of course in bad viewership times, due to time zones differences. But it is not in the news. I do this frequently: I search in major international soccer websites when the Brazilian champions are defined and guess what? Not in the news in the Anglosphere. Not even a small note. And we are not talking about a random league. So, how to expect those journalists will publish anything about, let's say, Georgian rugby? Specially now that journalism is suffering with less money. The claim about awareness about T2 rugby is a lost cause. It must come from the top: World Rugby and continental unions.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 01:17

Working Class Rugger wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:
And needless o say American basketball fans know nothing about European basketball (and national teams basketball in general). And not sure but I bet American baseball fans also know nothing about Japanese baseball, for exemple.

Well, the same way Brazilian soccer fans are arrogant enough to not follow other South American football leagues, not even Argentina's (although this changed in the past decade a bit). And they are always surprised when their beloved club is smashed in Copa Libertadores...

Of course I am not talking about sports nerds. It is about the average fan.


Well most average fans really don't care about anyone else's league in any part of the world. That's why they're average. Everyone on here or the R/rugbyunion reddit is a nerd.

When it comes to Japanese Baseball or European basketball there is definitely an awareness. I'd say the FIBA WC doesn't have nearly as much awareness because of how USA Basketball chooses to operate...basically the only time things matter is during the Olympics and the World Cup. I have a collegiate classmate that plays for Nigeria.

Baseball, there is definitely an awareness of overseas stuff because there's huge commercial products like the Little League World Series that brings teams from all over the world to compete at Williamsport. The World Baseball Classic and the reason why people know about it is because it's a major initiative of Major League Baseball. Although some teams don't like releasing players, we still put out really good teams. Perhaps not the best we could, but pretty solid. There is zero coverage of foreign baseball or basketball leagues because they're not rated as high leagues as the de facto top league is the American version.

Korean Baseball is rated at the AA Level, and the top Japan league as AAA. Could I tell you who the stars are? No, but those games are on when I'm asleep. But we know they exist. There is a tremendous difference with Soccer and Rugby though, because the European leagues are at watchable times for the US Market and they are considered the best leagues in the World. If say MLR gets on par with them there will be a different demand for the foreign product.


Different topic: I wrote this piece on the Western Force and Rapid Rugby- https://www.earfulofdirt.com/2019/08/th ... y-for.html


Which Force game are you referring to? Not the Valke. They managed only a touch over 8k for that one. Fiji were the biggest draws pulling more than 12k.

The games this year we're as a whole entertaining and played at a rapid pace for the most part. The trial variations certainly didn't negatively impact the game. The least competitive match was the Force/Valke match. Which was interesting in itself.

Glad you enjoyed Perth. Spent many a weekend there when I lived on the states NW coast. Did you venture to Rottnest Is. while you were there?



The Force game I was at was the Valke. Rottnest Island looks beautiful, but I was only in Australia 3 1/2 days...major shock to my circadian rhythm.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Raven » Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 17:40

Speculative news coming from Scotland, the kind of articles we like to read....

https://www.scotlandrugbynews.com/2019/ ... IBfajoC4js

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 19:27

Find it a bit interesting that Super6 is hardly mentioned here, despite being the new semipro setup. Would’ve thought that he would tie that into the discussion.

Interesting read. Most people I know of think 3 is too many to handle and this guy sounds very optimistic that it can get local interest. Aberdeen is the 3rd largest city with only 200,000 residents. It could work, but tbh I get the impression that Super6 is the “smarter” way to go.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby dropkick » Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 20:28

I think theyre not far off from being able to create another competitive team. Edinburgh and Glasgow are both top half of the pro14 now.


It'll be more interesting to see what the Welsh do. Will the WRU give the regions more funding.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Wed, 20 Nov 2019, 22:18

Funnily enough theres an interview with Warren Gatland come out where he's s that, if it were up to him, Wales would have a northern region at the expense of one of the Southern ones and an 8-team semi pro second tier rather than the mess we have.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 09:52

I think that just shows that great coaches are not very switched on about the finances of the game.

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