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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 06:26

ihateblazers wrote:
Edgar wrote:
What else can World Rugby realistically do?


Stand up to the 6 Nations :thumbup: 8-)

My concern here is not only with the failure of World Rugby to integrate first and second tier rugby, but equally with the possibility of some meaningless second tier tournament taking the emphasis away from regional competition, and thereby stifling the development of the third tier. If second tier are able to participate in such a tournament, in addition to their own regional tournaments, and still find room for the increased number of tier 1 tests they've been pleading for, then certainly no harm will come of it. But if they make it the priority at the expense of their own regional competitions, that will be a step backward for global rugby, not forward. By the same token, if tier 1 tests aren't increased, the proposed 2nd division tournament is only going to benefit the weaker teams - and perhaps drag down the standard of the stronger ones.

It's almost as though the first tier nations are quite happy with the status quo, whereby they get to remain at the top, their own competitions are high profile, and there are just enough competitive easybeats to make up the numbers for a World Cup - upon whose stage the first tier nations themselves will inevitably shine :D I think that actually works for them. It's an elitist mentality that has its roots in colonialsm, and remember also that half of the foundation members are small nation unions which might struggle to survive in a genuinely competitive environment. A Ghandi-like show of disobedience may be the only way to really get through to them. :roll:


As if standing up to the 6 Nations is even possible. I wish it could happen but it won't. It is not the failure of World Rugby, T1 runs the show.

Why do we have to have annual regional tournaments anyway? This is only a thing in rugby and simply copies the 6 Nations and Tri nations. For T3 is it really such a big development that they play 3-5 fixtures a year? What difference would it make if top T2's aren't there? T2/T3 Regional competitions are not commercially successful and never will be until rugby is a global mainstream sport. No one cares about these regional tournaments because they don't even know the sport exists. We need to look at holistic global growth.

The T2 nations, who we need to start beating T1 regularly are spinning their wheels with their current competitions and test schedules. More T1vT2 tests will not happen until at least 2032. I don't see how it wouldn't be good for the development of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan if they were playing in a regular tournament (as they do not have one now), and Georgia, Spain,Romania/Russia, Uruguay, USA were playing against the other top T2's. With promotion and relegation to the lower tier. If it could be a commercial success then that would be brilliant.

Completely agree with your last point but we have to be realistic, nothing will change. So the only way is to improve T2 through other means. If we have to work with the status quo then the only way to achieve global growth is to grow the Rugby World Cup by improving T2 teams and growing markets.


Which is why I think WR missed a trick with the whole Nations Championship structure. It's been suggested before but they could have opted to expand the divisions by 4 each from 12 to 16 and taken the Euro League Basketball route of making certain Union permanent. That way the T1's don't have to worry about relegation and the T2's will get more access.

They could have run it over two years across two pools of 8 teams playing with each team playing their pool opponents twice for 14 games and each team from the corresponding pool for a total of 22 games. This would have then allowed WR to integrate both the 6N's and an expanded RC into the structure while providing the best four T2 sides with 22 high quality games.

In the November of the 2nd year Top 8 play in the Cup and while the bottom 8 play in the Shield with the bottom two teams being relegated. Simples.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 08:56

Working Class Rugger wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:
Edgar wrote:
What else can World Rugby realistically do?


Stand up to the 6 Nations :thumbup: 8-)

My concern here is not only with the failure of World Rugby to integrate first and second tier rugby, but equally with the possibility of some meaningless second tier tournament taking the emphasis away from regional competition, and thereby stifling the development of the third tier. If second tier are able to participate in such a tournament, in addition to their own regional tournaments, and still find room for the increased number of tier 1 tests they've been pleading for, then certainly no harm will come of it. But if they make it the priority at the expense of their own regional competitions, that will be a step backward for global rugby, not forward. By the same token, if tier 1 tests aren't increased, the proposed 2nd division tournament is only going to benefit the weaker teams - and perhaps drag down the standard of the stronger ones.

It's almost as though the first tier nations are quite happy with the status quo, whereby they get to remain at the top, their own competitions are high profile, and there are just enough competitive easybeats to make up the numbers for a World Cup - upon whose stage the first tier nations themselves will inevitably shine :D I think that actually works for them. It's an elitist mentality that has its roots in colonialsm, and remember also that half of the foundation members are small nation unions which might struggle to survive in a genuinely competitive environment. A Ghandi-like show of disobedience may be the only way to really get through to them. :roll:


As if standing up to the 6 Nations is even possible. I wish it could happen but it won't. It is not the failure of World Rugby, T1 runs the show.

Why do we have to have annual regional tournaments anyway? This is only a thing in rugby and simply copies the 6 Nations and Tri nations. For T3 is it really such a big development that they play 3-5 fixtures a year? What difference would it make if top T2's aren't there? T2/T3 Regional competitions are not commercially successful and never will be until rugby is a global mainstream sport. No one cares about these regional tournaments because they don't even know the sport exists. We need to look at holistic global growth.

The T2 nations, who we need to start beating T1 regularly are spinning their wheels with their current competitions and test schedules. More T1vT2 tests will not happen until at least 2032. I don't see how it wouldn't be good for the development of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan if they were playing in a regular tournament (as they do not have one now), and Georgia, Spain,Romania/Russia, Uruguay, USA were playing against the other top T2's. With promotion and relegation to the lower tier. If it could be a commercial success then that would be brilliant.

Completely agree with your last point but we have to be realistic, nothing will change. So the only way is to improve T2 through other means. If we have to work with the status quo then the only way to achieve global growth is to grow the Rugby World Cup by improving T2 teams and growing markets.


Which is why I think WR missed a trick with the whole Nations Championship structure. It's been suggested before but they could have opted to expand the divisions by 4 each from 12 to 16 and taken the Euro League Basketball route of making certain Union permanent. That way the T1's don't have to worry about relegation and the T2's will get more access.

They could have run it over two years across two pools of 8 teams playing with each team playing their pool opponents twice for 14 games and each team from the corresponding pool for a total of 22 games. This would have then allowed WR to integrate both the 6N's and an expanded RC into the structure while providing the best four T2 sides with 22 high quality games.

In the November of the 2nd year Top 8 play in the Cup and while the bottom 8 play in the Shield with the bottom two teams being relegated. Simples.


Yes, standing up to them is always possible. The World Cup has become World Rugby's major money-spinner and they need the second tier to make up the numbers. That's an awfully big bargaining chip. It's simply a case of having a spine. Just as World Rugby could have stood up to the 6 Nations if it had really, really wanted to. It wasn't a case of missing a trick at all. They simply backed down.

Why the regional tournaments? Because that's what develops rugby in the third tier nations, obviously, and they need the second tier nations to improve their standards. That's a good definition of the holistic approach. It's hardly unique to rugby either. In fact, I can't think of a single mainstream global sport that doesn't have regional championships. You seem to be looking at this solely through the tier 2 lense and what's beneficial to them. & how do you measure success? T2 vs T3 tests may not be massive drawcards, but they are certainly vital in terms bringing the latter up to speed.

Meanwhile, nice story about GIR in India. With China qualifying for the Olympics women's 7s and getting a GRR franchise, the world's two most populous nations (by some distance) may soon be banging on the door of World Cup qualification . . . https://www.asiarugby.com/2020/02/06/ru ... nked-no-1/

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 09:14

Edgar wrote:
ihateblazers wrote:
As if standing up to the 6 Nations is even possible. I wish it could happen but it won't. It is not the failure of World Rugby, T1 runs the show.

Why do we have to have annual regional tournaments anyway? This is only a thing in rugby and simply copies the 6 Nations and Tri nations. For T3 is it really such a big development that they play 3-5 fixtures a year? What difference would it make if top T2's aren't there? T2/T3 Regional competitions are not commercially successful and never will be until rugby is a global mainstream sport. No one cares about these regional tournaments because they don't even know the sport exists. We need to look at holistic global growth.

The T2 nations, who we need to start beating T1 regularly are spinning their wheels with their current competitions and test schedules. More T1vT2 tests will not happen until at least 2032. I don't see how it wouldn't be good for the development of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Japan if they were playing in a regular tournament (as they do not have one now), and Georgia, Spain,Romania/Russia, Uruguay, USA were playing against the other top T2's. With promotion and relegation to the lower tier. If it could be a commercial success then that would be brilliant.

Completely agree with your last point but we have to be realistic, nothing will change. So the only way is to improve T2 through other means. If we have to work with the status quo then the only way to achieve global growth is to grow the Rugby World Cup by improving T2 teams and growing markets.


Yes, standing up to them is always possible. The World Cup has become World Rugby's major money-spinner and they need the second tier to make up the numbers. That's an awfully big bargaining chip. It's simply a case of having a spine. Just as World Rugby could have stood up to the 6 Nations if it had really, really wanted to. It wasn't a case of missing a trick at all. They simply backed down.

Why the regional tournaments? Because that's what develops rugby in the third tier nations, obviously, and they need the second tier nations to improve their standards. That's a good definition of the holistic approach. It's hardly unique to rugby either. In fact, I can't think of a single mainstream global sport that doesn't have regional championships. You seem to be looking at this solely through the tier 2 lense and what's beneficial to them. & how do you measure success? T2 vs T3 tests may not be massive drawcards, but they are certainly vital in terms bringing the latter up to speed.

Meanwhile, nice story about GIR in India. With China qualifying for the Olympics women's 7s and getting a GRR franchise, the world's two most populous nations (by some distance) may soon be banging on the door of World Cup qualification . . . https://www.asiarugby.com/2020/02/06/ru ... nked-no-1/


World cup's don't mean anything to T1, it's just bragging rights to be called world champions. They don't really see it as a great sporting event to grow the game in their country. A World cup with T1 plus Japan (I don't see them standing up for T2) would probably be just as successful commercially as basically all the broadcasting revenue comes from T1 markets and they could easily just compete in the 6N and RC as that is where their money is made which is all they care about. The only way I could see change happening is if SANZAAR (and possibly France, if they broke ranks), stood up against the Home Nations with T2 and the rest of the world. They are already kind doing it but only with their own interests at heart.

I look at growth as more people knowing about the game and more people playing the sport around the world. I'm looking at it from the T2 point of view because we need T2 to be strong to grow the game. Global growth will accelerate development of T3. Not a few international fixtures here or there. That is what I mean by holistic approach. Ideally, yes we would have a fully integrated international system with T1 leading the way. But we don't, and we have to work with what we have and be pragmatic. Realpolitik.

Only rugby plays regional championships annually. Soccer doesn't, Ice hockey doesn't, basketball doesn't, handball doesn't, field hockey doesn't, the list goes on.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 10:01

ihateblazers wrote:Only rugby plays regional championships annually. Soccer doesn't, Ice hockey doesn't, basketball doesn't, handball doesn't, field hockey doesn't, the list goes on.


Handball plays the World Cup in one year and in the other the Euros.
Ice-hockey has no Euro, but all of their multi-divisional World Cups every year.
Basketball, Volleyball and Hockey have their Euro every 2 years and the World Cup every 4 with the 4th year being filled with the Olympics, if I am not wrong.

So one could make a point, that soccer is the only sport which doesn't have annual championship (wether Euro or World Cup).
On the other hand, one could argue that the best teams in Rugby NEVER play in a regional championship. They tend to play in private tournaments. That's a big difference.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 16:17

More or less true. Most sports have real qualifiers for both world and regional qualifiers. The difference lies here.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 16:43

It's true soccer doesn't have annual regional championships, but there is always something going on, whether it be qualification for those championships, or for the World Cup itself, and the parent code's World Cup qualification process is all-embracing and very comprehensive.

Perhaps rugby could do the same. Regardless, what is for sure is that rugby is a team-sport which, more than most others, requires regular match-practice in order to develop combinations and attain maximum standards - and those standards will be determined largely by the level of competition.

So again my main concern with the proposed Tier 2 tournament is that it could create a disconnect with regional championships and Tier 3 teams comparable to the one which already exists between 1st tier nations and the rest. & that is what really needs to be addressed if the global game is to move forward.

It is not asking for a whole lot. Promotion-relegation to and from those elite competitions, especially if done in the most advantageous way possible for the incumbents, is surely a far preferable option to the Tier 1 Nations than a complete overhaul of the international calendar.

Meanwhile, Lions to play a home test next year in Scotland. Would be great if it were against Japan or Fiji. https://www.ruck.co.uk/british-irish-li ... ment-16159

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Canalina » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 05:48

To note that now there's a more proper European Championship in rugby league, on annual base I think. Only nation missing is England, and there are relegations/promotions between the levels, so one of the home unions could be relegated. And the main level is composed by six nations, so it's like they were sending a message: "see? In league we permit relegation and promotion between Six Nations and the lower levels..."

https://www.rlef.eu.com/index.php/artic ... nd-in-2020

A: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy, Spain

B: Serbia, Russia, Greece

C: Germany, Norway, Ukraine

D: Czech, Malta, Netherlands, Turkey

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 07:09

Canalina wrote:To note that now there's a more proper European Championship in rugby league, on annual base I think. Only nation missing is England, and there are relegations/promotions between the levels, so one of the home unions could be relegated. And the main level is composed by six nations, so it's like they were sending a message: "see? In league we permit relegation and promotion between Six Nations and the lower levels..."

https://www.rlef.eu.com/index.php/artic ... nd-in-2020

A: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy, Spain

B: Serbia, Russia, Greece

C: Germany, Norway, Ukraine

D: Czech, Malta, Netherlands, Turkey


The Six Nations will take absolutely no notice of this. Most of these games get about 200 supporters.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 17:16

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:To note that now there's a more proper European Championship in rugby league, on annual base I think. Only nation missing is England, and there are relegations/promotions between the levels, so one of the home unions could be relegated. And the main level is composed by six nations, so it's like they were sending a message: "see? In league we permit relegation and promotion between Six Nations and the lower levels..."

https://www.rlef.eu.com/index.php/artic ... nd-in-2020

A: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy, Spain

B: Serbia, Russia, Greece

C: Germany, Norway, Ukraine

D: Czech, Malta, Netherlands, Turkey


The Six Nations will take absolutely no notice of this. Most of these games get about 200 supporters.

I dont think they are targeting the 6N. They are targeting REIC countries.

Think you are a Serbian sponsor. Both Union and League are obscure anyway. But in League you can say you are in the top level. And it is not that dificult to reach.

Of course this means very little because the best would be to put your hope on sevens (Olympic). But if you dont have much hope, League is clearly an easier way to show results. Specialy when the sponsor doesnt care about viewers and only want to use the numbers in a random presentation of social impact or whatever. That happens.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 20:03

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:To note that now there's a more proper European Championship in rugby league, on annual base I think. Only nation missing is England, and there are relegations/promotions between the levels, so one of the home unions could be relegated. And the main level is composed by six nations, so it's like they were sending a message: "see? In league we permit relegation and promotion between Six Nations and the lower levels..."

https://www.rlef.eu.com/index.php/artic ... nd-in-2020

A: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy, Spain

B: Serbia, Russia, Greece

C: Germany, Norway, Ukraine

D: Czech, Malta, Netherlands, Turkey


The Six Nations will take absolutely no notice of this. Most of these games get about 200 supporters.

I dont think they are targeting the 6N. They are targeting REIC countries.

Think you are a Serbian sponsor. Both Union and League are obscure anyway. But in League you can say you are in the top level. And it is not that dificult to reach.

Of course this means very little because the best would be to put your hope on sevens (Olympic). But if you dont have much hope, League is clearly an easier way to show results. Specialy when the sponsor doesnt care about viewers and only want to use the numbers in a random presentation of social impact or whatever. That happens.


Union should sit back and let league develop rugby in the Balkans. Once it has grown to be quite popular and competitive, union can convert those countries to union. This has already happened to Russia and Georgia, where rugby league was played until quite recently.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 20:24

Dear Chester-Donnelly, your info about RL in RUS | GEO is too flawed:
Union never hijacked League in those territories
Vice versa, indeed and for very short spell

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 21:49

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:Dear Chester-Donnelly, your info about RL in RUS | GEO is too flawed:
Union never hijacked League in those territories
Vice versa, indeed and for very short spell


Russia used to play rugby league. They used to enter teams in the Challenge Cup. I'm not saying union hijacked league, but it is easier to to convert league teams to union than it is to start rugby clubs from nothing.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Scoob » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 22:58

You get the feeling that if there was one day left on this planet earth,that the top nations would still be argueing over money issues and how it is allocated about by world rugby.
Gone are the days of giving and helping each other out,replaced by greed and me values and what corporate heads can get there monthly bonuses.
Someone did a comparison of what the big nations unions earned from the world cup compared to the tier 2 nations. Its MASSIVE. The only way this can be changed is new blood at the world rugby headquarters,and chances of that happening is zilch.
Beaumont is not the answer either. He may not be Six nations and SANZAAR most liked person,they just dislike him less than Pichot and onyone else. OK Pichot may have been outspoken and he was hated by 6 nations for shaking things up,which hadnt happened since game went pro. He successfully raised the elegibility to 5 years residency which went down like a lead balloon at the 6 nations unions.
There is signs things are changing but its happening at a snails pace that it might take another 50 years before we see anything meaningful and by that stage rugby might be played in Bolivia only as global sea levels rise ;)

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 23:57

victorsra wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:How about 8-team knockout tournaments in November?


November tests = money for 6N. They won't give up from hosting 3 matches each.

When played in November, the European teams would host their matches.
When played in July, the non-European teams would host their matches.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 07 Feb 2020, 23:59

ihateblazers wrote: Only rugby plays regional championships annually. Soccer doesn't, Ice hockey doesn't, basketball doesn't, handball doesn't, field hockey doesn't, the list goes on.

Volleyball and field hockey have annual tournaments for national teams. They are controversial for sure.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 08 Feb 2020, 01:35

NaBUru38 wrote:
ihateblazers wrote: Only rugby plays regional championships annually. Soccer doesn't, Ice hockey doesn't, basketball doesn't, handball doesn't, field hockey doesn't, the list goes on.

Volleyball and field hockey have annual tournaments for national teams. They are controversial for sure.


Rhythmic Gymnastics European Championships is held annually.

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