Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Future powers from Tier 3

Poll

Algeria
9
26%
Zimbabwe
8
23%
Poland
5
14%
Colombia
8
23%
Other (name below)
5
14%
 
Total votes : 35
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 14:01

Tobar wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:The thing about the current tier system is that the lines have been well and truly blurred over the last few years. Before it was pretty easy to divide the tiers, but now that the likes of Japan, Fiji and the US are able to not only complete but to genuinely cause an upset means we've basically got nations who fall in between the each level. The breakdown at present to me looks like this:

Tier 1 - Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations teams
Tier 1.5 - Fiji, Japan, Tonga, Georgia, Romania and maybe the USA now
Tier 2 - Samoa, Canada, Uruguay, Namibia
Tier 2.5 - Spain, Russia, maybe Brazil and possibly even Hong Kong

With the T3 nations it starts to become a bit of a coin toss about who is in the best position to be elevated to the next level. If I was to hazard a guess based off the current information it would probably be Chile by virtue of the professional league that's being created in South America as well as their involvement in the Americas Rugby Championship. More professionalism is going to be the key for many of these nations. If the Spanish League evolves to become fully professional it's obviously going to help Spain and possibly Portugal, and if the new Russian/Eastern Europe league gets off the ground it could help development all around Europe depending on where teams are located. The possibility of Belgium and Netherlands teaming up to form something pro as well would be obviously beneficial also. I would say nations in Europe would be in the best place to evolve should any of these professional leagues develop.

Africa is an interesting one though. Namibia have clearly benefited from having a team in the South African domestic competition, so perhaps this is something Zimbabwe, Kenya and Uganda should consider also, granted the SARU allow it. I don't know what the likelihood of a professional league getting established in Africa is, but if there's a way to get teams into the South African environment it's going to help enormously. North Africa I'm sure what's possible up there currently. Distance would be a huge issue for Morocco and Tunisia if they wanted to send teams.


We always refer to teams in tiers but I’m pretty sure World rugby / IRB scrapped the tier system years ago. Regardless it’s still helpful for us. I think you’re assessment is pretty accurate - Tier 1 are the obvious ones and I consider Tier 2 basically any country that is a somewhat regular at the RWC, maybe qualifying for at least 2/3. Uruguay is a good example, they’ve qualified for 1999, 2007, 2015 and now 2019 so they will only have been to 2 consecutive RWCs once. I think they’re a good cutoff for Tier 2 (despite being ranked higher than Canada).


The tier system has been scrapped, but there's a few different classifications now, which are functionally the same.

There's the 'high performance classifications' (https://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws ... hi-res.pdf), which call the 6N & TRC unions 'Tier 1', Canada, USA, Uruguay, Namibia, Romania, Georgia, Japan, Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa as 'Tier 2', and Brazil, Portugal, Spain, Germany, and Russia as 'Emerging Unions'. It says that it picks T2s as the 20 unions who participated in RWC 2015, and EUs as 'unions selected for their potential to qualify for repechage tournaments and hence RWC 2019 and RWC 2023'. However that programme is purely to make sure that the RWC is competitive.

When the tiers were 'officially' abolished they created (https://www.worldrugby.org/development/ ... investment) High Performance T1, High Performance T2, Performance 1, P2, Development 1, D2, D3.

As of 2015: High Performance Unions (20), Performance Unions (11) Development Unions (69). In terms of development funding it's £125,000/union avg for HP, £100,000/union avg for PU, £62,000/union avg for Dev (incl. regional association funding). For high performance funding HPT1 gets an average of £150,000 (Italy more, England less I suspect), while each HPT2 union gets £460,000 on average each year, with the Emerging Unions down at £150,000 each.

Unfortunately all WR classifications are rather rigid. Unions like Japan, Georgia are miles ahead of Canada and Samoa. It's got to the point where there's not much argument at all to lock Japan out of the HPT1, considering that they win T1 scalps regularly, haver a team in an elite competition, and can host major tournaments.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby jservuk » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 16:45

Blurandski wrote:
Tobar wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:
As of 2015: High Performance Unions (20), Performance Unions (11) Development Unions (69). In terms of development funding it's £125,000/union avg for HP, £100,000/union avg for PU, £62,000/union avg for Dev (incl. regional association funding). For high performance funding HPT1 gets an average of £150,000 (Italy more, England less I suspect), while each HPT2 union gets £460,000 on average each year, with the Emerging Unions down at £150,000 each.



I would argue that PUs should get the higher funding, and HPUs the lowest, since the lower ones actually need development.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 16:46

thatrugbyguy wrote:The thing about the current tier system is that the lines have been well and truly blurred over the last few years. Before it was pretty easy to divide the tiers, but now that the likes of Japan, Fiji and the US are able to not only complete but to genuinely cause an upset means we've basically got nations who fall in between the each level. The breakdown at present to me looks like this:

Tier 1 - Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations teams
Tier 1.5 - Fiji, Japan, Tonga, Georgia, Romania and maybe the USA now
Tier 2 - Samoa, Canada, Uruguay, Namibia
Tier 2.5 - Spain, Russia, maybe Brazil and possibly even Hong Kong

With the T3 nations it starts to become a bit of a coin toss about who is in the best position to be elevated to the next level. If I was to hazard a guess based off the current information it would probably be Chile by virtue of the professional league that's being created in South America as well as their involvement in the Americas Rugby Championship. More professionalism is going to be the key for many of these nations. If the Spanish League evolves to become fully professional it's obviously going to help Spain and possibly Portugal, and if the new Russian/Eastern Europe league gets off the ground it could help development all around Europe depending on where teams are located. The possibility of Belgium and Netherlands teaming up to form something pro as well would be obviously beneficial also. I would say nations in Europe would be in the best place to evolve should any of these professional leagues develop.

Africa is an interesting one though. Namibia have clearly benefited from having a team in the South African domestic competition, so perhaps this is something Zimbabwe, Kenya and Uganda should consider also, granted the SARU allow it. I don't know what the likelihood of a professional league getting established in Africa is, but if there's a way to get teams into the South African environment it's going to help enormously. North Africa I'm sure what's possible up there currently. Distance would be a huge issue for Morocco and Tunisia if they wanted to send teams.


Don't agree, keep it simple

Tier 1 - Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations teams Georgia
Tier 2 - Fiji, Japan, Tonga, Italy , Romania, Samoa, USA, Uruguay
Tier 3 - Canada,, Namibia,Spain, Russia,Brazil, Hong Kong,Columbia, germany Belguim

Tier 1= teams 1-10
Tier 2= teams 11-20
Tier 3= teams 21-30
Tier 4 Those teams don't play enough to rank

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 17:37

Creating tiers by rankings is suspect - rankings constantly fluctuate and don’t reflect the country’s participation rate or history. Neither does the RWC method but at least you have to actually qualify. If this is the case then Canada is Tier 3 which is definitely not true just because they’ve had a few bad years.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 18:00

snapper37 wrote:Don't agree, keep it simple

Tier 1 - Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations teams Georgia
Tier 2 - Fiji, Japan, Tonga, Italy , Romania, Samoa, USA, Uruguay
Tier 3 - Canada,, Namibia,Spain, Russia,Brazil, Hong Kong,Columbia, germany Belguim

Tier 1= teams 1-10
Tier 2= teams 11-20
Tier 3= teams 21-30
Tier 4 Those teams don't play enough to rank


Japan is more of a T1 nation than Georgia. It has a much richer league, a team in an elite club competition, and has a stronger recent history v T1/top T2s.

It'd be nice to move away from numerically restricted tiers, and instead into a system where as you meet x milestones you move up tiers.

E.g. my rankings would be:

T1: A minimum of 40 tests over the past four years (including RWC games), average home attendance above 25,000 over past four years, a 'domestic' team in an elite competition*

T1.5: A minimum of 40 tests over the past four years (including RWC games), average home attendance above 10,000, has domestic teams in a semi-pro competition

T2.: A minimum of 30 tests over the past four years (including RWC games), average home attendance above 5,000, has a domestic competition spanning the country (size allowances granted, so US/ Chile/ Canada could have regional competitions with a finals series)

T2.5 A minimum of 20 tests over the past four years (including RWC games), average home attendance above 2,500, has a domestic competition spanning the country (same allowances as above)

T3: The rest.

*elite competition: a competition where average crowds are 7,500+ over past 4 years, all teams are entirely fully-pro, avg starter salaries above £50k PPP. PIs would also float around, and be placed in the most appropriate tier for their team level.


Then as rugby develops you could move criteria about, perhaps pop some more tiers in below. Maybe say that once you meet the criteria for the tier above for a year you move up. If you fail to meet the criteria you have four years to fix it before being relegated to the appropriate tier. Also you'd have to beat at least two opponents from the tier above, within four years before moving up.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 19:20

I would add in criteria for number of registered players - I don’t know what number would be appropriate but level of participation is an important number to gauge health of the sport in a country. It could be either a flat number or a percentage for some of those smaller countries like Wales.

I’m also not even sure if the US has averaged 5000 fans per test. There are plenty with more than 5000 but quite a few that look like they have about 1000.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 14:45

I would add in criteria for number of registered players


Number of registered players is always an invention from each Union. I think this would only work if World Rugby had a global system of registering players - the same one I suggested that would solve most eligibility problems. It is time for World Rugby to expand the World Rugby Passport to include a matches administration system for all Unions to use. This would mean the number of players would be the players playing at least one tournament sanctioned buy the national union or any regional union.
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 14:57

The development of a Tiers system would only be really meaningful if it were directly related to seats in WR Council.

For me a Tier system should be composed by the results of Men's XVs, Men's Sevens, Men's U20s, Women's XVs, Women's Sevens (an equation that articulates them) + management situation of the Union (level of professionalism inside the Union and its high performance system, its transparency and compliance policies, power rotation...). I would never attach number of players or number of professional clubs because it would be unfair with small nations.
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 17:51

When you say “tournament sanxctioned by the National Union” are you referring to an actual tournament (like a sevens tournament) or a competition that local clubs play in?

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Sick » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:01

snapper37 wrote:Don't agree, keep it simple
Tier 1 - Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations teams Georgia
Tier 2 - Fiji, Japan, Tonga, Italy , Romania, Samoa, USA, Uruguay
Tier 3 - Canada,, Namibia,Spain, Russia,Brazil, Hong Kong,Columbia, germany Belguim

Tier 1= teams 1-10
Tier 2= teams 11-20
Tier 3= teams 21-30
Tier 4 Those teams don't play enough to rank


Japan and Fiji below Georgia...wow... funny. Real knowledge and thought went into that...

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Osmanperalta » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:39

and italy too, come on it's not the best team in the tier one but it's definitely one of them

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Osmanperalta » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:52

victorsra wrote:I agree with you that Colombia has everything to go up, but I always think that rugby in Paraguay could follow Uruguay's steps and definitly become Paraguay's second sport. It is possible to widespread rugby there. Like Uruguay, Paraguayan rugby in centred in one city - Asunción - and rugby's links to the upper classes could help finding money, which is Paraguayan rugby's main problem. Paraguay is poorer than Uruguay. However, if rumours are right and Paraguay do find a way to make a South American League franchise viable their perspectives change for good. Paraguay is NOT dead.


Paraguay has high hopes of being reborn as a force in the region if the Liga Americana de Rugby becomes a reality even more if as you mention rugby becomes the second sport in the country taking into account that even in football paraguayans have this reputation to be quite tough players

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:56

When you say “tournament sanxctioned by the National Union” are you referring to an actual tournament (like a sevens tournament) or a competition that local clubs play in?


Any competition, 15s, 10s or 7s, youth or senior, men's or women's, that is directly organized by the National Union or by any regional union or league that is formaly recognized by the National Union.

If World Rugby offers an universal system to create the match sheets it is up to the body the organizes such tournaments to register clubs and players there and once they are approved the match sheet is created. Many unions already use such online tools to reigster players and generate match sheets. Very easy to do. What WR needs to do is to create one single model that each National Union can adapt to its own reality (translate to local language, ad types of documents required for a player, etc) and give its own regional unions/leagues access to manage there their tournaments.

I was shocked when I discovered that the RFU has a really crap system of register players that isn't even online. We have in Brazil a online system provided by the Brazilian Rugby Union to the state unions that is not better because there isn't a cent being invested in maintenance, but it works and could work in a much better and efficient way. WR would save everybody's money doing such work.
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 21:41

In the US we have to CIPP in order to play (it’s basically a shit insurance deal that no one uses but we have to pay for). Its easy to CIPP and registration is done online so I’m pretty sure that’s where we get our numbers from.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Sick » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 22:35

Osmanperalta wrote:and italy too, come on it's not the best team in the tier one but it's definitely one of them



Yes and Italy, 100%. I mean they can score against Japan and beat them as well.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Immenso » Tue, 03 Jul 2018, 21:40

Why isn't rugby played in Algeria, why was "rugby non-existent in Algeria up until 2007"?

Of all the maghreb countries Algeria has the biggest connection with France. Why has rugby had a reasonable presence on either side of it's borders in it's two neighbouring maghreb countries of Tunsia and Morocco. But nothing in Algeria?

I find that really strange.

I don't really know my Algerian/French history, but ....

Is it to do with the pied-noir French settlers? Was there a rugby presence with the pied-noir and it left when they left? Or was rugby seen as a 'foreign' game by Arab Algerians? Or if there was a rugby scene, did the pied-noir exclude Arab participation?

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby gambass » Tue, 03 Jul 2018, 23:51

Immenso wrote:Is it to do with the pied-noir French settlers? Was there a rugby presence with the pied-noir and it left when they left? Or was rugby seen as a 'foreign' game by Arab Algerians? Or if there was a rugby scene, did the pied-noir exclude Arab participation?


Rugby was a very marginal sport in French Algeria. If anything, the almost complete lack of grass stadiums didn't help. For what it was, rugby was indeed an almost exclusively pied noir thing though. Not that there was any official exclusion policy, it was just the way it was (same with volleyball for some reason). Football was king within all communities and very, very popular (much more so than in mainland France actually)

Algerians didn't care about rugby 1962, they didn't start after that. Besides, football was seen as such a key element in the struggle for independency that it may have left no room for other sports to thrive (modern day Algeria doesn't look to me as à particularly omnisports country).

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 02:28

Yes, but the main question is: why rugby found its way among Moroccan and Tunisian muslims (even knowing it is probably a middle class/elite thing, but it does have its space), while in Algeria it did not happen?

Has the Civil War damaged everything related to rugby in Algeria? Was rugby in Algeria more or less in the same situation of Morocco's and Tunisia's rugby? Or even before the brutal Civil War rugby was much smaller in Algeria?

All the three - Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria - have team handball fairly strong. All of them played he World Championships and (except Morocco) the Olympics several times. It is not only football.
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby jservuk » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 09:09

victorsra wrote:Yes, but the main question is: why rugby found its way among Moroccan and Tunisian muslims (even knowing it is probably a middle class/elite thing, but it does have its space), while in Algeria it did not happen?

Has the Civil War damaged everything related to rugby in Algeria? Was rugby in Algeria more or less in the same situation of Morocco's and Tunisia's rugby? Or even before the brutal Civil War rugby was much smaller in Algeria?

All the three - Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria - have team handball fairly strong. All of them played he World Championships and (except Morocco) the Olympics several times. It is not only football.


My impression, having followed Arab/Muslim affairs (you can't avoid it, being Muslim), is that in countries like Algeria and Tunisia the ruling elite are tarred with the brush of colluding with the French Colonists. The elite class lives mirror the lives of the Upper French middle classes more than the life of the average person. A prime example of this is when the president of Tunisia Habib Bourguiba openly broke the etiquette in Muslim communities of eating/drinking openly whilst other fasted. This is something that we are taught as children - to try not to eat or drink outside in the street lest a fasting person sees you and it makes it harder for them. This is about as basic in manners as it gets, yet Habib Bourguiba did this on TV as a deliberate act to make it known where he stood. When he died, they could not find an imam who would agree to lead his funeral prayer. This is a small example of the schism between the elite in ex-colonies and the normal people.

So, if rugby is a favoured pass time of the elite in these countries, it is no surprise there will be resistance to it.

The other side is that football has played a role in independence movements that cements its place in the culture - even if only as a place in the stadium where they could sing songs of independence. For some reason football has this status in lots of countries ... even in South Africa with the Robbin Island prisoners forming a football league.

It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby gambass » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 09:33

According to wikipedia, rugby was reset in Tunisia in the early 70's thanks to the help of FFR. So there is that.

Regarding Moroco, the departure of Europeans beeing a lot less violent and diluated in time than in Algeria, it might have helped the continuation of rugby in the country

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby 4N » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 12:22

Most of this discussion is completely irrelevant to actual Algerians in France. You know, like the majority of these guys:

1. Hamza Kaabeche (Lyon, Top 14)
2. Issam Hamel (Racing 92, Top 14)
3. Rabah Slimani (Clermont, Top 14)
4. Swan Rebbadj (Toulon, Top 14)
5. Johan Aliouat (Biarritz, Pro D2)
6. Frédéric Medves (Blagnac, Fédérale 1)
7. Saïd Hireche (Brive, Pro D2)
8. Jonathan Best (Béziers, Pro D2)
9. Sadek Deghmache (Perpignan, Top 14)
10. Johan Bensalla (Valence d'Agen, Fédérale 1)
11. Julien Caminati (Castres, Top 14)
12. François Herry (Nevers, Pro D2)
13. Maxime Mermoz (Toulouse, Top 14)
14. Sofiane Guitoune (Toulouse, Top 14)
15. Kylan Hamdaoui (Stade Français, Top 14)

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 14:20

Regarding Moroco, the departure of Europeans beeing a lot less violent and diluated in time than in Algeria, it might have helped the continuation of rugby in the country


Yes, that is an interesting idea. Makes sense.

My impression, having followed Arab/Muslim affairs (you can't avoid it, being Muslim), is that in countries like Algeria and Tunisia the ruling elite are tarred with the brush of colluding with the French Colonists


But Morocco was different?
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 21:31

It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by a British person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the Brits who play here.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 08:27

Tobar wrote:
It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by a British person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the Brits who play here.


Has a lot to do with the game being tightly linked to the private school system in places like the UK and Ireland. Same here. But that's not my experience. I started playing in a more working class club and we had a whole range of people in the club.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Figaro » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 11:17

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Tobar wrote:
It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by an English person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the English who play here.


Has a lot to do with the game being tightly linked to the private school system in places like the England, Scotland and Ireland. Same here. But that's not my experience. I started playing in a more working class club and we had a whole range of people in the club.


Fixed.

In Wales, Rugby has always been a working class sport, and is strongly associated with the Valleys which are pretty much the poorest part of Western Europe. In the earliest internationals it was claimed that the Welsh had an "unfair" advantage - as most of their players were coal miners they were physically a lot stronger and tougher than the English public school* types they were playing against.

(*in the UK this term means the opposite of what it means in the US)

Over in England the class divide in Rugby was pretty much synonymous with the division of the Rugby codes. The (much wealthier) southern clubs wanted the game to remain amateur whilst the northern ones wanted to go professional to pay their (working class) players. The result even twenty years later is that Union is largely absent from the North of England (Newcastle and Sale are only relatively recently big players) and vice versa for League in the south of England.

Why Wales followed the South of England instead of the north (to which it was and is far more similar demographically speaking) isn't clear.

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