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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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7
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Against
56
89%
 
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Mon, 04 May 2020, 17:22

You can finish 6 rounds with like 3 teams with 6 wins...

Firstly, there will be bonus point system in use,
and secondly, multi-para tie-breaking criteria

This will sort both 12-team tables down: World and Emerging

:::

WR will be gladly boasting that every point, try, gain metre counts
in globally mouth-watering grand-stand finish etc etc etc (trash!)

:oops:

:::

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 04 May 2020, 17:42

I know that, the bonus system may avoid a tie, but the situation of one invincible team not playing the title is realy bad for fans, media, sponsors... bad marketing.... it would mean loads of complains, damaging the competition's image.

You can have All Blacks, Springboks and Wallabies winning 6 matches in the first division, and you can have the same happening in the 2nd division with Fiji, Samoa, Tonga winning 6 matches... this is not unlikely.

Anyway, I think it is better such system, because at least is would be an open one. But that's not what SJ/Egan suggested when talking that not all countries could be eligible for promotion.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 04 May 2020, 17:49

If 2 emerging nations pools of equal status is used in a cross pool format, it would work well to have the REC teams in one pool, and Uruguay, Brazil, Chile, Hong Kong, Samoa and Tonga in the other pool. The three European teams going east can play Hong Kong on the way to or from the South Pacific, with the other three going to South America.
It would help the format a lot if USA could play in the tier 1 tournament.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 04 May 2020, 17:58

You mean Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Uruguay, Canada and Namibia or Samoa, Tonga, Hong Kong, USA, Uruguay and Canada, for exemple.

You will have Fiji or USA. Both won't be absent together.

What will matter for this division is time zones. I believe crossing up to 5 different time zones for between those 3 matches is ok. More than this is madness.

5 is Halifax to Vancouver, Krasnoyarsk to Moscow or Samoa to Perth. Not good, but ok.

Most useful tool: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 04 May 2020, 18:32

Of course, you are right. Fiji or USA.

So east 3 teams will be Samoa, Tonga and either Hong Kong or Fiji.

West 3 will be Canada, Uruguay and either USA or Namibia.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 04 May 2020, 18:46

Yes.

This would mean for the 3rd division (with groups of 4, to have 2 July and 2 November matches + playoffs), for exemple:

Americas: Brazil, Chile, Colombia and Mexico;
Africa: Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe and Namibia/Tunisia;
Asia/Oceania: Korea, Malaysia, PNG and Hong Kong/Phillippines;
Europe: Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Poland;
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 04 May 2020, 20:37

Those regional divisions are really good. The European championship is a good format with home and away games.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 04 May 2020, 20:58

I'm considering the 3rd division would be inter-continental as well, to offer more matches to each team. There is no reason to make those teams play again teams they are already playing in their continental competitions. In Europe it might be logical, but not in the Americas.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 04 May 2020, 21:21

The regional divisions could be single round robin format, with the winner of each division playing a semi final and final in November. e.g. Brazil vs Namibia, Netherlands vs South Korea.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 04 May 2020, 22:27

There are important questions regarding the continental competitions:

Let's see:

Europe: the 2nd division will probably be the REC itself. The 3rd division would be the RET? For Europeans, a 3rd dvision with inter-continental matches (payed by WR) would mean more matches with different opponents....

Americas: Maybe only half of the ARC will be in the 2nd division. This means the bottom teams of the ARC would need to be mixed with the Americas Challenge bests. It would be important to keep the ARC, with the 3rd division being aditional matches;

Asia/Oceania: We don't know much, but there will be a mix of both continents.... it would be important to have a proper Asia-Pacific Championship distinct from the WR competition, to have an Americas-like scenario.

Africa: The 3rd division would be basically the Africa Cup elite, but if Namibia is in the 2nd division it would be also important to have different competitions.

In other words, the 3rd division teams will obviously need WR money to benefit from a world league. To use the current competitions as part of it brings no benefit for them.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 05 May 2020, 18:39

Based on World Rankings (I really don't have anything else to go on), it seems unlikely that there would be any Oceanian teams in the Asia-Pacific division (division 3). The Oceania teams should join the Asia Rugby Championship regional divisions at the bottom and work their way up.
No Asia Rugby Championship 2020 was played, but from the 2019 tournaments, I think the division tournaments should be arranged like this
Asia Rugby Championship: Hong Kong, South Korea, Malaysia.
Division 1: Philippines, Sri Lanka, Singapore, UAE.
Division 2: Taiwan, Kazakhstan, Thailand, China.
Division 3: West: Qatar, Lebanon, Jordan.
Division 3: South/Central: Pakistan, India, Uzbekistan.
Division 3: South-East: Indonesia, Guam, PNG, Cook Islands.
Division 4: South-East (West) New Caledonia, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Nauru.
Division 4: South-East (East) Tahiti, American Samoa, Niue.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Tue, 05 May 2020, 18:56

As Oceania Cup champions, PNG would probably earn a spot in a world league 3rd division.

IMO, Asia/Oceania must operate a regionalized system below the world league's 3rd division. Those countries need to play at least 1 home match every years. Without home matches (events), federations have less opportunities to develop. If there's no money for more than one/two travels every year, groups of 3 are the best solution always, with one home and one away match per team, plus a final.

Using that model with Japan and Fiji in TRC, Samoa, Tonga and HK in world's 2nd division, Asia/Oceania could have:

World League 3rd division/Asia-Pacific Championship: Korea, Malaysia, PNG*, Philippines
Division 1 East: Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand
Division 1 West: Sri Lanka, UAE, Kazakhstan
Division 2 East: China, Indonesia, Niue/Cook Islands*
Division 2 West: Qatar, Pakistan, India
Division 3 East: Guam, Solomon Islands, Nauru/Niue*
Division 3 West: Lebanon, Jordan, Uzbekistan
Division 4 East: Nauru/Cook Islands*, Tahiti...

*2019 Oceania Cup was: 1 PNG, 2 Niue, 3 Solomon Is, 4 Nauru. Cook and Tahiti withdrew... But we know Cook Islands would be the team to be there....
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Tue, 05 May 2020, 19:44

I can't see how all this could improve the rugby success: for the tier 3 teams it would be more or less the same, just with a different name ("World League level 2 african" instead of "Africa Cup level 2"; if people are not very interested in the second level of a continental cup I doubt they will be interested in the third or fourth level of a world league); for the tier 1 teams the risk is to transform the Six Nations and The Championship in a sort of qualifying pool to the autumnal play-off (what an outrageous destiny for the oldest and noblest tournament!) and to inflate the specialness of the World Cup; maybe just some tier 2 nations could bring some benefit from this league, but I don't think this worths a so great change.
I could be wrong in this feeling, of course, and the league could result in a great success; but I would be glad if World Rugby desisted from the idea.
If WR have money to help the Tier 3 nations participating to the world league, they could give them anyway; to help them in the continental cups or for other local projects

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Tue, 05 May 2020, 20:14

How do you convince a sponsor or a government that you worth money? Or media and fans that you worth be followed? You need a path from bottom to top. If the path doesn't go to the top, it isn't a path (the WC is only once every 4 years, so not enough as a system). That's the big difference. I don't understand how you don't see it. It is pretty simple.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 05 May 2020, 20:48

victorsra wrote:As Oceania Cup champions, PNG would probably earn a spot in a world league 3rd division.

IMO, Asia/Oceania must operate a regionalized system below the world league's 3rd division. Those countries need to play at least 1 home match every years. Without home matches (events), federations have less opportunities to develop. If there's no money for more than one/two travels every year, groups of 3 are the best solution always, with one home and one away match per team, plus a final.

Using that model with Japan and Fiji in TRC, Samoa, Tonga and HK in world's 2nd division, Asia/Oceania could have:

World League 3rd division/Asia-Pacific Championship: Korea, Malaysia, PNG*, Philippines
Division 1 East: Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand
Division 1 West: Sri Lanka, UAE, Kazakhstan
Division 2 East: China, Indonesia, Niue/Cook Islands*
Division 2 West: Qatar, Pakistan, India
Division 3 East: Guam, Solomon Islands, Nauru/Niue*
Division 3 West: Lebanon, Jordan, Uzbekistan
Division 4 East: Nauru/Cook Islands*, Tahiti...

*2019 Oceania Cup was: 1 PNG, 2 Niue, 3 Solomon Is, 4 Nauru. Cook and Tahiti withdrew... But we know Cook Islands would be the team to be there....


I like the idea of the East - West split. The current focus is on the Asia Pacific Region, but Central, West and South Asia also have a lot of potential. To include Kazakhstan, UAE and Sri Lanka together rebalances the region.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 05 May 2020, 20:57

PNG didn't win the Oceania Rugby Cup by much. I don't think they are a very good team. But they are a rugby league national and I am certain that with a bit of investment and a good head coach, they could build a strong rugby team from the talent they have in very little time.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Duke of Earl » Tue, 05 May 2020, 23:55

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I don't know how the Emerging Nations divisions will be determined, but if was from World Rankings as they are now they would be:
Division 1: Georgia, Tonga, Samoa, USA, Uruguay, Spain.
Division 2: Russia, Romania, Portugal, Hong Kong, Canada, Namibia.

So how would that work for Division 1?
Georgia tours to the South Pacific. Spain tours to the Americas. Then in November Spain plays at home to Tonga and Samoa, and Georgia plays at home to USA and Uruguay. Georgia vs Spain, Samoa vs Tonga, USA vs Uruguay would have already been played in regional tournaments. Is the winner the team that tops the log or is there a final?

Division 2 is trickier because Hong Kong, Canada and Namibia literally could not be further apart.


A problem with any Nations League is that, using the current World rankings , approximaltey half of the top 40 nations in the world are based in one continent. Moving past the top division who are used to cross continental matches, how are you realistically going to get the remaining countries involved in this set up. It would be far wiser trying to promote the improvement of the regional competitions and creating incentives for teams to excel in those in addition to using these as qualifying pathways for future world cups. Costs would be lower and pyramid structures can be set up for what is suitable for that region. In addition , trying to improve/implement regional club competitions where they become more inclusive for emerging countries to enter clubs to compete. Nations leagues like these will just keep the rich richer.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 04:03

PNG didn't win the Oceania Rugby Cup by much. I don't think they are a very good team.


Yes, but they beat runners up Niue by 29-10. Anyway, the divisions where Oceania Cup teams would be probably would be political decisions. Just like the Caribbean place in the Americas Rugby Challenge. How can we say Cayman Islands are better than Peru if they never play each other? The fact is RAN must always have half of ARCh teams. Oceania Rugby will probably ask for places in higher divisions. Last time Peru faced Colombia it was 03-50 in 2017. In 2018, Colombia beat Guyana (Caribbeans' best) by 71-07. In 2019, Colombia 83-06 Caymans. Colombians improved, ok, but how to compare?
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 06 May 2020, 04:48

World League Division 3 - African Nations Cup Championship:
Namibia, Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe.
Division 1 North: Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco.
Division 1 South: Madagascar, Zambia, Botswana.
Division 2 North: Ivory Coast, Senegal, Ghana.
Division 2 South: Mauritius, Reunion, Mayotte.
Division 3 North: Nigeria, Cameroon,
Division 3 South: Rwanda, Lesotho, Swaziland.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 05:19

Thinking about time from bottom to top, maybe another model is needed. The WL will be once every 2 years. Continental competitions must operate every year, in the other hand. If it takes 2 years to go up, from continental 4th division to world league's third division it woud be like a decade....
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 06 May 2020, 07:10

victorsra wrote:Thinking about time from bottom to top, maybe another model is needed. The WL will be once every 2 years. Continental competitions must operate every year, in the other hand. If it takes 2 years to go up, from continental 4th division to world league's third division it woud be like a decade....


The World League can be separate to the continental tournaments and RWC qualification tournaments that are already in place. At the moment most of these tier 3 teams play hardly any games. In Asia, the current system is mostly mini tournaments. These can still be played, but in addition the world league home and away fixtures can be played in the October/November test window. There will also be home and away play offs between the bottom team of division 2 and division 3 winner etc. Realistically there are no teams below World League Division 3 level that are close to qualifying for the World Cup, except for Algeria.
I would like to modify the north divisions to this:
Division 1 North: Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Ivory Coast.
Division 2 North: Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon.
If Algeria gets promoted to World League Division 3 (Africa), with the relegated team going to Division 1 South, Division 1 North becomes three teams, and Division 1 South becomes four teams. Also Division 3 South gets scrapped and replaced with Division 2 South Continent, Division 2 South Indian Ocean.

World League Division 3 (Africa): Namibia, Kenya, Zimbabwe, Uganda.
Division 1 North: Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Ivory Coast.
Division 1 South: Madagascar, Zambia, Botswana.
Division 2 North: Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon.
Division 2 South (Continental) Rwanda, Lesotho, Swaziland.
Division 2 South (Indian Ocean) Mauritius, Mayotte, Reunion.
Division

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 06 May 2020, 07:44

Duke of Earl wrote:A problem with any Nations League is that, using the current World rankings , approximaltey half of the top 40 nations in the world are based in one continent.


This has nothing at all to do with a ranking format. Europe is simply the continent with most nations where many people can afford to play team sports and have the free-time for it AND it is a big part of all European cultures and our different educational systems. Kids are expected to learn teamplay through various teamsports.

Even in soccer 13 out of the 20 top teams are from Europe. In the top 40 there are still 23 European teams.
Also don't forget, that there are (the Cartel included) 42 national teams playing test matches every single year. Even in the 2019/2020 with all the Corona shambles 38 teams did play matches in Europe and 4 more would have. Nations like Sri Lanka or Cook Islands who play one year and don't bother the next, will not be found in Europe above the Development level (yeah I know that Europe has a massive cost-reducing infrastructure and proximity advantage).

It would be interesting how many of the test matches were in non-Cartel-European-nations. My guess is around 50% and around 70% if you don't count Cartel-games.
Anyone has data ready for this kind of statistic?

This shows how much World Rugby is missing out, by actually blocking all Europeans nations outside of the Cartel. And no, they are not overrepresented, they are under-represented.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Wed, 06 May 2020, 08:13

victorsra wrote:How do you convince a sponsor or a government that you worth money? Or media and fans that you worth be followed? You need a path from bottom to top. If the path doesn't go to the top, it isn't a path (the WC is only once every 4 years, so not enough as a system). That's the big difference. I don't understand how you don't see it. It is pretty simple.

There's already a path to the top: to the top of Asia (and almost no one in Asia cares about the Asia Cup), to the top of Africa (and the people and sponsors' interest is not enormous neither there), to the top of South America...
The idea that transforming these few-followed continental competitions in part of a World competition would make them loved by sponsors and fans is quite an illusion, to me. But I may be wrong.
At least one time every four years the continental competitions are already part of a World competition, the World Cup qualifying; it doesn't seem to me that this boosted the people and media and sponsors' following of those games

RugbyLiebe wrote:...Cartel ... non-Cartel ...Cartel-games ... Cartel...

There's no Cartel

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 06 May 2020, 08:47

Canalina wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:...Cartel ... non-Cartel ...Cartel-games ... Cartel...

There's no Cartel


So what do you call nations forming their own closed competitions from senior down to youth rugby with no regulations as how to join it AND get away with it?
That's simply a cartel, wether you like it or not.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Thomas » Wed, 06 May 2020, 08:53

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Canalina wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:...Cartel ... non-Cartel ...Cartel-games ... Cartel...

There's no Cartel


To paraphrase Fight Club:

The first rule of the Cartel is: You do not talk about the Cartel. The second rule of the Cartel: You do not talk about the Cartel

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