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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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For
6
10%
Against
54
90%
 
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 28 Jun 2019, 17:44

I have to say I never knew there was a difference between American football and Canadian football.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Fri, 28 Jun 2019, 18:05

Very similar to the union v league situation. I think the field is slightly bigger in Canadian football and they only have three downs instead of four, so there's a tad more urgency involved. Canadian football also has 12 players on the pitch - one more than NFL.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 28 Jun 2019, 18:15

The best Rugby Union game will always be more exciting than League but the worst Union game will make paint drying seem exciting.

League is at least consistent. I prefer watching it because it has a lot of what I like about Rugby: slick passing, offloads, nice set plays, tactical kicking that rewards risk like going for the 40:20.

It is far simpler for the average punter who isn't intimately familiar with Union rules to understand. My wife has watched me play Union for years and still has no idea what is happening half the time. She loves watching Toronto Wolfpack though and gets really in to the matches.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 28 Jun 2019, 20:56

NedRugby wrote:I have to say I never knew there was a difference between American football and Canadian football.


Strategies and tactics in Canadian Football are way different.

Any players that aren't linemen are allowed to be in motion behind the line of scrimmage before the snap. There is no fair catch rule so every kicked ball is live. The field is wider and the endzones are longer so there is a lot more room and the CFL also only has a 20 second play clock so teams are limited with what they can do between plays. This encourages run and gun football.

The sports look the same because they wear the same equipment but they aren't played the same at all.



Canadian Football is usually a high scoring affair. Lots of big passes and crazy plays. The kicking rules are essentially the same as Rugby and you end up with some weird stuff happening. Example:

you can see that the safety (probably an American import) doesn't know the rules and didn't realize the ball was live and that #9 could recover that and score.



Special teams are big in the CFL and good special teams can catch teams napping and score lots of points, especially off field goals because the ball is live even after the kick is missed.

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BFaykcxGg&t=2s[/youtube]

This last video is a good example ofna specific CFL rule whereby teams can score 1 point off a field goal even if they miss the kick. If a field goal is missed but the ball goes straight out the back of the end zone or the receiving team is tackled with the ball in the end zone, the kicking team receives 1 point. This becomes very important in tie games because as I said before, a kicked ball is always live in Canadian Football. In the play above, Toronto had to keep the ball in play to prevent Montreal from scoring 1 point and winning on the field goal but they also had to get the ball out of their end zone either by kicking it dead or running it out. They weren't able to do that and Montreal recovered the ball and scored.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 29 Jun 2019, 00:26

Edgar wrote:With you all the way. NRL is not only a great competition, most of the teams are in the same city. Their profit margins must be huge! & State of Origin is even better. If they dropped the charade of being a world game, I would have no issues with the 13-man-code at all. In fact, I have played league myself, as well as union. I also think it's emerged as the better spectator sport, especially for the unindoctrinated. Rugby has become a little too complicated and the bashing away at the line from rucks and mauls (often culminating in one of the forwards burrowing across) is a real blight on the game from a spectator's point of view. I don't see any reason why the sports shouldn't co-exist, like NFL and Canadian Football. More opportunities for the players, more entertainment for the fans. I also think a union State of Origin could be something to consider, now that the Aussies have 4 Super Rugby franchises plus the Force. Why not pinch one of league's best ideas for a change? :twisted:


Very few of the NRL clubs make money. I grew up watching and playing both and while I do agree with some of the assessment that Rugby can be certainly made look more complicated than it really is (fortunately WR are looking at cutting the Laws by 50%) I tend to prefer as a player and now spectator Rugby over League thanks largely to the often formulaic nature that League has adopted.

In fact, it goes Rugby > English Super League > NRL in my books. SoO included. This is mainly because particularly in the NRL everything is play by numbers. I actually attended a prominent RL school here in Sydney and played with a number of recent past (more this these days) and present NRL players in my day
and from a early age you are boxed into a role and a set up stats. In a set forward X will take hit up 1 followed by forward Y etc. Which makes things repetitive and uninspiring. It also stunts a players growth.

From my coaching experience a Rugby forward actually has better all round skills than his League equivalent. Which in my opinion comes from the play by numbers nature of League compared to the less structured play of Rugby. I once coached a U13s School team. A handful of the kids came from a Rugby background while the rest were from League. We used to run a simple 3 on 2 drill as warm up at every practice. Outside of the Rugby kids and one of the League kids managed to do it comfortably enough while rest struggled to pass a ball or evade a defender when not operating from their preferred side to start. As in the couldn't pass right to left/left to right. By the end of the season despite continued instruction and demonstration while we had most at least able to pass out of both hands it at times was still very hit and miss.

The backs were easier. A few tweaks here and there with passing nothing too complicated. Both are fairly interchangeable. The biggest change to get them used to is not operating in that couple of yards the 10m rule in League provides.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 29 Jun 2019, 04:40

Surely from World Rugby's perspective the focus should now be pushing for an open RWC qualification system. There is no justifiable reason to be opposed to it and if Scotland and Ireland come out whinging again I wouldn't see them garnering much sympathy.

The thing I don't get is why World Rugby didn't make Sanzar concede anything for World League. I would have liked to have seen them say foreign player restrictions must be waived for all pro/semi pro rugby in Sanzar nation's for t2 qualified players. I just wonder if the 6 nation's felt like they were being soley targeted.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 29 Jun 2019, 05:07

From what I've seen of Canadian Football it's rugby roots are far more evident than what you seen in the NFL.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Scoob » Sat, 29 Jun 2019, 06:29

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugb ... r2-nations


This is what worldrugby should be reading.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Immenso » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 02:27

Scoob wrote:http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/rwc-2019-japan/113702299/nz-rugby-players-boss-rob-nichol-calls-for-fairer-rwc-payout-for-tier2-nations


This is what worldrugby should be reading.


Paraphrasing the article:

In essence, giving second-tier nations a straight slice of the World Cup commercial pie, as they do for the 10 top-tier nations, and ensuring an equitable share of that went to the players would solve the issue in an instant, Nichol said.

At present World Rugby redistributes its vast profits from the World Cup on a two-level basis.

The top 10 nations in the world are given straight fees designed to compensate them for the compromises they make to existing competitions in World Cup years. Their players receive an agreed percentage of that in the form of tournament fees and bonuses.

But for most "tier-two" countries, including the Pacific Island nations, their World Cup payoff comes in the form of development grants that do not see their way into the pockets of players who take part in the tournament.

"They don't allow the players to share in those funds. They invest in programmes and people. For the last 20 years they've done that and you get the feeling the islands have just treaded water because I don't know how effective those programmes have truly been.

Nichol said the whole process produced an ironic cycle where World Rugby put money into the island nations developing players who then left to ply their trade offshore and were often not available to play for their countries any more.


I think he makes a quite good point.
A set player tournament participation fee directly from WR might solve some of the issues.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 05:00

Scoob wrote:http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/rwc-2019-japan/113702299/nz-rugby-players-boss-rob-nichol-calls-for-fairer-rwc-payout-for-tier2-nations


This is what worldrugby should be reading.


I love how these articles only focus on Islander players...that's the system for us. The issue...World Rugby gives you just enough money to run your HP system for Men's XVs and M/W 7s. But it's not enough money to make age grades cost neutral or fund your women's program. We get roughly $2.5MM in development grants per year...also, you have to go through an application process to receive them. You don't just get them for having played in the RWC. So the reality is, we're bloody stuck on the WR breast to fund our programs because the sport is small and we don't have a high roller funding our growth like say a Georgia does (which is truly weird because there are a bunch of billionaires that have played Rugby). You know what we pay our players? $100/day. That stipend hasn't changed in almost 20 years.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 07:28

Immenso wrote:I think he makes a quite good point.
A set player tournament participation fee directly from WR might solve some of the issues.


Agree totally, World Rugby are at times like a dysfunctional charity that doesn't actually want the people it "helps" to improve because then they'd no longer have power over them.

For £3.5m every player at the tournament could get a £5,800 stipend which would make a decent dent in covering lost wages (from both normal work & pro rugby). We sometimes forget that not ever player is a pro and guys from a lot of T2 nations need to take time off work to play and prepare in a RWC.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 07:41

sk 88 wrote:
Immenso wrote:I think he makes a quite good point.
A set player tournament participation fee directly from WR might solve some of the issues.


Agree totally, World Rugby are at times like a dysfunctional charity that doesn't actually want the people it "helps" to improve because then they'd no longer have power over them.

For £3.5m every player at the tournament could get a £5,800 stipend which would make a decent dent in covering lost wages (from both normal work & pro rugby). We sometimes forget that not ever player is a pro and guys from a lot of T2 nations need to take time off work to play and prepare in a RWC.


I'd support the stipend for the T2 players. But not the T1 blokes. They're paid well enough as is.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 07:47

Agree totally, World Rugby are at times like a dysfunctional charity that doesn't actually want the people it "helps" to improve because then they'd no longer have power over them.


Not just at times either. That's the very nature of World Rugby's core members. On one hand they want the international game to develop, but on the other they want to remain on top. & we must remember that half of the foundation unions are small nations with under 10 million people.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 10:50

Because if the game was to actually develop many of the top tier nations would get left behind. What do you think would happen if big markets like the US, Canada, Brazil, Germany, Spain, Korea, Netherlands, Mexico, Russia, China, India, etc all had the same level of high performance structure in place as other T1 nations? The likes of Wales, Ireland and Scotland and potentially even New Zealand and Italy would fall by the wayside because they wouldn't be able to compete with the resources those countries could provide. Only France, England, Australia, Argentina and South Africa would probably survive. I think the problem is WR are in a bind. They can't properly expand the game without compromising the existing order. Basically, in order to develop things properly someone up the top is inevitably going to pay a price.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 11:05

Rugby is the biggest professional sport in Ireland. They aren’t going anywhere. The situation in Australia is obviously a lot more precarious with AFL and NRL dominating most places.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 11:46

4N wrote:Rugby is the biggest professional sport in Ireland. They aren’t going anywhere. The situation in Australia is obviously a lot more precarious with AFL and NRL dominating most places.



Rugby is bigger than soccer, Gaelic and hurling? :shock: That's news to me.

It does seem the game is in a very healthy state in Ireland at present, agreed, but I think the point was that countries like them wan't to make sure it stays that way. So long as they have a World Cup on their back doorstep every eight years, and the national side is getting through to the business end of the competition, interest in the sport will remain high. The same applies to Australia and anywhere else, of course.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 11:54

GAA is amateur. Rugby is bigger/richer/gets more coverage than domestic soccer *in Ireland*.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 11:57

4N wrote:GAA is amateur. Rugby is bigger/richer/gets more coverage than domestic soccer *in Ireland*.



Wow, excellent news for rugby then :thumbup:

Also, my previous comments were intended in the context of the discussion. Of course every union wants to ensure its own success. That's their job. It's for World Rugby to ensure that other nations have the opportunity to rise up to the same level.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dropkick » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 12:53

4N wrote:GAA is amateur. Rugby is bigger/richer/gets more coverage than domestic soccer *in Ireland*.



Just to keep things in perspective.
There are 32 counties in Ireland. County cork has more GAA clubs than there are rugby clubs in the whole of Ireland. It's mainly a summer sport so doesn't clash too much with rugby.


Soccer in Ireland is small and not well supported but we mainly get English and European soccer on TV which dwarfs coverage of Irish soccer.



Rugby is in good shape these days. We're roughly the same population as Scotland but get far more rugby coverage.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 14:12

4N wrote:Rugby is the biggest professional sport in Ireland. They aren’t going anywhere. The situation in Australia is obviously a lot more precarious with AFL and NRL dominating most places.


You honestly think Ireland wouldn’t be affected if all those big nations were at the same level as the T1’s?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 01 Jul 2019, 14:37

Not disproportionately.

Obviously if we double the number of nations capable of getting to a RWC quarter final we halve the number of times people can do it. But Ireland will not fade away into obscurity and never challenge, which I took to be the point.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 02 Jul 2019, 08:07

stipend for ... players

for pocket expenses: ice cream, tobacco, shopping ...
was in place as early as RWC 2003 in AUS =

1K pounds per person, for the ENTIRE party =
30 players then + 15 staff members + 2 local liasons

It seems 1K should have been at least doubled since

:::

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 02 Jul 2019, 09:38

sk 88 wrote:Not disproportionately.

Obviously if we double the number of nations capable of getting to a RWC quarter final we halve the number of times people can do it. But Ireland will not fade away into obscurity and never challenge, which I took to be the point.


Ireland might survive but they definitely wouldn't be guaranteed a place at the top anymore. Obviously more T1 level nations would be great for the sport, there would just be causalities along the way, unless of course WR expand the world cup to accommodate that. But even then that would be nothing but a band aid solution. Eventually a few nations at the top would start to drop in the pecking order.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Blurandski » Tue, 02 Jul 2019, 18:56

If rugby did become popular all around the world it doesn't mean that small nations would fade away. Uruguay a nation of 3.5m has come 4th, 12th, 5th at the past 3 Fifa WCs. Netherlands have come 7th, 4th, DNQ, 11th, 2nd, 3rd, DNQ.

Once a sport gets past a certain number of participants in a country, performances tend to fall off for it becomes much harder to effectively scout and develop people.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Tue, 02 Jul 2019, 19:19

Uruguay a nation of 3.5m has come 4th, 12th, 5th at the past 3 Fifa WCs.


Uruguayan soccer, Lithuanian basketball, Jamaican sprinting, Finnish hockey, Puerto Rican baseball etc. Getting “first pick” among athletes seems to be more important for success than population or a large economy. I think NZ and probably Irish rugby will be fine no matter how much the sport grows.

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