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Youth Internationals

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby carbonero » Sat, 09 Jul 2016, 16:52

Around that time of the year there is an U18 tournament in Córdoba that usually features Pumitas, Italy and Uruguay.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 Jul 2016, 17:11

It might be the same, but now with Brazil. Any news?
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby carbonero » Wed, 03 Aug 2016, 18:16

victorsra wrote:It might be the same, but now with Brazil. Any news?


Argentina (2 teams), Brazil, Uruguay, Chile and Córdoba. No Italy this time.

http://www.cordobaxv.com.ar/torneo-las-naciones-2016/

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby carbonero » Mon, 15 Aug 2016, 02:14

U19 Torneo de las Naciones started in Córdoba:

Córdoba Blanco 47-3 Brasil
Argentina 1 82-7 Córdoba Rojo
Argentina 2 104-3 Chile

Uruguay didn't come so Córdoba fielded two sides.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Sables4EVA » Mon, 15 Aug 2016, 13:34

This is a link to the report on the international u19 series being played this year. I consists of the SA Schools side, SA 'A' Schools side, Italy, France, Wales and England.

http://www.sarugby.co.za/article.aspx?c ... id=3655214

Next fixtures are on tuesday:
SA vs France
SA 'A' vs England
Wales vs Italy

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby carbonero » Thu, 18 Aug 2016, 00:51

U19 Torneo de las Naciones – Second round:

Chile 42 - 21 Córdoba Rojo
Argentina 2 106 -17 Córdoba Blanco
Argentina 1 102 – 0 Brasil

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Sun, 21 Aug 2016, 19:43

Friendly, on August 17th: Peru U18 63-00 Ecuador U18

U19 Torneo de las Naciones - 3rd (last) round, on August 20th:
Córdoba “White” 45 - 38 Córdoba “Red”

Argentina “2” 69 - 00 Brazil

Argentina “1” 113 - 05 Chile


And today started in Chiclayo, Peru, the South American Championship B (U18).

1st round
Colombia 74 - 00 Peru;
Mexico (invited) 59 - 10 Venezuela;

2nd round - August 24th
Peru - Mexico
Colombia - Venezuela
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Sun, 11 Sep 2016, 17:57

Does anybody knows the rules of players eligibility for junior national teams? AFAIK World Rugby Regulation 8 is only related to senior teams.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 11 Sep 2016, 18:15

Believe it is up to the nation.

Matt Protheroe couldn't play in U-20s RWC for England as it was played under proper nationality qualifications and he wasn't eligible but could in U20s 6Ns as they apparently let you pick who ever you like in that!

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Scorpion » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 12:04

Schedule for U20 Championship 2017 in Georgia

http://www.worldrugby.org/u20/news/193714

Host cities: Tbilisi & Kutaisi

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby GeoRugby » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 16:17

Glad for people of Kutaisi. They`ll get to see some quality rugby.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 17:59

We are still with no news about the host country of the U20 Trophy. Once more it was said during the South American U19 Championship that Uruguay will host the U20 World Trophy. Maybe WR is waiting for the Americas Pacific Challenge to confirm it. Therefore Chile would be qualified as well.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 20:02

victorsra wrote:We are still with no news about the host country of the U20 Trophy. Once more it was said during the South American U19 Championship that Uruguay will host the U20 World Trophy. Maybe WR is waiting for the Americas Pacific Challenge to confirm it. Therefore Chile would be qualified as well.


They could also decide that adding 1 from the host continent in addition to the host is rather silly and award the spot to someone else. Does it really make any sense to spend development funds on Chile just because the tournament is in South America when one of USA/Canada and one of Fiji/Tonga sit at home as a result?

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 22:40

Does it really make any sense to spend development funds on Chile just because the tournament is in South America


Yes, it makes.

It is important IMO to have one more team of the host continent in the tournament to boost the region. In fact WR should try to make a continents rotation for the Trophy. It is a development competition after all. Sometimes T2s think about T3s just like T1s think about T2s.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Natal » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 23:32

The clear solution is to restore the World Championship to 16 teams.

With only 20 teams in total at the moment (12+8), I think that this remains the fairest way of allocating places (how do you judge whether NA2 deserves the spot more than SA2, for example) insofar as it's pretty much random.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 23:48

victorsra wrote:
Does it really make any sense to spend development funds on Chile just because the tournament is in South America


Yes, it makes.

It is important IMO to have one more team of the host continent in the tournament to boost the region. In fact WR should try to make a continents rotation for the Trophy. It is a development competition after all. Sometimes T2s think about T3s just like T1s think about T2s.


It's not a T2 vs T3 thinking thing. It's a matter of World Rugby having limited funds and being smart about how it targets those funds.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 23:50

Natal wrote:The clear solution is to restore the World Championship to 16 teams.

With only 20 teams in total at the moment (12+8), I think that this remains the fairest way of allocating places (how do you judge whether NA2 deserves the spot more than SA2, for example) insofar as it's pretty much random.


I agree, but the likely issue is a lack of funds. World Rugby clearly doesn't care at all about this tournament, or at least hasn't in the past, which is why you see 22 man matchday squads instead of 23.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:00

Chile beat Japan in the 2013 Trophy and finished 3rd. It is clearly not waste of money, Chile is not a random country with no future. The smart use of the Trophy funds is to make it go to every continent in a regular basis, allowing the biggest number of teams to take part and benefit from it while keeping most of the best teams with chance (those that are the best in their regions) to go up. It is a balance.

The competition will have Japan, Fiji or Tonga, USA or Canada, and an European. To replace a T3 with potential to grow by one T2 that couldn't beat its T2 neighbour is not a smart investment IMO when we think about growing the game around the world. It is just the reproduction of the T1 logic.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:12

There is a dangerous thing that is already happening: the creation of local dynasties. Look at Namibia and Uruguay. As Africa and South America have just 1 place and these countries are already showing more developed junior programs, the fact that year after year they accumulate more and more international experience can simply make the gap to the other nations (Brazil, Chile in South America, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Tunisia in Africa) bigger. Well, Asia is another more problematic case, as if Japan fails to return to the Championship Hong Kong or Korea will really have very few chances to experience a world competition like this. The best opportunities are indeed those years when their continents host the Trophy.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:17

victorsra wrote:Chile beat Japan in the 2013 Trophy and finished 3rd. It is clearly not waste of money, Chile is not a random country with no future. The smart use of the Trophy funds is to make it go to every continent in a regular basis, allowing the biggest number of teams to take part and benefit from it while keeping most of the best teams with chance (those that are the best in their regions) to go up. It is a balance.

The competition will have Japan, Fiji or Tonga, USA or Canada, and an European. To replace a T3 with potential to grow by one T2 that couldn't beat its T2 neighbour is not a smart investment IMO when we think about growing the game around the world. It is just the reproduction of the T1 logic.


It's not a waste of money. It's an imprudent spending of money. Chile is just an example. Hong Kong is probably a better example. Their qualification for the 2018 JWRT will be entirely dependent not on their performance or even their potential as a rugby nation but rather on Japan's performance. If Japan don't win the JWRT, Hong Kong won't be at the next edition. If Japan do, Hong Kong will be there, whether they finish second or finish last. Meanwhile, Canada or USA could finish second in the tournament and miss out the following year simply because they actually have real competition to face in order to qualify, which is exactly what happened to Canada last year. It's illogical and silly.

World Rugby has a duty to ensure the development of rugby in each continent or region around the world. However, it errs by looking at the JWRT in a vacuum rather than looking at the JWC and JWRT as one competition with 2 divisions.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:25

victorsra wrote:There is a dangerous thing that is already happening: the creation of local dynasties. Look at Namibia and Uruguay. As Africa and South America have just 1 place and these countries are already showing more developed junior programs, the fact that year after year they accumulate more and more international experience can simply make the gap to the other nations (Brazil, Chile in South America, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Tunisia in Africa) bigger. Well, Asia is another more problematic case, as if Japan fails to return to the Championship Hong Kong or Korea will really have very few chances to experience a world competition like this. The best opportunities are indeed those years when their continents host the Trophy.


The creation of local dynasties isn't because of gaining experience at the JWRT. There is far too much roster turnover year to year for that to have much impact. The dynasties exist because those countries simply develop better players on a yearly basis. Surely Uruguay and Namibia win at U18 level against those same countries.

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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:35

Sorry dude, you are advocating on your own cause just because USA can lose to Canada. USA and Canada suffer from the problem that you don't have a continental competition. That is the silly thing that both unions should be looking to solve. The solution is not to make HK or Zimbabwe or Chile chances to grow even smaller.

These are the nations (the rich ones, and I include Brazil) that should help WR trying to find other ways to not depend on WR's money that is more precious and decisive in other places. If USA or Canada are out of the tournament, try to organize an international tournament with other nations that are out, or invite an English development side, an Australian state, a NZ province, whatever. For Fiji, Samoa and Tonga (the one left out of the Trophy) what WR can do is to help politicaly allowing them to play against NZs or Australians. For European teams what WR can do is to press the 6Ns to be more open and work with Rugby Europe. What is logical is to have WR making its investments more diverse and act in the political front to make rugby more open.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:36

The creation of local dynasties isn't because of gaining experience at the JWRT. There is far too much roster turnover year to year for that to have much impact. The dynasties exist because those countries simply develop better players on a yearly basis. Surely Uruguay and Namibia win at U18 level against those same countries.


It is not just this, of course. And they are hegemonic in senior rugby too. But it is a factor IMO, because there is an exchange of experiences and knowledges between the generations, as some players are kept and the coaching staff too.

Surely Uruguay and Namibia win at U18 level against those same countries.

There is no U18 South American Championship.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby victorsra » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 00:57

I am not sure who put money on that Nations Cup in Argentina on August, but I believe WR helped. Maybe in the future it could ad the loser of USA/Canada, for exemple. I remember before the competition that they were set to invite an European team. Italy played it in the previous competition. And that would be a waste of money, because the North Americans need it more.
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Re: Youth Internationals

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 01:28

victorsra wrote:Sorry dude, you are advocating on your own cause just because USA can lose to Canada. USA and Canada suffer from the problem that you don't have a continental competition. That is the silly thing that both unions should be looking to solve. The solution is not to make HK or Zimbabwe or Chile chances to grow even smaller.


These are the nations (the rich ones, and I include Brazil) that should help WR trying to find other ways to not depend on WR's money that is more precious and decisive in other places. If USA or Canada are out of the tournament, try to organize an international tournament with other nations that are out, or invite an English development side, an Australian state, a NZ province, whatever. For Fiji, Samoa and Tonga (the one left out of the Trophy) what WR can do is to help politicaly allowing them to play against NZs or Australians. For European teams what WR can do is to press the 6Ns to be more open and work with Rugby Europe. What is logical is to have WR making its investments more diverse and act in the political front to make rugby more open.[/quote]

That is not true in the slightest. I've been arguing this point for years, going back to when USA was in zero danger of missing out on the JWRT/JWC because they were in the JWC. It was ridiculous then and it's ridiculous now. If Canada and USA improve to the point that both are in the JWC, it would be equally, or perhaps even more, ridiculous to have a NACRA team in the JWRT simply on the basis of Canada and USA's improvement.

By the way, I actually favor USA pulling out of the JWRT in order to organize that exact type of tournament. The timing of the JWRT is haphazard and frequently happens during the middle of the semester for college students in the US. This year, players were looking at missing a week of school for the training camp leading up to the qualifier and then another ~3 weeks to both have a training camp and play in the tournament. Missing 4 weeks of college on top of missing a big chunk of the club/college rugby season is a huge burden and a ton of our best players choose not to do it. We sent about a half strength side to the JWRT this year and the same is true most years, with the only exception being 2012 when there was no qualifer and the tournament was held in the summer. Spending resources on a half strength side is unwise and it would be better to host a tournament at a time of year when our best players are all available.

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