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What should change in REC?

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Tobar » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 00:56

What does this guy know?

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 01:24

Commercially it would be valuable to have Germany and Netherlands involved. They are also similar in level to Belgium and Portugal and their domestic player development seems to be on the right track with good young players coming through who are getting foreign experience. After them there is a drop off in RET at the moment though and the other teams are also not very big markets so I think 2 extra teams works all round for the time being.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 02:01

ihateblazers wrote:Commercially it would be valuable to have Germany and Netherlands involved. They are also similar in level to Belgium and Portugal and their domestic player development seems to be on the right track with good young players coming through who are getting foreign experience. After them there is a drop off in RET at the moment though and the other teams are also not very big markets so I think 2 extra teams works all round for the time being.


Hopefully it comes alongside a plan to properly market and develop the competition. A really radical change which I doubt would happen but I think could be interesting. They go to two pools of 4 and then proceed to play a 10 game season playing their pool opponents both home and away and then each team from the corresponding pool.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 02:30

Yes, useless to change format if the marketing doesn't improve.
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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 02:42

Working Class Rugger wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:Commercially it would be valuable to have Germany and Netherlands involved. They are also similar in level to Belgium and Portugal and their domestic player development seems to be on the right track with good young players coming through who are getting foreign experience. After them there is a drop off in RET at the moment though and the other teams are also not very big markets so I think 2 extra teams works all round for the time being.


Hopefully it comes alongside a plan to properly market and develop the competition. A really radical change which I doubt would happen but I think could be interesting. They go to two pools of 4 and then proceed to play a 10 game season playing their pool opponents both home and away and then each team from the corresponding pool.


No doubt that marketing and commercialisation must be the priority for Rugby Europe. By including Germany and Netherlands and Portugal being promoted last year's, perhaps they could have more to sell to broadcaster's and sponsors. To me it feels like they would have the "correct" teams involved now. Maybe the thinking is that RE are also looking at each of these 8 nation's being involved in that rumoured European league project to replace the shield.

I just wish that 6N ltd could come on board in an advisory capacity at the very least for marketing. Looking at it from the point of view of long term growth potential.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 05:26

ihateblazers wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:Commercially it would be valuable to have Germany and Netherlands involved. They are also similar in level to Belgium and Portugal and their domestic player development seems to be on the right track with good young players coming through who are getting foreign experience. After them there is a drop off in RET at the moment though and the other teams are also not very big markets so I think 2 extra teams works all round for the time being.


Hopefully it comes alongside a plan to properly market and develop the competition. A really radical change which I doubt would happen but I think could be interesting. They go to two pools of 4 and then proceed to play a 10 game season playing their pool opponents both home and away and then each team from the corresponding pool.


No doubt that marketing and commercialisation must be the priority for Rugby Europe. By including Germany and Netherlands and Portugal being promoted last year's, perhaps they could have more to sell to broadcaster's and sponsors. To me it feels like they would have the "correct" teams involved now. Maybe the thinking is that RE are also looking at each of these 8 nation's being involved in that rumoured European league project to replace the shield.

I just wish that 6N ltd could come on board in an advisory capacity at the very least for marketing. Looking at it from the point of view of long term growth potential.


Makes sense as outside of the 6Ns these are the nations offering the best competitive mix alongside commercial markets. Would be great if they can get something like a league up and running.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby iul » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 06:14

Why two pools? Just play 7 games.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 07:50

iul wrote:Why two pools? Just play 7 games.


Well, it came up in a comment and response from the same sources tweet. It was reported that they were looking at it back during the NC debacle so it seems like that's what they are looking to go with. If they were to keep the current structure than a straight 7 would work. But as I previously suggested the two pools concept allows for a couple of different permutations that could be utilised.

I personally like the 10 game season with finals. Play 5 in the current REC window. And the rest in July and have Nov. as the finals. Though a straight 7 could work much the same. First 5 games in the current REC window. Another two plus finals in July. Work it some that say the top 4 alongside making the finals earn the opportunity to host T1 team in November.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Ainsthrilln » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 10:57

iul wrote:Why two pools? Just play 7 games.


Agree.

I don't see the point of extending the REC to June's window. Spain (or Georgia) for example would have problems with the players in France.

And it would clash with Nations Cup and June tours. Georgia is going to play in South Africa in 2020, and Spain did in Uruguay, Chile and Uruguay in 2019. Exchanging these matches with others with the Netherlands would not be much appreciated by the upper half of the REC.

I would rather to play 7 matches in february-march, o two groups of 4, semifinals and final.

In any case, these groups would be split geographically or based on the results of the previous year?

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 11:29

If you played two pools, a semi and a final it's 5 match so fits in the 6N release window still.

You could have the final at a prearranged final and build it up and sell tickets regardless of the finalists. You could move it around and host it in France occasionally even.

Selling a package to TV with a definitive "European Championship Final" may well be considered easier and certainly gives a focus to the competition each year. I can see lots of positives imo.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 14:12

7 weekends in a row? Otherwise, no foreign based players, as 6N window has 7 weekends only.
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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Tobar » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 19:02

ihateblazers wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:Commercially it would be valuable to have Germany and Netherlands involved. They are also similar in level to Belgium and Portugal and their domestic player development seems to be on the right track with good young players coming through who are getting foreign experience. After them there is a drop off in RET at the moment though and the other teams are also not very big markets so I think 2 extra teams works all round for the time being.


Hopefully it comes alongside a plan to properly market and develop the competition. A really radical change which I doubt would happen but I think could be interesting. They go to two pools of 4 and then proceed to play a 10 game season playing their pool opponents both home and away and then each team from the corresponding pool.


No doubt that marketing and commercialisation must be the priority for Rugby Europe. By including Germany and Netherlands and Portugal being promoted last year's, perhaps they could have more to sell to broadcaster's and sponsors. To me it feels like they would have the "correct" teams involved now. Maybe the thinking is that RE are also looking at each of these 8 nation's being involved in that rumoured European league project to replace the shield.

I just wish that 6N ltd could come on board in an advisory capacity at the very least for marketing. Looking at it from the point of view of long term growth potential.


It would be in their best interest to increase local marketing by just enough for these countries and to keep 6N as the premier competition. If more fans were actually interested in and aware of the REC then they’d really be interested in the 6N. More opportunities for TV deals across Europe with minimal commitment.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby ihateblazers » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 11:42

Tobar wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:Commercially it would be valuable to have Germany and Netherlands involved. They are also similar in level to Belgium and Portugal and their domestic player development seems to be on the right track with good young players coming through who are getting foreign experience. After them there is a drop off in RET at the moment though and the other teams are also not very big markets so I think 2 extra teams works all round for the time being.


Hopefully it comes alongside a plan to properly market and develop the competition. A really radical change which I doubt would happen but I think could be interesting. They go to two pools of 4 and then proceed to play a 10 game season playing their pool opponents both home and away and then each team from the corresponding pool.


No doubt that marketing and commercialisation must be the priority for Rugby Europe. By including Germany and Netherlands and Portugal being promoted last year's, perhaps they could have more to sell to broadcaster's and sponsors. To me it feels like they would have the "correct" teams involved now. Maybe the thinking is that RE are also looking at each of these 8 nation's being involved in that rumoured European league project to replace the shield.

I just wish that 6N ltd could come on board in an advisory capacity at the very least for marketing. Looking at it from the point of view of long term growth potential.


It would be in their best interest to increase local marketing by just enough for these countries and to keep 6N as the premier competition. If more fans were actually interested in and aware of the REC then they’d really be interested in the 6N. More opportunities for TV deals across Europe with minimal commitment.


It's wishful thinking from me but the new CEO of the 6 nation's was the head of NBA Europe and has other experience in Europe. I think he is French or at least is bilingual so maybe he will have a more expansionist vision for the 6 nation's and European rugby. I don't think we will see Georgia join the 6 nation's but there might be moves to grow the game in Europe for the benefit of the 6 nation's. Maybe...

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Tobar » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 18:01

I don’t expect the 6 Nations to have any interest in promotion/relegation unless we get to the point where the REC can draw similar crowds and be competitive enough so that if a team like Italy goes down then they aren’t smashing other teams. And even then I highly doubt it would even become reality.

So my point is that if we want any hope of this happening then we need to get REC to the point where it’s at least considered a somewhat viable alternative, either in competition or in financial return (preferably both). So all that we can really do at this point is to grow the sport, professionalize the REC and hope for the best.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby NedRugby » Mon, 25 Nov 2019, 00:18

Tobar wrote:What does this guy know?


We still don't know the answer to this. Some unknown guy has suggested that big changes in REC are underway, implying that the top division will consist of 8 teams. We await the outcome of the upcoming RE general assembly. I'm especially interested as the Netherlands would presumably be one of the 8.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 25 Nov 2019, 07:27

sk 88 wrote:If you played two pools, a semi and a final it's 5 match so fits in the 6N release window still.

You could have the final at a prearranged final and build it up and sell tickets regardless of the finalists. You could move it around and host it in France occasionally even.

Selling a package to TV with a definitive "European Championship Final" may well be considered easier and certainly gives a focus to the competition each year. I can see lots of positives imo.


This is exactly how I would like it the most. Have three weekends in a group, then the European championship finals with cup/trophy semis and finals at one pre-set-place. 5-8 play on a saturday, 1-4 on a sunday. The winners of the "finals" get two home games in the next year. The 8th team plays a playdown. It would also solve the issues of releases, with Unions trying hard to get those players for the final stage, so we finally really see the best our nations have to offer for two games in a row.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Edinburra » Mon, 25 Nov 2019, 08:36

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sk 88 wrote:If you played two pools, a semi and a final it's 5 match so fits in the 6N release window still.

You could have the final at a prearranged final and build it up and sell tickets regardless of the finalists. You could move it around and host it in France occasionally even.

Selling a package to TV with a definitive "European Championship Final" may well be considered easier and certainly gives a focus to the competition each year. I can see lots of positives imo.


This is exactly how I would like it the most. Have three weekends in a group, then the European championship finals with cup/trophy semis and finals at one pre-set-place. 5-8 play on a saturday, 1-4 on a sunday. The winners of the "finals" get two home games in the next year. The 8th team plays a playdown. It would also solve the issues of releases, with Unions trying hard to get those players for the final stage, so we finally really see the best our nations have to offer for two games in a row.


This looks a tremendous idea , particularly if the weekends are sold as a package and the TV distriubtion is allocated fairly. In my naive head if this was replicated in an expanded 6 Nations with equal commercial distribution rights , it would a bit of a game changer. Champion of the REC goes up , loser of the 7/8 play of from expanded 6N goes down. Its almost too simple

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 25 Nov 2019, 09:09

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sk 88 wrote:If you played two pools, a semi and a final it's 5 match so fits in the 6N release window still.

You could have the final at a prearranged final and build it up and sell tickets regardless of the finalists. You could move it around and host it in France occasionally even.

Selling a package to TV with a definitive "European Championship Final" may well be considered easier and certainly gives a focus to the competition each year. I can see lots of positives imo.


This is exactly how I would like it the most. Have three weekends in a group, then the European championship finals with cup/trophy semis and finals at one pre-set-place. 5-8 play on a saturday, 1-4 on a sunday. The winners of the "finals" get two home games in the next year. The 8th team plays a playdown. It would also solve the issues of releases, with Unions trying hard to get those players for the final stage, so we finally really see the best our nations have to offer for two games in a row.


Could also restructure the RET while they're at it to match. Honestly, as Edinburra suggests I'd be all for the RC adopting a similar format. Thinking about it. If say the 6Ns and RC were to do so. Going to two pools of 4 each across two divisions respectively they could each use the current 6Ns and RC windows and then use the November window as the finals.

So up north you'd have the 6Ns plus Georgia and likely one of Romania/Spain with a 2nd Div of Romania/Spain, Russia, Portugal, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Ukraine/Switzerland/Poland. In the RC you'd have the current 4 plus Japan and Fiji plus both Tonga and Samoa (going from rankings) below that you'd have essentially the entire Americas Rugby Championship plus HK and Namibia. If the money was there you'd get the SANZAAR nations on board pretty easily. THe trick will be the 6Ns.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Edinburra » Mon, 25 Nov 2019, 18:02

Could also restructure the RET while they're at it to match. Honestly, as Edinburra suggests I'd be all for the RC adopting a similar format. Thinking about it. If say the 6Ns and RC were to do so. Going to two pools of 4 each across two divisions respectively they could each use the current 6Ns and RC windows and then use the November window as the finals.

So up north you'd have the 6Ns plus Georgia and likely one of Romania/Spain with a 2nd Div of Romania/Spain, Russia, Portugal, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Ukraine/Switzerland/Poland. In the RC you'd have the current 4 plus Japan and Fiji plus both Tonga and Samoa (going from rankings) below that you'd have essentially the entire Americas Rugby Championship plus HK and Namibia. If the money was there you'd get the SANZAAR nations on board pretty easily. THe trick will be the 6Ns.[/quote]

Good idea , if you think of it along those lines , these could essentially double up as World Cup qualifiers for an expanded World Cup qualifier.
As every team finishes in a particular ranking , then the number of spaces for each region would be easily identified.
As you said , the challenge is the 6N.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 28 Nov 2019, 12:28

Expansion rejected until 2023
https://rugger.info/news/29738

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 28 Nov 2019, 12:44

I think the reasoning is not totally wrong. This shouldn't be changed overnight. Not sure if 2023 is too long or not. German rugby has other issues and seriously needs to rebuild at the moment, so I understand why our Union was against it. In the long run, the 8 team format with two final rounds at one place is the best I've heard about.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby Tobar » Thu, 28 Nov 2019, 13:02

Netherlands should be promoted anyway so I suppose it isn’t that big of a deal for them

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 28 Nov 2019, 14:23

Tobar wrote:Netherlands should be promoted anyway so I suppose it isn’t that big of a deal for them


If they win the Trophy they need to beat Belgium or Portugal to be promoted.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby wooden shoe » Thu, 28 Nov 2019, 21:24

From Dutch perspective I think it's a pity that there is no expansion of the REC yet.
The improvement of the scrum and the pure speed of the 2 young backlineplayers Hop and vKampen are signs that Oranje will be competitive enough. We are starting to growing above RET level, allthough Switzerland away was not an easy game last year.
Nevertheless we will still have to make some further steps as most of our players are not used at all to the pressure they will meet at REC level. We have to keep in mind that a big part of the team are amateurs with a fulltime job who will have to face full pro Georgians.
If our young players playing abroad keep showing up for internationals , I'm sure we will be there within a few years.
And we also have a wider base of Dutch and Netherlands eligible players abroad, as is also the case for the other REC teams.
As far as the infrastructure and atmosphere is concerned, I think we are ready. We would be proud to receive the REC in Amsterdam (apart from the artificial grass) to show the positives of our enjoyable Dutch rugbyculture .

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Re: What should change in REC?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 29 Nov 2019, 07:35

wooden shoe wrote:From Dutch perspective I think it's a pity that there is no expansion of the REC yet.
The improvement of the scrum and the pure speed of the 2 young backlineplayers Hop and vKampen are signs that Oranje will be competitive enough. We are starting to growing above RET level, allthough Switzerland away was not an easy game last year.
Nevertheless we will still have to make some further steps as most of our players are not used at all to the pressure they will meet at REC level. We have to keep in mind that a big part of the team are amateurs with a fulltime job who will have to face full pro Georgians.
If our young players playing abroad keep showing up for internationals , I'm sure we will be there within a few years.
And we also have a wider base of Dutch and Netherlands eligible players abroad, as is also the case for the other REC teams.
As far as the infrastructure and atmosphere is concerned, I think we are ready. We would be proud to receive the REC in Amsterdam (apart from the artificial grass) to show the positives of our enjoyable Dutch rugbyculture .


Your chance will come. I thought for years, that the Netherlands are the ones to watch long term. A small country (41,5km², that's just over half the size of my state Bavaria, 1/3 of NZ North island, half of the size of the whole of Ireland, just double the size of the US state New Jersey) with 17 (!) million inhabitants. And then the tallest average population in the world as a bonus.
Infrastructurewise there's everything there to even be successful with a small playing base, because you can bring everyone together easily. No more then two hours to the high performance center no matter where you live in NL. Is your union now back in order after its financial crisis?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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