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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Are you:

For
6
10%
Against
55
90%
 
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:16

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:With the exception of the occasional video about some developing country, it's shocking to me how little they go about promoting things. We've got the REC coming up and you wouldn't know it was on unless you were already familiar with its scheduling. Like, it take 2 mins to write something on Facebook or Twitter.


The World Rugby Nations Cup should be the jewel in the crowd of tier 2 international rugby. Countries should be bidding for it. I'm sure hardly anyone knows about it.


There are only 3 pool games with no playoffs though and the top T2 nation's don't even participate. Really hard for it to be appealing. Hong Kong hosts the same thing in November.

It's basically for T2 nations who don't get T1 tests in July and can't seem to arrange games vs other T2 instead. Whether that is World Rugby's fault or the individual unions I don't know. It's a symbol of why there desperately needs to be some type of framework to organise t2 v t2 tests in order for them to get dependable home tests in July or November. Once we get that things like the nation's cup become obsolete and that's a good thing.


Every team plays 3 games in July. That's enough. Nations Cup is awesome. Uruguay vs three of the best tier 2 European teams, what's not to love? Can't wait to see who the other teams are. I'm guessing Argentina XV and Brazil.


But they lose the opportunity to make money from home tests and home advantage.

Every T2 America's/Oceania nation should be hosting 3 matches in July and Europe/Asia in November.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Silver Fox » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:16

So we have a timepath now:
The workshop followed a detailed Rugby World Cup debrief with teams in December and is the second step on the journey to identifying key principles of a potential and sustainable global competition model for teams outside of the two traditional annual competitions with a view on implementation in 2021.
The outcomes of the workshop will be presented to the World Rugby Regional Rugby Committee and Executive Committees in March with a view to accelerate focused consultation ahead of a preferred model being considered by the World Rugby Council in May.

- March 2020: Presentation of the outcomes of the workshop
- April 2020: focused consultation
- May 2020: Preferred model to be proposed at World Rugby Council
- July and November 2021: First edition of this WR competition.

I can't say I don't like the basic idea. It being a coherent entity with the inclusion of the likes of Japan, USA, Fiji and Georgia and potentially Russia and Spain it is has a lot of potential to grow both in appeal, fanbase and economical value.
The disadvantage it has is it's geographical spread and that it is starting with a less-to-non traditional fanbase.
Apart from that I'd like to tell myself that it has every opportunity to evolve into the third major nations cup aside the 6N and the RC.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:22

Well, Brazil is struggling to find a stadium for Corinthians. If we were invited to play in Montevideo the Nations Cup I think we should accept...
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:23

Silver Fox wrote:So we have a timepath now:
The workshop followed a detailed Rugby World Cup debrief with teams in December and is the second step on the journey to identifying key principles of a potential and sustainable global competition model for teams outside of the two traditional annual competitions with a view on implementation in 2021.
The outcomes of the workshop will be presented to the World Rugby Regional Rugby Committee and Executive Committees in March with a view to accelerate focused consultation ahead of a preferred model being considered by the World Rugby Council in May.

- March 2020: Presentation of the outcomes of the workshop
- April 2020: focused consultation
- May 2020: Preferred model to be proposed at World Rugby Council
- July and November 2021: First edition of this WR competition.

I can't say I don't like the basic idea. It being a coherent entity with the inclusion of the likes of Japan, USA, Fiji and Georgia and potentially Russia and Spain it is has a lot of potential to grow both in appeal, fanbase and economical value.
The disadvantage it has is it's geographical spread and that it is starting with a less-to-non traditional fanbase.
Apart from that I'd like to tell myself that it has every opportunity to evolve into the third major nations cup aside the 6N and the RC.


True but the current T2 fixtures seem to have the greatest appeal when they are playing the best, regardless of regional origin bar Georgia v Russia in Tbilisi.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:26

ihateblazers wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:With the exception of the occasional video about some developing country, it's shocking to me how little they go about promoting things. We've got the REC coming up and you wouldn't know it was on unless you were already familiar with its scheduling. Like, it take 2 mins to write something on Facebook or Twitter.


The World Rugby Nations Cup should be the jewel in the crowd of tier 2 international rugby. Countries should be bidding for it. I'm sure hardly anyone knows about it.


There are only 3 pool games with no playoffs though and the top T2 nation's don't even participate. Really hard for it to be appealing. Hong Kong hosts the same thing in November.

It's basically for T2 nations who don't get T1 tests in July and can't seem to arrange games vs other T2 instead. Whether that is World Rugby's fault or the individual unions I don't know. It's a symbol of why there desperately needs to be some type of framework to organise t2 v t2 tests in order for them to get dependable home tests in July or November. Once we get that things like the nation's cup become obsolete and that's a good thing.


Every team plays 3 games in July. That's enough. Nations Cup is awesome. Uruguay vs three of the best tier 2 European teams, what's not to love? Can't wait to see who the other teams are. I'm guessing Argentina XV and Brazil.


But they lose the opportunity to make money from home tests and home advantage.

Every T2 America's/Oceania nation should be hosting 3 matches in July and Europe/Asia in November.


I take your point. There's no reason why Russia, Romania and Spain couldn't each tour Sao Paulo, Montevideo and Buenos Aires over 3 weeks. I think I like the fixtures rather than the format.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:42

2019 tests were terrible in terms of attendances for Brazil. We lack a proper contract with a stadium to call a home. I think we should play away this July (if this means saving money and time to find a solution for 2021).
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:46

And CBRu's main sponsor Bradesco wants a "big event" every year, like Maoris and Barbarians. Both were in november, but if we followed the script they should've been in july. So, we could play the Nations Cup in Montevideo + 1 "big" home match (but TBH who would we call to come here?). That would be the better setup, but they are stuck in the SLAR mess for now...
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 13:49

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I take your point. There's no reason why Russia, Romania and Spain couldn't each tour Sao Paulo, Montevideo and Buenos Aires over 3 weeks. I think I like the fixtures rather than the format.

Money. Ask World Rugby about that.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:37

victorsra wrote:And CBRu's main sponsor Bradesco wants a "big event" every year, like Maoris and Barbarians. Both were in november, but if we followed the script they should've been in july. So, we could play the Nations Cup in Montevideo + 1 "big" home match (but TBH who would we call to come here?). That would be the better setup, but they are stuck in the SLAR mess for now...


So it isn't necessarily World Rugby's fault that we don't know what the T2 tests will be.

I don't necessarily believe that we have to keep it as 3 tests in July/November, they could spread them out or just assign windows based on the needs of the individual nations.

I know that money is an issue for many T2's to organise matches but as we've heard from World Rugby that's one of the things they are trying to address. I don't think nation's cup style tournaments is the future for T2 but I guess if there is no other alternative at least they are getting fixtures.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:43

ihateblazers wrote:
victorsra wrote:And CBRu's main sponsor Bradesco wants a "big event" every year, like Maoris and Barbarians. Both were in november, but if we followed the script they should've been in july. So, we could play the Nations Cup in Montevideo + 1 "big" home match (but TBH who would we call to come here?). That would be the better setup, but they are stuck in the SLAR mess for now...


So it isn't necessarily World Rugby's fault that we don't know what the T2 tests will be.

I don't necessarily believe that we have to keep it as 3 tests in July/November, they could spread them out or just assign windows based on the needs of the individual nations.

I know that money is an issue for many T2's to organise matches but as we've heard from World Rugby that's one of the things they are trying to address. I don't think nation's cup style tournaments is the future for T2 but I guess if there is no other alternative at least they are getting fixtures.


It seems that it is the best solution, for now.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 15:43

I honestly think July/November are not a problem. In South America the specific problem is the mess Brazil is doing with SLAR. But WR could assign in advance the tests anyway.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 03:28

I've been saying for years that a flexible international window would be for more beneficial for rugby nations. Before the year begins each unions works out when the best times of the year are for test matches. I remember the Wallabies playing the All Blacks as early as May many, many years ago, and also playing and touring in October.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 07:51

Here is an article which basically demonstrates everything that is wrong with international rugby. In nobody's imagination could Namibia, Canada and Japan be regarded as "emerging" rugby nations. They are three of its older members and the former pair were certainly better half a century ago than they are today. Similarly, Georgia appears to have stagnated, having hit ceiling level in the second tier competition it is involved in.

World Rugby's solution: To create an even bigger second tier competition. PNC, through its various incarnations, has proved an unqualified failure in terms of raising standards. 2nd tier nations need to be playing more regularly against 1st tier teams in order to improve. This is what brought Argentina up to speed, and Japan is now showing the benefits of increased exposure to the top level as well.

This latest plan looks to be a cop-out in similar vein, designed primarily to relieve the first tier of the "burden" of having to meet second tier opposition, after attempts to integrate them via an annual World League foundered on ultra-conservatism. The result will inevitably be an even more pronounced division between the first and second tiers.

The other concern is it may also become the primary focus of teams like Namibia, to the detriment of regional competition. We saw last year how Africa's second strongest nation did not compete with its neighbors, while traipsing off to participate in various international tournaments around the globe. & Japan have not been playing in Asia lately either. But regional competition must remain the priority for these teams if the global game is truly going to develop.

EMERGING rugby nations like Namibia could have a new international competition to look forward to after World Rugby on Thursday backed a plan to extend the game.

Following a workshop in London last week, that was attended by representatives from several emerging nations like Namibia, Canada, Georgia and Japan, World Rugby yesterday issued a statement saying they were committed to exploring a global competition model for emerging nations.

“Delivering a meaningful and sustainable competition model for unions outside of the Six Nations and The Rugby Championship that accelerates the competitiveness of the global game was the focus of a productive workshop hosted by World Rugby in London last week,” it said.
“The workshop followed a detailed Rugby World Cup debrief with teams in December and is the second step on the journey to identifying key principles of a potential and sustainable global competition model for teams outside of the two traditional annual competitions with a view on implementation in 2021,” it added.

According to the statement, the 'key outcome from the meeting was alignment in principle' on exploring a competition model that will bring greater context and structure to the international calendar for emerging nations. This will provide for a 'merit-based process' that will link the current continental competitions to a global competition at a higher performance level.

World Rugby chairman Sir Bill Beaumont said: “Enhancing competition opportunity, meaning and competitiveness for our unions outside of the Six Nations and The Rugby Championship is critical to the future growth, prosperity and sustainability of the global game.
“We must evolve and examine both opportunities and challenges from the fans and marketplace's perspectives, and not solely the performance imperative. It was great to see so much buy-in from the high performance personnel, coaches, players and chief executives – all agreed that meaningful change is required.
“This hugely productive and positive meeting demonstrated the collective alignment and excitement across the game to achieve something special that will truly enable us to better support and sustain the needs of our unions, driving a more competitive global game and Rugby World Cup, which is great for unions, players, fans, broadcasters and commercial partners. I would like to thank everyone for their full contributions.”

The outcomes of the workshop will be presented to the World Rugby Regional Rugby Committee and Executive Committees in March with a view to accelerate focused consultation ahead of a preferred model being considered by the World Rugby Council in May.
The workshop was attended by members of World Rugby and high performance and coaching personnel from nations including Canada, Fiji, Georgia, Japan, Namibia, Romania, Russia, Samoa, Spain, Tonga, Uruguay, and the USA, alongside representatives from all six World Rugby regions, Sanzaar, Six Nations and International Rugby Players.

The president of the Namibia Rugby Union, Corrie Mensah, who attended the workshop said the news was promising.

“It would have been nice if they at least could have given us a tentative model to look forward to, but I imagine they first want to present it to their executive committee for approval. They could have presented something in draft form to entice rugby fans and make them excited about the new competition model.

“But it looks positive and it seems that World Rugby has committed itself to a better competition model for emerging nations which will also help to prepare us for the next World Cup cycle,” he said.

https://www.namibian.com.na/87599/read/ ... ng-nations

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 08:24

Edgar wrote:Here is an article which basically demonstrates everything that is wrong with international rugby. In nobody's imagination could Namibia, Canada and Japan be regarded as "emerging" rugby nations. They are three of its older members and the former pair were certainly better half a century ago than they are today. Similarly, Georgia appears to have stagnated, having hit ceiling level in the second tier competition it is involved in.

World Rugby's solution: To create an even bigger second tier competition. PNC, through its various incarnations, has proved an unqualified failure in terms of raising standards. 2nd tier nations need to be playing more regularly against 1st tier teams in order to improve. This is what brought Argentina up to speed, and Japan is now showing the benefits of increased exposure to the top level as well.

This latest plan looks to be a cop-out in similar vein, designed primarily to relieve the first tier of the "burden" of having to meet second tier opposition, after attempts to integrate them via an annual World League foundered on ultra-conservatism. The result will inevitably be an even more pronounced division between the first and second tiers.

The other concern is it may also become the primary focus of teams like Namibia, to the detriment of regional competition. We saw last year how Africa's second strongest nation did not compete with its neighbors, while traipsing off to participate in various international tournaments around the globe. & Japan have not been playing in Asia lately either. But regional competition must remain the priority for these teams if the global game is truly going to develop.


I don't know where you've gotten the idea that the plan is for less T1 v T2 tests. If T1 (primarily the 6 Nations) are unwilling to integrate outsiders into their competitions there is nothing World Rugby can really do. Italy broke through at the beginning of the pro era when there was a smaller gap between T1 and T2, Argentina was always a T1 nations in everything but name, Japan was a strategic target with the world cup on the horizon and their deep rugby roots. Can we really say the same thing about other T2 nations? We also have a few more options now in T2 and none that really stick out like the others i mentioned so is it fair to favour one over the other. So the only other solution is to raise the standards of T2 by establishing a better fixture list vs other high level T2 nations whilst still leaving room to play against T1 nations.

I agree that there still needs to be regional involvement, however, looking at Hong Kong as an example, playing against Japan hasn't really developed much interest and neither does it improve their standard of play. So if Hong Kong had a goal where if they win their regional tournament they could break into the T2 world league that would give the players and the union a lot more motivation to improve. Have T2/T3 regional tournaments ever really had appeal anyway?

The only way to truly grow the global game IMO is for more T2 nations to become T1 capable on the field and off the field. Then we can break the glass ceiling, grow the world cup and further finance the rest of the world. It will have to be without help from T1 though...

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 08:52

Namibia can't really blame anyone outside of Namibia for their lack of success. There are comparable rugby unions in South Africa (Mpumulanga Pumas, Griquas) that have professional structures in place. Namibia should emulate those unions. When Namibia competes in South Africa's provincial competitions they are the worst team. They lost
to Mpumulanga Pumas by 100 points last year. Playing a team that is much better than you isn't going to make you as good as your opposition. If the desire isn't there in Namibia to build a professional team then there's not much World Rugby can do about it.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 19:00

thatrugbyguy wrote:Doing something simple as, you know, advertising that T2/3 games are on from WR would help things.

RugbyLiebe wrote:Captain Obvious has never been a guest in World Rugby headquarters.

Edit: I think it is really time, that we take this more to Social Media. Post on Facebook, Twitter etc. The more we do that, the more likely this bullshit is going to change.
Imagine FIFA would promote a private organized tournament ahead of any of their offical competitions...

thatrugbyguy wrote:With the exception of the occasional video about some developing country, it's shocking to me how little they go about promoting things. We've got the REC coming up and you wouldn't know it was on unless you were already familiar with its scheduling. Like, it take 2 mins to write something on Facebook or Twitter.


So after two days of campaigning/trolling on social media we managed today to see @WorldRugby tweeting their articles on Romania and Portugal as well as @WorldRugby_ES retweeting Spanish squad from @ferugby... :roll:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby welshdragon2000 » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 21:39

Armchair Fan wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Doing something simple as, you know, advertising that T2/3 games are on from WR would help things.

RugbyLiebe wrote:Captain Obvious has never been a guest in World Rugby headquarters.

Edit: I think it is really time, that we take this more to Social Media. Post on Facebook, Twitter etc. The more we do that, the more likely this bullshit is going to change.
Imagine FIFA would promote a private organized tournament ahead of any of their offical competitions...

thatrugbyguy wrote:With the exception of the occasional video about some developing country, it's shocking to me how little they go about promoting things. We've got the REC coming up and you wouldn't know it was on unless you were already familiar with its scheduling. Like, it take 2 mins to write something on Facebook or Twitter.


So after two days of campaigning/trolling on social media we managed today to see @WorldRugby tweeting their articles on Romania and Portugal as well as @WorldRugby_ES retweeting Spanish squad from @ferugby... :roll:


Good job! I think if we don’t make noise then world rugby just won’t change. It’s up to us to be a thorn in their side to make sure they are promoting the GLOBAL game and not simply the cartel game

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 08:19

ihateblazers wrote:
Edgar wrote:Here is an article which basically demonstrates everything that is wrong with international rugby. In nobody's imagination could Namibia, Canada and Japan be regarded as "emerging" rugby nations. They are three of its older members and the former pair were certainly better half a century ago than they are today. Similarly, Georgia appears to have stagnated, having hit ceiling level in the second tier competition it is involved in.

World Rugby's solution: To create an even bigger second tier competition. PNC, through its various incarnations, has proved an unqualified failure in terms of raising standards. 2nd tier nations need to be playing more regularly against 1st tier teams in order to improve. This is what brought Argentina up to speed, and Japan is now showing the benefits of increased exposure to the top level as well.

This latest plan looks to be a cop-out in similar vein, designed primarily to relieve the first tier of the "burden" of having to meet second tier opposition, after attempts to integrate them via an annual World League foundered on ultra-conservatism. The result will inevitably be an even more pronounced division between the first and second tiers.

The other concern is it may also become the primary focus of teams like Namibia, to the detriment of regional competition. We saw last year how Africa's second strongest nation did not compete with its neighbors, while traipsing off to participate in various international tournaments around the globe. & Japan have not been playing in Asia lately either. But regional competition must remain the priority for these teams if the global game is truly going to develop.


I don't know where you've gotten the idea that the plan is for less T1 v T2 tests. If T1 (primarily the 6 Nations) are unwilling to integrate outsiders into their competitions there is nothing World Rugby can really do. Italy broke through at the beginning of the pro era when there was a smaller gap between T1 and T2, Argentina was always a T1 nations in everything but name, Japan was a strategic target with the world cup on the horizon and their deep rugby roots. Can we really say the same thing about other T2 nations? We also have a few more options now in T2 and none that really stick out like the others i mentioned so is it fair to favour one over the other. So the only other solution is to raise the standards of T2 by establishing a better fixture list vs other high level T2 nations whilst still leaving room to play against T1 nations.

I agree that there still needs to be regional involvement, however, looking at Hong Kong as an example, playing against Japan hasn't really developed much interest and neither does it improve their standard of play. So if Hong Kong had a goal where if they win their regional tournament they could break into the T2 world league that would give the players and the union a lot more motivation to improve. Have T2/T3 regional tournaments ever really had appeal anyway?

The only way to truly grow the global game IMO is for more T2 nations to become T1 capable on the field and off the field. Then we can break the glass ceiling, grow the world cup and further finance the rest of the world. It will have to be without help from T1 though...


I'm not sure where you got the idea I thought there was going to be a reduction of T1 v T2 tests, because that's not what I wrote. My comment about this being a cop-out for Tier 1 nations refers to the fact it is being suggested in lieu of an earlier proposal to increase T1 v T2 fixtures through an integrated league. & increased exposure to first tier rugby most certainly helped teams like Italy and Argentina along. Both were playing regularly against Tier 1 opponents before joining the 6 Nations and Rugby Championship - precisely to bring them up to speed. The powers-that-be fully understood this was key to their development.

As for Hong Kong, they have very limited resources and still seem mostly reliant on a European community that is only 20,000 or so strong. Nevertheless, they remain the second best nation in Asia and that is undoubtedly due in part to their long association with Japan. Other examples of similar relationships are Uruguay and Namibia with Argentina and SA respectively. Given their relatively minor player stocks it is unlikely they would be World Cup regulars were it not for their close association with regional giants.

Even if you look back at the evolution of France and the Wallabies you find this came about as a result of their involvement in the 5 Nations and Bledisloe Cup, respectively. Obviously there are many factors at play, not just the need for an increase in T1 v T2 tests. But that is clearly among the foremost. & all I'm saying is that the proposed 2nd division international championship is not going to close the gap between the two tiers; it will simply entrench the participants at that level and ensure the gap remains.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 09:14

Edgar wrote:Here is an article which basically demonstrates everything that is wrong with international rugby. In nobody's imagination could Namibia, Canada and Japan be regarded as "emerging" rugby nations. They are three of its older members and the former pair were certainly better half a century ago than they are today. Similarly, Georgia appears to have stagnated, having hit ceiling level in the second tier competition it is involved in.

World Rugby's solution: To create an even bigger second tier competition. PNC, through its various incarnations, has proved an unqualified failure in terms of raising standards. 2nd tier nations need to be playing more regularly against 1st tier teams in order to improve. This is what brought Argentina up to speed, and Japan is now showing the benefits of increased exposure to the top level as well.

This latest plan looks to be a cop-out in similar vein, designed primarily to relieve the first tier of the "burden" of having to meet second tier opposition, after attempts to integrate them via an annual World League foundered on ultra-conservatism. The result will inevitably be an even more pronounced division between the first and second tiers.

The other concern is it may also become the primary focus of teams like Namibia, to the detriment of regional competition. We saw last year how Africa's second strongest nation did not compete with its neighbors, while traipsing off to participate in various international tournaments around the globe. & Japan have not been playing in Asia lately either. But regional competition must remain the priority for these teams if the global game is truly going to develop.


The only logic behind it is if they are getting a decent TV deal out of such a thing. If that's the case then the competition isn't a bad idea.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 14:46

Somebody woke up in World Rugby social media area. Retweeted Rugby Europe content, then shared the result of first REC game:
https://twitter.com/WorldRugby/status/1 ... 9504838656

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 15:51

thatrugbyguy wrote:The only logic behind it is if they are getting a decent TV deal out of such a thing. If that's the case then the competition isn't a bad idea.


Sure, I'm not saying I'm against it either, but it's going to take a lot of funding just to break even. The PNC has basically been a case of teams travelling thousands of kilometers to play in front of hundreds of spectators, as often as not. I've suggested myself replacing the Nations Cup with a Confederations Cup in which the winners of the ARC, ENC, African championships and a combined Asia-Pacific 6 Nations meet annually. Perhaps they could take the top two from each and make it an 8-team, 2-pool event. That not only ensures a continued emphasis on regional competitions but actually promotes it.

What does concern me, however, is that this is all they appear to have planned for the second tier, despite talk of an expanded World Cup in 2027 and staging the event in the US in 2031. This is simply not a level playing field and, until fundamental changes are made to the international program, all we're going to be seeing is an endless procession of NZ, SA, Australia, England & France battling it out in the finals. & if new teams don't start to come through to really challenge the status quo (at a rate of more than one every few decades), the tournament will have become a borefest by the time it rocks up to America.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Sun, 02 Feb 2020, 14:12

Edgar wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:I don't know where you've gotten the idea that the plan is for less T1 v T2 tests. If T1 (primarily the 6 Nations) are unwilling to integrate outsiders into their competitions there is nothing World Rugby can really do. Italy broke through at the beginning of the pro era when there was a smaller gap between T1 and T2, Argentina was always a T1 nations in everything but name, Japan was a strategic target with the world cup on the horizon and their deep rugby roots. Can we really say the same thing about other T2 nations? We also have a few more options now in T2 and none that really stick out like the others i mentioned so is it fair to favour one over the other. So the only other solution is to raise the standards of T2 by establishing a better fixture list vs other high level T2 nations whilst still leaving room to play against T1 nations.

I agree that there still needs to be regional involvement, however, looking at Hong Kong as an example, playing against Japan hasn't really developed much interest and neither does it improve their standard of play. So if Hong Kong had a goal where if they win their regional tournament they could break into the T2 world league that would give the players and the union a lot more motivation to improve. Have T2/T3 regional tournaments ever really had appeal anyway?

The only way to truly grow the global game IMO is for more T2 nations to become T1 capable on the field and off the field. Then we can break the glass ceiling, grow the world cup and further finance the rest of the world. It will have to be without help from T1 though...


I'm not sure where you got the idea I thought there was going to be a reduction of T1 v T2 tests, because that's not what I wrote. My comment about this being a cop-out for Tier 1 nations refers to the fact it is being suggested in lieu of an earlier proposal to increase T1 v T2 fixtures through an integrated league. & increased exposure to first tier rugby most certainly helped teams like Italy and Argentina along. Both were playing regularly against Tier 1 opponents before joining the 6 Nations and Rugby Championship - precisely to bring them up to speed. The powers-that-be fully understood this was key to their development.

As for Hong Kong, they have very limited resources and still seem mostly reliant on a European community that is only 20,000 or so strong. Nevertheless, they remain the second best nation in Asia and that is undoubtedly due in part to their long association with Japan. Other examples of similar relationships are Uruguay and Namibia with Argentina and SA respectively. Given their relatively minor player stocks it is unlikely they would be World Cup regulars were it not for their close association with regional giants.

Even if you look back at the evolution of France and the Wallabies you find this came about as a result of their involvement in the 5 Nations and Bledisloe Cup, respectively. Obviously there are many factors at play, not just the need for an increase in T1 v T2 tests. But that is clearly among the foremost. & all I'm saying is that the proposed 2nd division international championship is not going to close the gap between the two tiers; it will simply entrench the participants at that level and ensure the gap remains.


What else can World Rugby realistically do? The World League was shot down by the 6 nation's and promotion and relegation will not happen. We have more T1 vs T2 tests in July and November which it is still not enough but we are locked into this agreement until the 2031 world cup.

World rugby needs to think outside the box to grow global markets and raise the level of T2 through other means because there is no breaking the home nations cartel. If T1 needs T2 to be at their level commercially and in terms of performance then all that can be done is to look at different competition formats to raise them.

The PNC may have been a bit shit but it's always overlapped the mid year window. It seems this proposal would still leave the July and November windows open for T1 tests whilst taking advantage of the competition windows which currently do not amount to much for T2 or T3. I'm not sure how this would be a bad thing for T2 to be honest.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 02 Feb 2020, 14:28

Edgar wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:The only logic behind it is if they are getting a decent TV deal out of such a thing. If that's the case then the competition isn't a bad idea.


Sure, I'm not saying I'm against it either, but it's going to take a lot of funding just to break even. The PNC has basically been a case of teams travelling thousands of kilometers to play in front of hundreds of spectators, as often as not. I've suggested myself replacing the Nations Cup with a Confederations Cup in which the winners of the ARC, ENC, African championships and a combined Asia-Pacific 6 Nations meet annually. Perhaps they could take the top two from each and make it an 8-team, 2-pool event. That not only ensures a continued emphasis on regional competitions but actually promotes it.

What does concern me, however, is that this is all they appear to have planned for the second tier, despite talk of an expanded World Cup in 2027 and staging the event in the US in 2031. This is simply not a level playing field and, until fundamental changes are made to the international program, all we're going to be seeing is an endless procession of NZ, SA, Australia, England & France battling it out in the finals. & if new teams don't start to come through to really challenge the status quo (at a rate of more than one every few decades), the tournament will have become a borefest by the time it rocks up to America.


Well, Japan is the first to break the mould, so that’s a start. I looked at what the Russians are trying to do with their match against Spain at the Sochi Stadium yesterday as an example of what needs to happen. If WR want to invest in a T2 competition, it has to be treated as if it’s a T1 event. That means playing in quality stadiums, doing marketing and getting a decent TV deal. The game in Sochi got 10-15 times more people than it normally would because there was concerted effort to entice people to watch it. There may have only been about 7-8000 people, but next year that could be doubled with the same effort. When you see a 15-16,000 people in Spain or Uruguay for a World Cup qualifier, or 60,000 in Chicago for a November test, you know there’s enough of an audience willing to go to a game in these T2 nation if there’s incentive to. Things like the Nations Cup are fine, but they don’t do a lot for the sports profile.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Mon, 03 Feb 2020, 08:28

What else can World Rugby realistically do?


Stand up to the 6 Nations :thumbup: 8-)

My concern here is not only with the failure of World Rugby to integrate first and second tier rugby, but equally with the possibility of some meaningless second tier tournament taking the emphasis away from regional competition, and thereby stifling the development of the third tier. If second tier are able to participate in such a tournament, in addition to their own regional tournaments, and still find room for the increased number of tier 1 tests they've been pleading for, then certainly no harm will come of it. But if they make it the priority at the expense of their own regional competitions, that will be a step backward for global rugby, not forward. By the same token, if tier 1 tests aren't increased, the proposed 2nd division tournament is only going to benefit the weaker teams - and perhaps drag down the standard of the stronger ones.

It's almost as though the first tier nations are quite happy with the status quo, whereby they get to remain at the top, their own competitions are high profile, and there are just enough competitive easybeats to make up the numbers for a World Cup - upon whose stage the first tier nations themselves will inevitably shine :D I think that actually works for them. It's an elitist mentality that has its roots in colonialsm, and remember also that half of the foundation members are small nation unions which might struggle to survive in a genuinely competitive environment. A Ghandi-like show of disobedience may be the only way to really get through to them. :roll:

From the Samoan Observer:

The Samoa Rugby Union (S.R.U.) is hoping for more fixtures for the Manu Samoa as a result of their World Rugby workshop in London last month.

S.R.U. Vice-Chairman, Seumanu Douglas Ngau Chun, and Financial Controller/acting High Performance General Manager, Yona Tielu, attended the workshop along with high performance and coaching personnel from 11 other Tier 2 rugby nations.

They held discussions on creating a “meaningful and sustainable competition model for unions outside of the Six Nations and The Rugby Championship that accelerates the competitiveness of the global game,” according to a press release from World Rugby.

“We believe the attendees of the two day workshop left London with the understanding that we supported a model that benefits the emerging nations in an international fixture calendar and also links us to a clear pathway from regional tournaments in to a high performance global competition," Seumanu said.

“We are now waiting for the World Rugby Executive Committee and Council in finalizing the new global competition model which we hope will kick-off in 2021.”

The workshop outcomes will be presented to the World Rugby Regional Rugby Committee and Executive Committees in March, and after consultation a preferred model will be considered by the World Rugby Council in May.

“When we attended the meeting our goal was to make sure we have a clear pathway for our Manu Samoa to prepare and have quality fixtures leading to RWC2023,” Seumanu said.

S.R.U. want to increase the amount of Manu Samoa fixtures per year from around 6-8 to 10-15.

The Manu played 23 tests between the 2015 and 2019 World Cups to the All Blacks’ 47, illustrating the difference in fixtures for Tier 1 and 2 nations.

“The proposed options agreed upon will increase fixtures for our Manu Samoa and also have more opportunity to play with the top 12 teams of the World and improve our ranking,” Seumanu said.

“The other area we also put forward was commercial sustainability of such tournaments which was accepted by World Rugby, that we don’t have a fair playing field in terms of corporate companies but they were willing to help emerging nations in securing potential revenue to assist with the new proposed global competition.”

Representatives from each World Rugby region, SANZAAR, Six Nations and the International Rugby Players Association were also present at the workshop, however discussions were focused purely on empowering emerging nations and their preparations for the next World Cup.

https://www.samoaobserver.ws/category/s ... 8-VET0xOJ0

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 04:00

Edgar wrote:
What else can World Rugby realistically do?


Stand up to the 6 Nations :thumbup: 8-)

My concern here is not only with the failure of World Rugby to integrate first and second tier rugby, but equally with the possibility of some meaningless second tier tournament taking the emphasis away from regional competition, and thereby stifling the development of the third tier. If second tier are able to participate in such a tournament, in addition to their own regional tournaments, and still find room for the increased number of tier 1 tests they've been pleading for, then certainly no harm will come of it. But if they make it the priority at the expense of their own regional competitions, that will be a step backward for global rugby, not forward. By the same token, if tier 1 tests aren't increased, the proposed 2nd division tournament is only going to benefit the weaker teams - and perhaps drag down the standard of the stronger ones.

It's almost as though the first tier nations are quite happy with the status quo, whereby they get to remain at the top, their own competitions are high profile, and there are just enough competitive easybeats to make up the numbers for a World Cup - upon whose stage the first tier nations themselves will inevitably shine :D I think that actually works for them. It's an elitist mentality that has its roots in colonialsm, and remember also that half of the foundation members are small nation unions which might struggle to survive in a genuinely competitive environment. A Ghandi-like show of disobedience may be the only way to really get through to them. :roll:


As if standing up to the 6 Nations is even possible. I wish it could happen but it won't. It is not the failure of World Rugby, T1 runs the show.

Why do we have to have annual regional tournaments anyway? This is only a thing in rugby and simply copies the 6 Nations and Tri nations. For T3 is it really such a big development that they play 3-5 fixtures a year? What difference would it make if top T2's aren't there? T2/T3 Regional competitions are not commercially successful and never will be until rugby is a global mainstream sport. No one cares about these regional tournaments because they don't even know the sport exists. We need to look at holistic global growth.

The T2 nations, who we need to start beating T1 regularly are spinning their wheels with their current competitions and test schedules. More T1vT2 tests will not happen until at least 2032. I don't see how it wouldn't be good for the development of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan if they were playing in a regular tournament (as they do not have one now), and Georgia, Spain,Romania/Russia, Uruguay, USA were playing against the other top T2's. With promotion and relegation to the lower tier. If it could be a commercial success then that would be brilliant.

Completely agree with your last point but we have to be realistic, nothing will change. So the only way is to improve T2 through other means. If we have to work with the status quo then the only way to achieve global growth is to grow the Rugby World Cup by improving T2 teams and growing markets.

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