Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Future powers from Tier 3

Poll

Algeria
11
28%
Zimbabwe
9
23%
Poland
5
13%
Colombia
9
23%
Other (name below)
5
13%
 
Total votes : 39
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 14:57

The development of a Tiers system would only be really meaningful if it were directly related to seats in WR Council.

For me a Tier system should be composed by the results of Men's XVs, Men's Sevens, Men's U20s, Women's XVs, Women's Sevens (an equation that articulates them) + management situation of the Union (level of professionalism inside the Union and its high performance system, its transparency and compliance policies, power rotation...). I would never attach number of players or number of professional clubs because it would be unfair with small nations.
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 17:51

When you say “tournament sanxctioned by the National Union” are you referring to an actual tournament (like a sevens tournament) or a competition that local clubs play in?

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Sick » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:01

snapper37 wrote:Don't agree, keep it simple
Tier 1 - Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations teams Georgia
Tier 2 - Fiji, Japan, Tonga, Italy , Romania, Samoa, USA, Uruguay
Tier 3 - Canada,, Namibia,Spain, Russia,Brazil, Hong Kong,Columbia, germany Belguim

Tier 1= teams 1-10
Tier 2= teams 11-20
Tier 3= teams 21-30
Tier 4 Those teams don't play enough to rank


Japan and Fiji below Georgia...wow... funny. Real knowledge and thought went into that...

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Osmanperalta » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:39

and italy too, come on it's not the best team in the tier one but it's definitely one of them

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Osmanperalta » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:52

victorsra wrote:I agree with you that Colombia has everything to go up, but I always think that rugby in Paraguay could follow Uruguay's steps and definitly become Paraguay's second sport. It is possible to widespread rugby there. Like Uruguay, Paraguayan rugby in centred in one city - Asunción - and rugby's links to the upper classes could help finding money, which is Paraguayan rugby's main problem. Paraguay is poorer than Uruguay. However, if rumours are right and Paraguay do find a way to make a South American League franchise viable their perspectives change for good. Paraguay is NOT dead.


Paraguay has high hopes of being reborn as a force in the region if the Liga Americana de Rugby becomes a reality even more if as you mention rugby becomes the second sport in the country taking into account that even in football paraguayans have this reputation to be quite tough players

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 20:56

When you say “tournament sanxctioned by the National Union” are you referring to an actual tournament (like a sevens tournament) or a competition that local clubs play in?


Any competition, 15s, 10s or 7s, youth or senior, men's or women's, that is directly organized by the National Union or by any regional union or league that is formaly recognized by the National Union.

If World Rugby offers an universal system to create the match sheets it is up to the body the organizes such tournaments to register clubs and players there and once they are approved the match sheet is created. Many unions already use such online tools to reigster players and generate match sheets. Very easy to do. What WR needs to do is to create one single model that each National Union can adapt to its own reality (translate to local language, ad types of documents required for a player, etc) and give its own regional unions/leagues access to manage there their tournaments.

I was shocked when I discovered that the RFU has a really crap system of register players that isn't even online. We have in Brazil a online system provided by the Brazilian Rugby Union to the state unions that is not better because there isn't a cent being invested in maintenance, but it works and could work in a much better and efficient way. WR would save everybody's money doing such work.
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 21:41

In the US we have to CIPP in order to play (it’s basically a shit insurance deal that no one uses but we have to pay for). Its easy to CIPP and registration is done online so I’m pretty sure that’s where we get our numbers from.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Sick » Fri, 29 Jun 2018, 22:35

Osmanperalta wrote:and italy too, come on it's not the best team in the tier one but it's definitely one of them



Yes and Italy, 100%. I mean they can score against Japan and beat them as well.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Immenso » Tue, 03 Jul 2018, 21:40

Why isn't rugby played in Algeria, why was "rugby non-existent in Algeria up until 2007"?

Of all the maghreb countries Algeria has the biggest connection with France. Why has rugby had a reasonable presence on either side of it's borders in it's two neighbouring maghreb countries of Tunsia and Morocco. But nothing in Algeria?

I find that really strange.

I don't really know my Algerian/French history, but ....

Is it to do with the pied-noir French settlers? Was there a rugby presence with the pied-noir and it left when they left? Or was rugby seen as a 'foreign' game by Arab Algerians? Or if there was a rugby scene, did the pied-noir exclude Arab participation?

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby gambass » Tue, 03 Jul 2018, 23:51

Immenso wrote:Is it to do with the pied-noir French settlers? Was there a rugby presence with the pied-noir and it left when they left? Or was rugby seen as a 'foreign' game by Arab Algerians? Or if there was a rugby scene, did the pied-noir exclude Arab participation?


Rugby was a very marginal sport in French Algeria. If anything, the almost complete lack of grass stadiums didn't help. For what it was, rugby was indeed an almost exclusively pied noir thing though. Not that there was any official exclusion policy, it was just the way it was (same with volleyball for some reason). Football was king within all communities and very, very popular (much more so than in mainland France actually)

Algerians didn't care about rugby 1962, they didn't start after that. Besides, football was seen as such a key element in the struggle for independency that it may have left no room for other sports to thrive (modern day Algeria doesn't look to me as à particularly omnisports country).

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 02:28

Yes, but the main question is: why rugby found its way among Moroccan and Tunisian muslims (even knowing it is probably a middle class/elite thing, but it does have its space), while in Algeria it did not happen?

Has the Civil War damaged everything related to rugby in Algeria? Was rugby in Algeria more or less in the same situation of Morocco's and Tunisia's rugby? Or even before the brutal Civil War rugby was much smaller in Algeria?

All the three - Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria - have team handball fairly strong. All of them played he World Championships and (except Morocco) the Olympics several times. It is not only football.
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby jservuk » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 09:09

victorsra wrote:Yes, but the main question is: why rugby found its way among Moroccan and Tunisian muslims (even knowing it is probably a middle class/elite thing, but it does have its space), while in Algeria it did not happen?

Has the Civil War damaged everything related to rugby in Algeria? Was rugby in Algeria more or less in the same situation of Morocco's and Tunisia's rugby? Or even before the brutal Civil War rugby was much smaller in Algeria?

All the three - Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria - have team handball fairly strong. All of them played he World Championships and (except Morocco) the Olympics several times. It is not only football.


My impression, having followed Arab/Muslim affairs (you can't avoid it, being Muslim), is that in countries like Algeria and Tunisia the ruling elite are tarred with the brush of colluding with the French Colonists. The elite class lives mirror the lives of the Upper French middle classes more than the life of the average person. A prime example of this is when the president of Tunisia Habib Bourguiba openly broke the etiquette in Muslim communities of eating/drinking openly whilst other fasted. This is something that we are taught as children - to try not to eat or drink outside in the street lest a fasting person sees you and it makes it harder for them. This is about as basic in manners as it gets, yet Habib Bourguiba did this on TV as a deliberate act to make it known where he stood. When he died, they could not find an imam who would agree to lead his funeral prayer. This is a small example of the schism between the elite in ex-colonies and the normal people.

So, if rugby is a favoured pass time of the elite in these countries, it is no surprise there will be resistance to it.

The other side is that football has played a role in independence movements that cements its place in the culture - even if only as a place in the stadium where they could sing songs of independence. For some reason football has this status in lots of countries ... even in South Africa with the Robbin Island prisoners forming a football league.

It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby gambass » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 09:33

According to wikipedia, rugby was reset in Tunisia in the early 70's thanks to the help of FFR. So there is that.

Regarding Moroco, the departure of Europeans beeing a lot less violent and diluated in time than in Algeria, it might have helped the continuation of rugby in the country

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby 4N » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 12:22

Most of this discussion is completely irrelevant to actual Algerians in France. You know, like the majority of these guys:

1. Hamza Kaabeche (Lyon, Top 14)
2. Issam Hamel (Racing 92, Top 14)
3. Rabah Slimani (Clermont, Top 14)
4. Swan Rebbadj (Toulon, Top 14)
5. Johan Aliouat (Biarritz, Pro D2)
6. Frédéric Medves (Blagnac, Fédérale 1)
7. Saïd Hireche (Brive, Pro D2)
8. Jonathan Best (Béziers, Pro D2)
9. Sadek Deghmache (Perpignan, Top 14)
10. Johan Bensalla (Valence d'Agen, Fédérale 1)
11. Julien Caminati (Castres, Top 14)
12. François Herry (Nevers, Pro D2)
13. Maxime Mermoz (Toulouse, Top 14)
14. Sofiane Guitoune (Toulouse, Top 14)
15. Kylan Hamdaoui (Stade Français, Top 14)

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 14:20

Regarding Moroco, the departure of Europeans beeing a lot less violent and diluated in time than in Algeria, it might have helped the continuation of rugby in the country


Yes, that is an interesting idea. Makes sense.

My impression, having followed Arab/Muslim affairs (you can't avoid it, being Muslim), is that in countries like Algeria and Tunisia the ruling elite are tarred with the brush of colluding with the French Colonists


But Morocco was different?
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 21:31

It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by a British person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the Brits who play here.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 08:27

Tobar wrote:
It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by a British person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the Brits who play here.


Has a lot to do with the game being tightly linked to the private school system in places like the UK and Ireland. Same here. But that's not my experience. I started playing in a more working class club and we had a whole range of people in the club.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Figaro » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 11:17

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Tobar wrote:
It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by an English person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the English who play here.


Has a lot to do with the game being tightly linked to the private school system in places like the England, Scotland and Ireland. Same here. But that's not my experience. I started playing in a more working class club and we had a whole range of people in the club.


Fixed.

In Wales, Rugby has always been a working class sport, and is strongly associated with the Valleys which are pretty much the poorest part of Western Europe. In the earliest internationals it was claimed that the Welsh had an "unfair" advantage - as most of their players were coal miners they were physically a lot stronger and tougher than the English public school* types they were playing against.

(*in the UK this term means the opposite of what it means in the US)

Over in England the class divide in Rugby was pretty much synonymous with the division of the Rugby codes. The (much wealthier) southern clubs wanted the game to remain amateur whilst the northern ones wanted to go professional to pay their (working class) players. The result even twenty years later is that Union is largely absent from the North of England (Newcastle and Sale are only relatively recently big players) and vice versa for League in the south of England.

Why Wales followed the South of England instead of the north (to which it was and is far more similar demographically speaking) isn't clear.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby iul » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 12:24

Figaro wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Tobar wrote:
It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by an English person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the English who play here.


Has a lot to do with the game being tightly linked to the private school system in places like the England, Scotland and Ireland. Same here. But that's not my experience. I started playing in a more working class club and we had a whole range of people in the club.


Fixed.

In Wales, Rugby has always been a working class sport, and is strongly associated with the Valleys which are pretty much the poorest part of Western Europe. In the earliest internationals it was claimed that the Welsh had an "unfair" advantage - as most of their players were coal miners they were physically a lot stronger and tougher than the English public school* types they were playing against.

(*in the UK this term means the opposite of what it means in the US)

Over in England the class divide in Rugby was pretty much synonymous with the division of the Rugby codes. The (much wealthier) southern clubs wanted the game to remain amateur whilst the northern ones wanted to go professional to pay their (working class) players. The result even twenty years later is that Union is largely absent from the North of England (Newcastle and Sale are only relatively recently big players) and vice versa for League in the south of England.

Why Wales followed the South of England instead of the north (to which it was and is far more similar demographically speaking) isn't clear.

They did have a pro mungoball league in Wales pre WW1 but the northern mungoes wouldn't play them and the league collapsed. :thumbup:

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 12:33

It always struck me as odd that rugby never took off in India given the British controlled it for so long. Cricket and rugby mange to develop in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, and even Kenya and Canada, all nations that had British presence at one stage in their history, yet in India, which was such a prized colony for Britain, rugby somehow didn't take off whilst cricket did.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Tobar » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 12:56

I’ve wondered the same. I understand that rugby has always been a more upper class sport but isn’t cricket also more upper in England too? I may be completely wrong about that though.

You’d think that with 1B+ people that it would at least run off on enough people to make them higher Tier 3 but nope.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 13:42

Both were at the time considered upper class sports in Britain and the Commonwealth. But yeah, India never taking to rugby whilst just about every other major British colony did is one of real mysteries of sports history. If they had developed alongside the other colonies there’s no doubt in my mind India would have been a tier one nation also, maybe even Pakistan as well. Very odd that it didn’t happen.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 14:19

Figaro wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Tobar wrote:
It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by an English person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the English who play here.


Has a lot to do with the game being tightly linked to the private school system in places like the England, Scotland and Ireland. Same here. But that's not my experience. I started playing in a more working class club and we had a whole range of people in the club.


Fixed.

In Wales, Rugby has always been a working class sport, and is strongly associated with the Valleys which are pretty much the poorest part of Western Europe. In the earliest internationals it was claimed that the Welsh had an "unfair" advantage - as most of their players were coal miners they were physically a lot stronger and tougher than the English public school* types they were playing against.

(*in the UK this term means the opposite of what it means in the US)

Over in England the class divide in Rugby was pretty much synonymous with the division of the Rugby codes. The (much wealthier) southern clubs wanted the game to remain amateur whilst the northern ones wanted to go professional to pay their (working class) players. The result even twenty years later is that Union is largely absent from the North of England (Newcastle and Sale are only relatively recently big players) and vice versa for League in the south of England.

Why Wales followed the South of England instead of the north (to which it was and is far more similar demographically speaking) isn't clear.



As I understand it sort of, but not quite.

Some of the northern clubs were quite wealthy because they could draw a crowd, especially "town clubs" like Leeds as opposed to neighbourhood sides, this obviously lead to inducements for players to join them, even if such inducements were only the chance to play in front of bigger crowds, or move to a better career like becoming a publican rather than a miner. This annoyed the smaller northern clubs who lost their players and their matches. They then cracked down on inducements and used their greater number to win votes in the Yorkshire and Lanacashire unions to stop them running cups and league competitions to try and kill off the crowds (i.e. they realised payments would only stop if the money went away).

Leeds, Hull et al were all run by ex-public school boys like Cardiff, Newport, Coventry or Leicester were. And as with all those clubs the playing base was fairly broad on all sides too.

Then the London clubs were fairly strict amateurs as they were in football and were strongly against paying players for anything at all. Outside London there was not actually much rugby in the rest of the south east and what there was was very public school orientated.

The north was the only place with strong competitions principally because the north is much more densely populated than the midlands or Wales, so there were a large enough number of teams to run a league in a reasonable area, but also because they started a bit earlier so what nascent competitions there were elsewhere hadn't developed to the same extent yet.

The northern clubs broke away to run their own competitions and also openly pay their players. The RFU realised they shit the bed by being too hard on them, so rowed back on some of their ideas to keep Wales & the midlands in the fold. The professional maximum wage was actually fairly similar to the maximum expenses allowed in English rugby union and there were controls on "fake" jobs in the northern union that there weren't in the rest of the country (c.f. the number of pubs ran by players on behalf of club committee men, or in companies ran by club committee men in both unions).

Even with that there was almost another breakaway in 1908 involving the midlands, south west and Wales. Coventry even went over to league for a season and then came back to union. I think Ebbw Vale did the same thing?

This held until the war and then after that the crowds weren't the same, the committee men not as up for a scrap and the RFU's hardline against those that left was compared to their pretty flexible approach to those that had stayed in the tent and pissed out. So it all sort of went away.

The league split was rugby's worst, and those that forced them out knew it and stopped short of forcing the issue again.

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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 18:16

Tobar wrote:
It's a pity that in some places rugby has this negative association with elitism. Even in England, you will find people who don't like it because of this.


Yup, it's a shame. When I was first told by a British person that rugby was an upper class sport I was surprised. My experience as an American (at least where I was from) was that most of the guys were more working class guys. I grew up in NYC suburbs in NJ and my first club was all New Jerseyans who did not commute - this basically gave off the impression of more working class suburban folk. They were also the kind of guys who liked to run around and hit people which helped give off this vibe a bit. Now I live and play in NYC and the upper class style is shoved in your face from all the Brits who play here.


Aren't clubs like NYAC and Old Blue in NY or Olympic in SF upper class clubs?
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Re: Future powers from Tier 3

Postby Thomas » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 19:44

I checked through the records and there was a breakaway Welsh League in 1908 and 1909 Ebbw Vale was the top team.

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