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Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

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Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby polter » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 21:39

Kick-off 14:00 Local time Zlin, Czech Republic.

The RET kicks off this weekend with Poland travelling to Zlin to face the Czech Republic. For some reason this fixture between these 2 teams has given the Czechs the home advantage again rather than alternating to Poland. The match last year in Prague saw the Poland loose a relatively close game 19-14. Since then I would say that both teams had improved for the rest of the season. Poland put in better performances under their new coach and were unlucky to loose to the Swiss and Portuguese, whereas the Czechs managed a win against the Swiss and finished a solid third overall.

The Czechs have named their starting line up below:

01. Kent Anthony - Belenenses Rugby Lisbona (Portugalia)
02. Hodek Matouš - RC Tatra Smichov
03. Havlicek Martin - RC Sparta Praha
04. Trefny Robert - RC Mountfield Říčany
05. Frank Jiří - SC Leucate Corbieres Méditérranée XV (Francja)
06. Havel Vojtěch - RC Tatra Smíchov
07. Faktor James - Honourable Artillery Company RFU Londyn (Anglia)
08. Hošek Dan - RC Praga Praha
09. Schütz Zbyněk - RC Dragon Brno
10. Froněk Albert - RC Praha Praha
11. Stárka Daniel - RC Tatra Smíchov
12. Berounský Karel - RC Tatra Smíchov
13. Pantůček Jiří - RC Sparta Praha
14. Forst Tomáš - RC Praga Praha
15. Kovář Martin - RC JIMI Vyškov
16. Leitmančík Adam - RC Slavia Praha
17. Průša Michal - RC Tatra Smíchov
18. Pekař Štěpán - RC Dragon Brno
19. Olbrich Jan - RC Tatra Smíchov
20. Hutník Radim - RC Brno Bystrc
21. Hopp Matyáš - RC Praga Praha
22. Čížek Jakub - RC Přelouč
23. Ševčík František - RC Slavia Praha

It is heavily focused on Czech Republic based players and is missing I would say the best 2 players for them in the last game with Poland in the forms of the tight-head prop Sastny and number 8 Loutocky.

Poland had named a extended squad a while ago.

Budowlani Lublin
01. Robizon Kelberashvilli
02. Piotr Wiśniewski
03. Wojciech Brzezicki
04. Wojciech Król

Budowlani Łódź SA
05. Krystian Pogorzelski
06. Mateusz Adamski

Juvenia Kraków
07. Michał Jurczyński

Lechia Gdańsk
08. Grzegorz Buczek
09. Marek Płonka Jr

Ogniwo Sopot
10. Radosław Bysewski
11. Adam Piotrowski
12. Stanisław Powała-Niedźwiecki
13. Piotr Zeszutek
14. Mateusz Plichta
15. Wojciech Piotrowicz
16. Grzegorz Szczepański

Pogoń Siedlce
17. Adrian Chróściel
18. Daniel Gdula
19. Przemysław Rajewski

Skra Warszawa
20. Sebastian Kostałkowski

Orkan Sochaczew
21. Artur Fursenko

AS Macon Rugby (Francja)
22. Aleksander Nowicki

Burleigh Bears Miami (Australia)
23. Harry Siejka

CS Vienne (Francja)
24. Kamil Bobryk

CSB Beaune Rugby (Francja)
25. Andrzej Charlat

Edinburgh Accies (Szkocja)
26. Lawrie Seydak

Zawodnicy rezerwowi
01. Marcin Siemaszko - Juvenia Kraków
02. Toma Mchedlidze - Budowlani Łódź SA
04. Michał Kępa - Orkan Sochaczew
05. Robert Bosiacki - Budowlani Łódź SA
06. Tomasz Rokicki - Lechia Gdańsk

Some notable absences are the Lodz scrum half David Plichta and the Mateusz Bartoczek, a back five player based in France. There are familiar names in the backs with many of the players who represented Poland in the Grand Prix Sevens named.

A few interesting new players called up include Seydak from Edinburgh Academicals and had gone on the pre-season tour to Rovigo, but I would say most of all is Harry Siejka from Australia who has played in the NRL for various teams. If he gets capped by Poland he could become the first dual code international as he is also named in the Polish Rugby League team to play in the Emerging Nations Rugby League World Championship. This competition will be held in Sydney starting on the 1st October. The Polish team will be almost entirely made up of Australian players with Polish ancestry as will most of the teams that will compete which include Greece, Turkey, Hungary and Malta.

https://www.rlenwc.com/

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby Gorbeh » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 07:52

polter wrote:The RET kicks off this weekend with Poland travelling to Zlin to face the Czech Republic. For some reason this fixture between these 2 teams has given the Czechs the home advantage again rather than alternating to Poland.


If you have a closer look on all the schedules, you will see, that Rugby Europe will not alternate the H/A games apparantly like A-B-A-B, but in an A-B-B-A scheme over the years. Every single tier of the competition has the same H/A arrangements as last year. I don't like it either to be honest.

edit: According to http://www.sareferees.co.za/News/referees-to-30-september-2018/2831181/ Stuart Gaffikin of Ireland will officiate the match.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby polter » Fri, 28 Sep 2018, 20:39

Poland named their starting line-up:

01. Kamil Bobryk - CS Vienne, Francja
02. Adrian Chróściel - Pogoń Siedlce
03. Robizon Kelberashvilli - Budowlani Lublin
04. Adam Piotrowski - Ogniwo Sopot
05. Stanisław Powała-Niedźwiecki - Ogniwo Sopot
06. Piotr Wiśniewski - Budowlani Lublin
07. Lowrie Seydak (debiutant) - Edinburgh Accies, Szkocja
08. Piotr Zeszutek - Ogniwo Sopot
09. Mateusz Plichta - Ogniwo Sopot
10. Mateusz Adamski - Budowlani Łódź SA
11. Grzegorz Szczepański - Ogniwo Sopot
12. Daniel Gdula - Pogoń Siedlce
13. Michał Jurczyński (debiutant) - Juvenia Kraków
14. Andrzej Charlat - CSB Beaune Rugby, Francja
15. Krystian Pogorzelski - Budowlani Łódź SA

Rezerwa:
16. Michał Gadomski (debiutant) - Orkan Sochaczew
17. Radosław Bysewski - Ogniwo Sopot
18. Wojciech Król - Budowlani Lublin
19. Marek Mirosz - Pogoń Siedlce
20. Artur Fursenko (debiutant) - Orkan Sochaczew
21. Wojciech Piotrowicz - Ogniwo Sopot
22. Maciej Grabowski - Budowlani Lublin
23. Sebastian Kostałkowski - Skra Warszawa

Players to look out for will be Zeszutek at number 8 who recently returned from a trial at Harlequins in England and Szczepański and Gdula in the backs who were fixtures in the Grand Prix Sevens series. Looks like a few of the foreign born players haven't made it but Bobryk is a welcome experienced presence at prop and the Charlat will be dangerous on the wing.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby welshdragon2000 » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 12:48

24-7 to Poland at the half

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby welshdragon2000 » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 13:40

22-41 to Poland full time. Didn't expect that result but Poland looked superior in every way

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby dwpeate » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 13:43

I think it caught a lot of people out, but I think we have to remember that last years result in the same fixture was a shock itself as the Czechs had just been promoted.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby polter » Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 14:40

Under their new coach Poland have been threatening a performance like that for a while. It never quite came off against the Swiss or the Portuguese, but it did today. Both teams made mistakes with poor handling and kicking but Poland had the better game plan playing at a high tempo with lots of off-loads and pop passes.

Defense is still a worry as is discipline. The yellow-card at the end of the first half saw the Czechs score 2 tries, but Poland will take great confidence from the result as they go into their next game against the Lithuanians in November in Lodz, but the real test will be against the Dutch in Lublin a few weeks after....

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sun, 30 Sep 2018, 06:14

Rugby Europe will not alternate the H/A games apparantly like A-B-A-B, but in an A-B-B-A scheme over the years. Every single tier of the competition has the same H/A arrangements as last year. I don't like it either to be honest.

Your conclusion is NOT true

It's start of a new 2-year cycle (2019-2020) and
teams are assigned new seeding numbers according to
where they have finished in previous (last) season

I've checked top tier where GEO plays
and there everything is OK = legal and logical

Same observation should be correct for lower tiers
as RE have been following same templates for years

:::

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby Gorbeh » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 05:46

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:

It's start of a new 2-year cycle (2019-2020) and
teams are assigned new seeding numbers according to
where they have finished in previous (last) season

I've checked top tier where GEO plays
and there everything is OK = legal and logical

Same observation should be correct for lower tiers
as RE have been following same templates for years

:::


That makes even less sense on a H/A schedule, but it is RE so nevermind.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 08:05

We can chide them for a lot of things BAR schedules

They do them 100% fair -- at least at top level (which I follow avidly)

They always abide by their own, well-balanced rules

On other hand, when a comp is played over one year - Home OR Away,
the schedule could NOT be fully balanced for many reasons
(when there are even number of teams)

This is rugby's general problem and not RE's specific one

Just look at blessed 6N, Africa Gold Cup, even S15

This imbalance could be addressed over two consecutive years
and both 6N and RE do that by rotating fixtures over that period

+ RE starts new 2-year cycle in odd years (2019)
with new seedings, and it seems logical --
unlike 6N where schedule is dictated by TV bosses

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 01 Oct 2018, 10:53

Gorbeh wrote:
That makes even less sense on a H/A schedule, but it is RE so nevermind.


Actually I think it does make the most sense to run it that way. Two year cycles which start 1vs.6th 2nd vs 5th, 3rd vs. 4th.
We had this discussion one or a couple of months ago and since then I couldn't think of a more just system (if you play with promotion/relegation each year and not within a two-year cycle that is). What would you suggest?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby Gorbeh » Tue, 02 Oct 2018, 07:43

It depends where the main focus should lie on. For organisational purposes, as well as spectators a rolling H/A fixture between two nations is the best solution in my opinion. Thus, when playing Team A away this year, one is hosting the same team the next year. The promoted/relegated site would take over the spots from the previous team. Hence, each team with only 2 home games, has 3 home games the following year. On that regard, the six nations are quite fair, as H/A advantage is still a huge thing especially in T2 rugby, and due to the promotion/relegation process Germany or Norway f.e. have only 2 home fixtures in two consecutive years and are, therefore, are at a disadvantage two years in a row compared to their closest rivals. The latter has always 2/2 anyway due to the group consisting of only 5 teams, but the key match against Finland will be away again.

Concerning the strength of schedule in this regard would make the gameday appointment more difficult, yes. But this could also be handled via an easy algorithm. In the lower tiers (excluding the championship), gamedays are stretched wider anyways.

edit: For example this year's first gameday championship: Romania vs Georgia, Germany vs Belgium, Spain vs Russia; here only the GER-BEL match would be switched. The strength of schedule thereof could be derived either favouring the better seeded teams (Georgia allowed a rolling A/H/A/H/A circle, and the resulting schedule derived thereof) or the lower seeded teams (Romania allowed a rolling A/H/A/H/A circle, and the resulting schedule derived thereof).

edit2: And inside this system the e.g. best team would be used to realign the gamedays each year. If for example Spain would win this year's championship they would have had 3 home games this season, and 2 home games next season. Making them the imaginable winner of 2019, would determine the 2020 schedule based on their match scheme: First away game against the lowest ranked team of the away games, first home match against the lowest ranked team for home matches, etc. that their schedule would be again (A/H/A/H/A). The rest of the schedule can be easily inserted iteratively.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 02 Oct 2018, 08:14

Gorbeh wrote:It depends where the main focus should lie on. For organisational purposes, as well as spectators a rolling H/A fixture between two nations is the best solution in my opinion. Thus, when playing Team A away this year, one is hosting the same team the next year. The promoted/relegated site would take over the spots from the previous team. Hence, each team with only 2 home games, has 3 home games the following year. On that regard, the six nations are quite fair, as H/A advantage is still a huge thing especially in T2 rugby, and due to the promotion/relegation process Germany or Norway f.e. have only 2 home fixtures in two consecutive years and are, therefore, are at a disadvantage two years in a row compared to their closest rivals. The latter has always 2/2 anyway due to the group consisting of only 5 teams, but the key match against Finland will be away again.

Concerning the strength of schedule in this regard would make the gameday appointment more difficult, yes. But this could also be handled via an easy algorithm. In the lower tiers (excluding the championship), gamedays are stretched wider anyways.

edit: For example this year's first gameday championship: Romania vs Georgia, Germany vs Belgium, Spain vs Russia; here only the GER-BEL match would be switched. The strength of schedule thereof could be derived either favouring the better seeded teams (Georgia allowed a rolling A/H/A/H/A circle, and the resulting schedule derived thereof) or the lower seeded teams (Romania allowed a rolling A/H/A/H/A circle, and the resulting schedule derived thereof).

edit2: And inside this system the e.g. best team would be used to realign the gamedays each year. If for example Spain would win this year's championship they would have had 3 home games this season, and 2 home games next season. Making them the imaginable winner of 2019, would determine the 2020 schedule based on their match scheme: First away game against the lowest ranked team of the away games, first home match against the lowest ranked team for home matches, etc. that their schedule would be again (A/H/A/H/A). The rest of the schedule can be easily inserted iteratively.


You forget about the most important thing, up to two teams (4 teams would also be possible actually) won't be the same teams within those two years.
Therefore it is simply not possible to make a (H/A/H/A/H)-system work as teams are 1) not the same 2) if they are the same,

But it also comes down to
1) you have to die one death. Two-year-cycles which lead to a relegated team being down for two years or the chance of promotion every year. The latter has its schedule flaws, but still better than option 1
2) nobody really cares
3) your system is way to complicated. Why use an algorythm when you can also use simple rankings which everybody can read up, who is capable of googleing it.


and edit2 I either didn't understand or it makes no sense (an indicator for "no sense" is that the "worst home team" will most likely also be the "worst away team" who still won the relegation match), but I'm still up for further explanations.
edit1 i didn't understand at all.

Gorbeh wrote:"and due to the promotion/relegation process Germany or Norway f.e. have only 2 home fixtures in two consecutive years and are, therefore, are at a disadvantage two years in a row compared to their closest rivals.


Basically your problem is the one-year-relegation-option. Otherwise you are just complaining that, if you throw a coin you might get two of the same sides in a row (you can't get more because if the same side comes up two times, then Rugby Europe changes the side of the coin, before you are allowed to throw again)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby Gorbeh » Tue, 02 Oct 2018, 09:16

Ok, first of all. As a spectator as well as a playing side, I wouldn't say it is complaining, to have to fly two years in a row to the same destination, in comparison to just alternate every year. And you can do that every year, without realigning H/A fixtures every two years. This would also lead to easier organisational and financial planning structures for all unions, as the number of fixtures as well as the cash streams are easier to depict on a longer basis than just 2 years. (Travelling costs, stadium costs, as well as marketing ticket income etc). For smaller unions such as Germany one home or away game can make a huge difference.

Regarding 2 or up to 4 teams are not the same, I already mentioned it in my previous post, "the promoted/relegated side would take over the spots from the other team". Taking my model into consideration Romania should have 2 home games this season. Assuming they are relegated Portugal would take over their schedule, and Romania the schedule of Portugal inside the Trophy calendar (2 home games this season after my model). For the pure tier (Champ, Trophy, C1, C2, nothing would change for the remaining teams. The H/A cycle would go on as usual, alternating the home and away games, only the opponent would change. Hence, as long as one stays inside its own division it is easy to know how many games one has in the next x years. Only if one is relegated or promoted the number of H/A games could change.

Your poblem to understand my two edits. and the scheduling. Let me try making it easy. Lets assume we would like to favour the better teams slightly. Then we would take the winner Georgia, which has (after my model) 2 home, 3 away games this season. Hence we give them the following schedule this year: A-H-A-H-A.
The first away game can be either: Belgium(4)/Spain(5)/Romania(6). Hence the first away game is Romania vs Georgia. The second away game (3rd gameday) will be Spain vs Georgia and the last one (5th gameday) Belgium vs Georgia. The two home games will be Russia (2) or Germany (3). Hence the Schedule of Georgia would be: @Romania (6), vs Germany (3), @Spain (5), vs Russia (2), @Belgium (4).
Then we take Russia [2-3 schedule]: home: Germany (3), Romania (6); away: Georgia (1), Belgium (4), Spain (5).
Hence Russia's schedule: @Spain (5), vs Romania (6), @Belgium (4), @Georgia (1) [here it is important the Georgian seating is over Russia, thus they get the A-H-A-H-A calendar], vs Germany (3).
Then Germany [3-2]: vs Belgium (4), @Georgia (1), vs Romania (6), vs Spain (5), @Russia (2)
and so on...

This is 5mins adjusting in my head. an algorithm can be easily programmed for that. And one would adjust for two factors on a yearly basis: Last years performance: as schedule is iteratively determined from the top positioned team downwards. And home advantage changes on a yearly basis. This is also preferale for duels such as e.g. the Antim Cup and or possible relegation shootouts GER vs. BEL.

Inside the lower divisions (Conference especially). This format would be even fairer, as they are always 2 home and 2 away games. Hence the remaining teams alternate and the new teams take over the spost from the previous teams. E.g. Latvia from Luxembourg, Austria from Estonia. The games between Finland, Norway, and Denmark would just alternate the location.

edit: One could argue that after this iterative system, one or two nations can have a stretch of up to 3 games on a H/A basis. To conquer that, it can be easily implemented to realign gamedays accordingly, that the longest stretch is no more than 2 games.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby NedRugby » Thu, 04 Oct 2018, 16:14

I have to say, as a spectator, I go and watch the home games whoever it is against. I never fly to away games. I have driven to Brussels on occasion, but that is only 2 or 3 hours. The bienniel schedule doesn't bother me in the least as long as it is fair.

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Re: Czech Republic vs Poland RET 29.09.18

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 05 Oct 2018, 07:34

A Union which has a problem to plan in a two-year-cycle rather than a one-year-cycle has other problems you need to adress first. Your plan doesn't bring a solution to a single thing as the outcome is actually the very same thing.

Okay now I'm really riddled, what your problem is with the actual system.

1. you advocate a two-year-cycle with alternating home-and-away-games (which we actually do have with a relegated or promoted team having the chance of having an exception in 50% of their cases). That's exactly what we have now.

2. Then you make an example of the existing schedule (Georgia has exactly A-H-A-H-A in 2019, and that against the 6th ranked team from 2018 away), Rugby Europe only chose to let the 1st play the 5th at home, then the 4th away, then the 3rd at home and then the 2nd away. The REC-schedule makes more sense imho as the best two teams of the last season meet in the last match, which more likely creates a "final". Yes that's not necessarily the case in 2020, but that's a compromise, to make early planning possible. Every team knows already who they will play when in 2020 (sole excemption caused through possible relegation). That's good. This makes planning easy.

3. And that's were it gets a bit messy. The schedule for 2020 is exactly what you want. Georgia will first play Romania/Portugal/RET winner at home, then the 5nd ranked team from 2018, then the 4th, the 3rd, the 2nd on a H-A-H-A-H.

The German Union knows exactly for at least half a year now (since the point deductions were confirmed) that they will have two home games in 2019 and three home games in 2020 (they also know that they even have the 3 home-games in 2020 if they get relegated, as the 1st ranked RET-team has the same schedule as the 1st ranked REC team with 3 home games in 2020). And your idea of "the promoted union takes over the spot of" is exactly what a promoted/relegated team does now.

So sorry, that I have to ask again, what is your point that isn't already the case? Change the schedule on a yearly basis but still with a changing home-and-away? What's the difference apart from less time for planning and a shorter financial forecast (based on how you solve the problem below).

So let me give you one example, why this doesn't work in some cases and what's the flaw with both systems.

Lets say Belgium gets relegated in 2019. Portugal gets promoted.
Belgium had 3 home games in 2019. Portugal had 2 home games in 2019.
So we now have 4 teams in the REC 2020 who had only 2 home games in 2019. How do you solve it?
REC solves it by simply the promoted team taking over the schedule of the relegated team. What's your solution? Which team do you "penalize"?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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