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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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6
11%
Against
50
89%
 
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby MikeN » Mon, 01 Apr 2019, 20:14

What about the whole issue of sharing the profit from games with the visiting side? Has that well and truly been discarded?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 22:10

You'll need Google translate, but the gist of it is promotion/relegation pushed back until 2030. Germany and Belgium though apparently in favour of this.

https://www.revista22.es/2019/04/peligr ... -naciones/

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 22:46

Beaumont started by admitting that Europe would be the Confederation that would be worse off in the economic agreement with the new scenario, immediately after informing that the World League would not open the system to the playoff of promotions and descents in any case until 2030. That is, ten years with the closed system, which would mean that the countries of the first level would enter around 7.5 million annually, while the Tier 2 countries would receive only 750,000.

In addition, that amount would go mostly to pay salaries of players and selectors, which would not leave in the coffers of the federations or a euro. And to that is added that not the countries of level 3 would not enter a single euro until they ascend to the second tier.

Upon learning this information Georgia has shown its absolute opposition to the model, warning that "our government would withdraw support for rugby and this sport would disappear from our country in three years." Despite this, there have been two countries that voted incomprehensibly in favor: Germany and Belgium.


:thumbup:

Germany otoh - way to sell out your supposed European partners.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 23:14

That is exactly what Ive been saying. World Rugby cannot be trusted. In 2030, they will find a way to extend promotion relegation even further and so on. This should be their new slogan: "F T2! Money and mo' money".

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 23:53

Why on earth would Germany and Belgium back this proposal?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 01:11

thatrugbyguy wrote:Why on earth would Germany and Belgium back this proposal?


The piece states that the 1st Div teams would receive £7.5m/season (I'm assuming it's £'s because if it's Euros or dollars it's even less). The original proposal had them receiving £10m/season. I'm struggling to see how the likes of the the T1 nations would argue for less money or be willing to accept less. This deal broken down on a yearly basis would bank WR £416m/year. Paying the 1st Div countries just £7.5m/year (12 teams) and the 2nd Div £750k/year (10 teams) that would total £97.5m annually in payments. So where will the other £318.5m go?

There's either a lot of detail missing or we aren't being told the whole story by one or both sides here. I mean they could split it something like D1 £10/year, D1 £7.5/year and D3 £2.5/year and still have £171m left over to add to the funds they raise via the RWC.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 01:32

It's entirely possible we are only getting one side of the story. There would have to be something pretty impressive or lucrative on the table for Germany and Belgium to break rank. We need more information.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 01:36


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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 04:20

thatrugbyguy wrote:It's entirely possible we are only getting one side of the story. There would have to be something pretty impressive or lucrative on the table for Germany and Belgium to break rank. We need more information.


Exactly. All I know with any certainty is that there's no way the D1 nations would agree to less money than originally proposed. No way. No how.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 06:46

Working Class Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:It's entirely possible we are only getting one side of the story. There would have to be something pretty impressive or lucrative on the table for Germany and Belgium to break rank. We need more information.


Exactly. All I know with any certainty is that there's no way the D1 nations would agree to less money than originally proposed. No way. No how.


Really strange indeed.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 07:24

Could you see any reason the German union would favour the ideas being described?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 07:53

thatrugbyguy wrote:Could you see any reason the German union would favour the ideas being described?


I am not firm enough on the finance details nor have an idea what the DRV's plan is, to take more than a wild guess: could it be that this means more money for German rugby than the status quo?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 08:29

It's Fermín de la Calle, so don't discard he made up a bit of drama. But I would understand why Germany and Belgium would vote in favour of this. Are they going to be ready to get promotion to a hypthetical first division before 2030? No. Does the proposal increase their current test match schedule? Yes. Does it secure revenues superior to the ones currently receiving? Probably, 750,000€ is a lot of money for a T2/T3 union.

It's a shit plan for Georgia and Romania. So-so for Russia since right now they can fund an arms race and Spain because our current test schedule is decent enough. Good for everybody else.

Anyway, this vote doesn't count for anything, the ball isn't on our court.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 10:05

Armchair Fan wrote:It's Fermín de la Calle, so don't discard he made up a bit of drama. But I would understand why Germany and Belgium would vote in favour of this. Are they going to be ready to get promotion to a hypthetical first division before 2030? No. Does the proposal increase their current test match schedule? Yes. Does it secure revenues superior to the ones currently receiving? Probably, 750,000€ is a lot of money for a T2/T3 union.

It's a shit plan for Georgia and Romania. So-so for Russia since right now they can fund an arms race and Spain because our current test schedule is decent enough. Good for everybody else.

Anyway, this vote doesn't count for anything, the ball isn't on our court.


And that's assuming his figures are correct which I have a hard time buying as it would represent a net fall in incomes from the original proposal. If anything I would expect the D1 take to have increased than reduced. Which has me questioning things.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 10:13

I am wondering what they (the World Rugby) promised to Spain?

Armchair Fan' s explanation about Spain is ridiculous.

T3 countries receive nothing. T2 nations receive 10 times less than T1. Bravo! New Apartheid is in action.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 10:33

BigG wrote:I am wondering what they (the World Rugby) promised to Spain?

Armchair Fan' s explanation about Spain is ridiculous.

T3 countries receive nothing. T2 nations receive 10 times less than T1. Bravo! New Apartheid is in action.

The article states Spain is on Georgia's side. Better said, it claims "Spain supports the majoritary opinion of Europe" which is understood to be against the proposal, hence the direct reference to Germany and Belgium position.

And the explanation isn't that ridiculous. 750,000€ in financial help is a lot of money compared to what we already receive. Yes, it keeps distances between T1 and T2 and blah, blah, blah, we all know it. But on the short run I can understand why some may think it's good enough.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 10:41

Armchair Fan wrote:
BigG wrote:I am wondering what they (the World Rugby) promised to Spain?

Armchair Fan' s explanation about Spain is ridiculous.

T3 countries receive nothing. T2 nations receive 10 times less than T1. Bravo! New Apartheid is in action.

The article states Spain is on Georgia's side. Better said, it claims "Spain supports the majoritary opinion of Europe" which is understood to be against the proposal, hence the direct reference to Germany and Belgium position.

And the explanation isn't that ridiculous. 750,000€ in financial help is a lot of money compared to what we already receive. Yes, it keeps distances between T1 and T2 and blah, blah, blah, we all know it. But on the short run I can understand why some may think it's good enough.


Sorry for misunderstanding. In the article I read it is said "Spain warned that it adheres to the majority criterion of Europe". In this context I took "Europe" as "Six Nations".

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 10:56

Armchair Fan wrote:
BigG wrote:I am wondering what they (the World Rugby) promised to Spain?

Armchair Fan' s explanation about Spain is ridiculous.

T3 countries receive nothing. T2 nations receive 10 times less than T1. Bravo! New Apartheid is in action.

The article states Spain is on Georgia's side. Better said, it claims "Spain supports the majoritary opinion of Europe" which is understood to be against the proposal, hence the direct reference to Germany and Belgium position.

And the explanation isn't that ridiculous. 750,000€ in financial help is a lot of money compared to what we already receive. Yes, it keeps distances between T1 and T2 and blah, blah, blah, we all know it. But on the short run I can understand why some may think it's good enough.


I still wouldn't be too pleased if they were only providing the D2 teams £750k by the way. They could easily go a 10/5/2.5 split and have more than plenty left over.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 11:09

Tell that to a cash-strapped union. I believe Belgium hasn't got more than 2M€ budget and no June and November windows. Give them 750,000€, six games and three of them at home and it's completely logical that they vote for it.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 11:11

I still wouldn't be too pleased if they were only providing the D2 teams £750k by the way. They could easily go a 10/5/2.5 split and have more than plenty left over.[/quote]

No matter what they provide to different levels. The main point is that without promotion/relegation rugby is doomed to be deadlocked.

I believe Six Nations (especially Ango-Celtic part of it) wants to have rugby for themselves not for the whole world.

Lessons are learned - football (soccer) has become the worldwide sport and as a result "Home Nations" nowadays are far from being the best.

That is why they are so furious about rugby becoming global.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 12:11

BigG wrote:I still wouldn't be too pleased if they were only providing the D2 teams £750k by the way. They could easily go a 10/5/2.5 split and have more than plenty left over.

No matter what they provide to different levels. The main point is that without promotion/relegation rugby is doomed to be deadlocked.

I believe Six Nations (especially Ango-Celtic part of it) wants to have rugby for themselves not for the whole world.

Lessons are learned - football (soccer) has become the worldwide sport and as a result "Home Nations" nowadays are far from being the best.

That is why they are so furious about rugby becoming global.


Soccer became a worldwide sport a long time ago. Not really an equivalence. But not having promotion/relegation for the first 9 editions isn't ideal. Far from it but being honest here. How likely are any of the teams in D2 of actually winning the play off game? If they money is right and it needs to be right the time before pro/rel comes in could be used to create a very competitive level with the ability to compete at a higher level.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 12:42

Armchair’s explanation does make sense from a T3 perspective. Securing that type of money for 12 years would give a significant boost to a T3 union. The issue is money doesn’t mean a hell of a lot if you can’t play against higher ranked opponents on a regular basis. The issue rugby has is that it’s stuck between money and development, and it seems we can only choose between one or the other. The only solution to both is if there investors who actually want to see development. Currently all the investors are looking only at the 6N and RC. What’s needed are investors who are willing to look at the bigger picture, that developing the game in other countries and getting them more competitive will grow the sport globally. That’s the only solution I can think of.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 12:45

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Soccer became a worldwide sport a long time ago. Not really an equivalence. But not having promotion/relegation for the first 9 editions isn't ideal. Far from it but being honest here. How likely are any of the teams in D2 of actually winning the play off game? If they money is right and it needs to be right the time before pro/rel comes in could be used to create a very competitive level with the ability to compete at a higher level.


If I've learnt anything in the last years it is, that soccer actually became a global sport, because global admins let nobody from the Rainy Islands get involved in organizing the global game.

If soccer would have gone the same way, there wouldn't have been a World Cup (I am still shocked, when I found out a few weeks ago in this very thread, that the Home Nations had actually boycotted the first soccer World cups for one or the other British snob mentality reason), no Euro etc.

But that's not an option for Rugby, so maybe small, small, small, small changes every year might be the only possibility. Still hate that they really can get away with imposing a private tournament as a continental championship. And it is a big shame that they also continue to do this in youth and women's national teams.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 14:48

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Soccer became a worldwide sport a long time ago. Not really an equivalence. But not having promotion/relegation for the first 9 editions isn't ideal. Far from it but being honest here. How likely are any of the teams in D2 of actually winning the play off game? If they money is right and it needs to be right the time before pro/rel comes in could be used to create a very competitive level with the ability to compete at a higher level.

That's the whole point though, to make it impossible for any T2 Nation to get into the top division. You do this crap for ten years where the funding and development models are as planned. Who's got a chance for promotion? Georgia is a small country without a domestic league. The US professional league is just getting it's feet under it. So conceivable in 11 years the US could make it, but without the ability to compete on the top stage the small countries that have most of their NT in leagues elsewhere get screwed. There is no cool story about Iceland etc.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 15:33

According to my last info, the meeting with participation of RE leadership and REC nations (6 + Portugal) never turned to voting.

In other words Germany, Belgium, Spain as it was mentioned in the Spanish article did not vote for anything.

However it should be underlined that all REC (incl Portugal) members expressed their dissatisfaction towards the main approaches (points) of the Rugby League proposal.

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