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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Are you:

For
7
11%
Against
56
89%
 
Total votes : 63
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Wed, 06 May 2020, 10:55

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Canalina wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:...Cartel ... non-Cartel ...Cartel-games ... Cartel...

There's no Cartel


So what do you call nations forming their own closed competitions from senior down to youth rugby with no regulations as how to join it AND get away with it?
That's simply a cartel, wether you like it or not.

There's also a moderator moderating this forum, so here he is a man with more power than us. But I don't call him The Man With The Power, four times in a post. If I did that, it would be probably because or I want to mock him or I want to give him a crystallized characterization (the capital C in "Cartel") to make him appearing as a strong enemy, as something to fight.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 06 May 2020, 11:01

Canalina wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Canalina wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:...Cartel ... non-Cartel ...Cartel-games ... Cartel...

There's no Cartel


So what do you call nations forming their own closed competitions from senior down to youth rugby with no regulations as how to join it AND get away with it?
That's simply a cartel, wether you like it or not.

There's also a moderator moderating this forum, so here he is a man with more power than us. But I don't call him The Man With The Power, four times in a post. If I did that, it would be probably because or I want to mock him or I want to give him a crystallized characterization (the capital C in "Cartel") to make him appearing as a strong enemy, as something to fight.


And I simply don't like the word and meaning of "tier" (maybe even more, because Tier is the word for animal in German) which should have no place in any sport so I chose instead of demoting others to name it as it is. Actually I started that months ago, following a discussion in this forum. I could have used 6N+RC games instead of cartel-games, but that wouldn't include inter-6N&RC-games.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 06 May 2020, 11:33

Japan are being made tier 1 now. Does that put them inside the Cartel?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 06 May 2020, 12:02

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Japan are being made tier 1 now. Does that put them inside the Cartel?


That's actually a very interesting question. I would tend to say no, as they aren't stakeholder in a private tournament undermining open competition as the other 3-vote-nations (you see Canalina, I try to avoid Cartel).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 06 May 2020, 13:22

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Japan are being made tier 1 now. Does that put them inside the Cartel?


That's actually a very interesting question. I would tend to say no, as they aren't stakeholder in a private tournament undermining open competition as the other 3-vote-nations (you see Canalina, I try to avoid Cartel).


I actually hope they don't join either of the existing Cartels. I would like to see a Pacific Championship (Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Japan) in addition to a single round robin Rugby Championship.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 14:33

Canalina wrote:
victorsra wrote:How do you convince a sponsor or a government that you worth money? Or media and fans that you worth be followed? You need a path from bottom to top. If the path doesn't go to the top, it isn't a path (the WC is only once every 4 years, so not enough as a system). That's the big difference. I don't understand how you don't see it. It is pretty simple.

There's already a path to the top: to the top of Asia (and almost no one in Asia cares about the Asia Cup), to the top of Africa (and the people and sponsors' interest is not enormous neither there), to the top of South America...
The idea that transforming these few-followed continental competitions in part of a World competition would make them loved by sponsors and fans is quite an illusion, to me. But I may be wrong.
At least one time every four years the continental competitions are already part of a World competition, the World Cup qualifying; it doesn't seem to me that this boosted the people and media and sponsors' following of those games

RugbyLiebe wrote:...Cartel ... non-Cartel ...Cartel-games ... Cartel...

There's no Cartel


I already said there is the RWC, at least, but it is only once every 4 years. There isn't for any of the regional/anual competitions. Rugby anual competitions are cart....sorry, closed private competitions with stakeholders that control around 60% of the power of the global organization (if this is not cartel, I'd love to know what a cartel is).

Sports world is a extremely competitive environement, with dozens of main sports and other entertainments competing for space. A sport that operate just one open competition (open = with a path from down to top) every four years, but don't have such structure for its main anual competitions, undermines its own development.

More than this, the RWC is NOT the solution for a down-to-top system and the reason is quite simple. Why? Because the RWC is an event with a single host country. This means any of the T2 nations that reach the RWC don't play at home. In other words, the vast majority of nations can't host matches of a top competition.

Why this is important? Because sponsorship (public or private) is not anymore a matter of putting a banner to be seen on TV. Marketing changed a lot. What realy matters is the event, where you engage your public, invite potential partners, invite media and digital influencers (crucial where rugby isn't already popular), and attach your brand to this experience. 6N and TRC offer this every year, but the other countries simply don't have access to what realy matter: home matches of a top level competition. No, ARC and REC aren't this because you can't sell they are the top of anything, it is a lie.

"Ok, but most countries won't be promoted to the top competition anyway, so, what's the difference?". Yes, but capitalism (specialy the 21st century capitalism) is very much about selling the future. You sell future perspectives. A T2 nation can't sell the possibility of going up in a competition system with real value. They need to be able to sell the future. Obviously, a REC won't sell theyy ARE in the 6N or that they WILL BE. They sell that REC competition is the path, so, let's cheer together for that every year. After all, everybody pays the bills of your own development every year. Now, they can sell the RWC, but the RWC is the big scene without the home event. You need the party you can invite your friends too.

This woudn't be crucial if rugby was as big as football is. But rugby arrived in the 21st century as a small thing, so it has to deal with such tough sports environment. We compete for people's attention and this is not easy. In the majority of the countries, the only brand that can do this promotion job is the national team. But, btw, top club level is also controled by Cartel Nations organizations, so....
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby GeoRugby » Wed, 06 May 2020, 15:46

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... l#synonyms

A cartel is an organization of a few independent producers for the purpose of improving the profitability of the firms involved. This usually involves some restriction of output, control of price, and allocation of market shares. Members of a cartel generally maintain their separate identities and financial independence while engaging in cooperative policies. Cartels can either be domestic or international. Because cartels restrict competition and result in higher prices for consumers, they are outlawed in some countries. The only industry operating in the U.S. with a blanket exemption from the antitrust laws is major-league baseball.

I think it describes very well 6N rugby.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Wed, 06 May 2020, 17:01

6N is not a cartel, because they don't control anything apart their own product, the 6N, as the recent electoral campaign showed, with all the southern hemisphere and almost half of the world voting differently from them.
For some years I heard that the 6N+4N controlled all the world suffocating the little nations, that NZ, Saf and Aus were just vassals or accomplices of the ugly Six Nations, now the vote blatantly demonstrated that there's not any cartel, that the little nations has no fear to vote against the 6N and there were also rumors that Wales and Ireland were mumbling to vote for Pichot.
What are the 6N restricting or controlling, outside their own market?
Are they bringing or giving more money from/to World Rugby? (this is not a rhetorical question, I don't know if the amount of money they receive from WR is superior or inferior to the money the produce; probably it's a difficult calculation).
You may define them a club, maybe also a selfish club (even if I don't agree about that), but, to me, not a cartel

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 17:30

The 10 nations control World Rugby (30 of the 51 votes). We only saw something different this year because they split. When I use "Cartel Nations" I mean Tier 1. 6N+TRC.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby GeoRugby » Wed, 06 May 2020, 17:31

You may define them a club, maybe also a selfish club (even if I don't agree about that), but, to me, not a cartel

Obviously, 6N or tier1 can be called a lot of things by different people. If someone chooses to call it cartel I fail to see how it wouldn't apply. You don't think 6N is selfish at the very least?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

Selfish
concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 17:33

The 5N were the IRB itself from 1883 to WWII. Only after WWII the 3 Southern Hemisphere nations and France got the right to vote. And until 1987 these were the only 8 members of IRB. The 5N were absoutely a Cartel controling IRB. It is in their DNA and in the heart of the history of rugby.

Would you like to call 6N now as the heir of an century-old cartel that controled rugby's world? Not Cartel! The heir of one. The product of one. The "Old Cartellians". Seems better?
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Wed, 06 May 2020, 18:57

GeoRugby wrote:
You may define them a club, maybe also a selfish club (even if I don't agree about that), but, to me, not a cartel

Obviously, 6N or tier1 can be called a lot of things by different people. If someone chooses to call it cartel I fail to see how it wouldn't apply. You don't think 6N is selfish at the very least?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

Selfish
concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

Quoting a dictionary makes not you right. Are you not a mass of cells, as a man? But if I call you "mass of cell" you must think that I'm a bit weird or that in some way I'm trying to insult you.
A cartel is a group of people/firms that make a coalition to control the market. May you say me how the Six Nations are doing that? Before this WR chairman voting I can't opposite nothing solid to you, because you had a good way on saying, with no proofs, that the 6N+4N were controlling all the oval world. Now finally all these theories are crumbling down also here and the vote showed that there's no 6N+4N cartel, that the two groups of federations may choose opposite ways and that maybe also into the two groups there are different points of views.
I'm not saying that they are all pure people, it's very likely that between them there are currents of powers, exchange of favors, little or not little episodes of corruption. The presence of an infamous candidate in the world council like that fijian one shows that they are certainly not impermeable to the grey characters. But the blatant exchange of favors between Pichot and Australia shows also that these opaque episodes are made also by "the others", the 6N opponents.
About the selfishness, we are all a bit selfish. Is Georgia helping the neighbor nations to grow up their rugby movements? Or are you mostly thinking to your own realty? You are not selfish, you are acting like most of us. The Six Nations just look to their own garden. The other european nations think that the 6N should help them? Maybe the 6N think that the other european nations should be more efficient on reaching the top level, because their fail deprives the 6N of new potential opponents and of a much bigger market

victorsra wrote:The 5N were the IRB itself from 1883 to WWII. Only after WWII the 3 Southern Hemisphere nations and France got the right to vote. And until 1987 these were the only 8 members of IRB. The 5N were absoutely a Cartel controling IRB. It is in their DNA and in the heart of the history of rugby.

Would you like to call 6N now as the heir of an century-old cartel that controled rugby's world? Not Cartel! The heir of one. The product of one. The "Old Cartellians". Seems better?

So you are saying that the 6N are a cartel and are controlling the world of rugby because they founded IRB and so once upon a time they were ruling the world organization?
It's like accusing an oligarchy transformed in a democracy to be still an oligarchy because if once it was an oligarchy so it must be in its DNA...

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 19:02

not because they founded, but because they didn't accepted other countries to be part of it until 1987 (or, in fact, 1986 ... not sure, but with the creation of the RWC). You do know others weren't able to be members, right? Rugby existed all over the world in the 1980s... nobody had voice. It wasn't other countries fault. Only 8 countries ruled the sport. That's a pure cartel.

There was FIRA, but FIRA cound't be the top federation in the world. FIRA coudn't control the laws of the game.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Wed, 06 May 2020, 19:07

So South Africa is a racist nation because until 1991 they imposed apartheid and Italy is a fascist nation and Brazil is a military dictatorship. I just can't understand...

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 19:17

Completly different from your exemple because the 8 nations that rules IRB alone still have 24 of the 51 votes. They enrlarged their group to 10 nations, still controlling the federation with 30 of the 51 votes.

Again, only with Southern nations in financial trouble this solid cartal split in two faction, with Pichot leading it. And still the power of the 18 votes of the 6N made the difference. You said Wales and Ireland COULD have vote Pichot, but have they? Every Cartel is subject to split. That's what happened. And still shows how much of a cartel the T1 bloc was until now.

Canalina wrote:So South Africa is a racist nation because until 1991 they imposed apartheid and Italy is a fascist nation and Brazil is a military dictatorship. I just can't understand...


No, man, it is quite simple. Italy is not anymore a fascist country because your post-Mussolini Constitution changed! It became a new republic, with different laws. Just like South Africa or Brazilian new constitutions after those dictatorships (but racism hasn't desappeared from South Afirca, come on! It is racist, like most countries in the world are racist because of how people act. Brazil is too. The difference is that racism is now ilegal, which means the State is not racist anymore....doesn't mean the racism disappeared from society)

IRB (WR) still has 30 of the 51 votes beloging to Tier 1 nations. The traces are still there and are much more than traces. The Cartel is there in the power structure.

If IRB had votes for all countries or at least a situation with much less voting power for those T1 nations, the Cartel would be dead and IRB would be democratic, not a Cartel. That's not the case.

It will cease to be a cartel when the majority of the votes are not anymore in the hand of the few "founding" ("established nations") countries.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby rey200 » Wed, 06 May 2020, 20:19

They try to avoid to play with the poor children and yes, that's basically a cartel. Just because you disagree doesn't mean other oppinions are invalid.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby GeoRugby » Wed, 06 May 2020, 20:29

Is Georgia helping the neighbor nations to grow up their rugby movements? Or are you mostly thinking to your own realty? You are not selfish, you are acting like most of us.


There have been many instances in last few years where teams (of different age grades) and officials from neighboring countries visited Georgia to play, see and learn, and they have always been welcomed warmly. There have been seminars and master classes for them. Doesn't it count as helping?

Maybe the 6N think that the other european nations should be more efficient on reaching the top level


Georgia U18 reached a level that they could play and win against 6N teams and do you remember what happened? 6N teams ran away. Georgia U20 is at the level where they can beat and play well against the top teams. They are clearly good enough to play in U20 6N but are prevented to do so by guess who?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Wed, 06 May 2020, 21:18

GeoRugby wrote:There have been many instances in last few years where teams (of different age grades) and officials from neighboring countries visited Georgia to play, see and learn, and they have always been welcomed warmly. There have been seminars and master classes for them. Doesn't it count as helping?

And the 6N are as well offering instructors, classes, meeting, referees, games... So why call them selfish?

GeoRugby wrote:Georgia U18 reached a level that they could play and win against 6N teams and do you remember what happened? 6N teams ran away. Georgia U20 is at the level where they can beat and play well against the top teams. They are clearly good enough to play in U20 6N but are prevented to do so by guess who?

I admit that that U18 move seemed not a good one; I doubt they were scared by Georgia (it's just an U18 competition, why to be scared by a loss?) but I'd like that some journalist in Italy asked our president to explain why they made that move. I suppose the 6N didn't want to risk a relegation, because a bad year by (for example) Scotland U18 may force the subsequent class of Scotland U18 to play versus Czech Republic and Belgium, this influencing their growing path. It's just an hypothesis.
About Georgia U20, let's remember that they have the World Championship every year, so they have full chances to show their strength. Would be better for Georgia to play also in the 6N? Yes, very probably it would, but the 6N have the right to decide differently. It's not a cartel, it's a group of federations that decided to play, at the moment, just between themselves. They don't interfere with the others' right of play

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 06 May 2020, 21:36

Canalina wrote:Is Georgia helping the neighbor nations to grow up their rugby movements?

Considering the political relationship between Russia and Georgia, we must find outstanding the fact that over 2019 Georgia and Russia played A and underage games.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Wed, 06 May 2020, 22:48

I think he means how Georgia helps Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkey...

I've questioned this before, but honestly just compare the levels of development, budget, etc, each union has. Georgia has tons of investments needed in their own rugby to go up, while the 6Ns are, as they call theirselves now, "established nations"... anyway, Italy did their part with the Continental Shield, nobody can say they haven't. But it is worth to note they needed, because their TOP12 clubs demand some path to the Challenge Cup. Just like Argentina knows they can benefit from SLAR and Australia knows Fiji is a good team to have in NRC.

When we talk about educators, for exemple, i think there isn't much of this split. People that work on development are much more helpful in terms of such exchange work. The issues are much bigger in the top of the organizations.

However, I do think T2s could and should do more for T3s. In the end, as T2s have few resources for their own needs, the best thing can be done is political support.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 07 May 2020, 06:47

Canalina wrote:I suppose the 6N didn't want to risk a relegation, because a bad year by (for example) Scotland U18 may force the subsequent class of Scotland U18 to play versus Czech Republic and Belgium, this influencing their growing path.

Reread your sentence. Do you really think this doesn't sound bad, selfish and like a cartel. Why should i.e. Scotland be above other nations if they don't win on the pitch? Because they are part of a group above the continental federation. That is a cartel.

The reason I heard from somebody close to one of the British nations coaching staff, was that they left this tournament, as the accomodation wasn't up to their high standards at some continental events. So those little posh boys wanted to stay in a hotel with more stars and not in better youth hostels.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Canalina » Thu, 07 May 2020, 08:08

A cartel is not just a group above/separated by the others, but a group illicitly influencing the market through the majority obtained by forming the group itself. How is the 6N influencing illicitly the whole rugby panorama, or at least the European one?
By controlling the World Rugby voting thanks to their complicity with the 4N and the subsequent majority of votes, you could have said until a week ago. But the WR chairman election showed that there is not the supposed 6N+4N union and that they may differ also on a basilar thing like the choice of the world chairman.
If there are other ways in which the Six Nations are directly and negatively influencing the other federations for their own profit, please tell me and maybe I will change my mind

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 07 May 2020, 08:37

Canalina wrote:A cartel is not just a group above/separated by the others, but a group illicitly influencing the market through the majority obtained by forming the group itself. How is the 6N influencing illicitly the whole rugby panorama, or at least the European one?


Ehm, your Scotland example is perfect. They are a cartel, because they make sure, that all of their members have an advantage over others.
It can also be called undue advantage: Lets imagine, your son has better marks than two kids who are kids of council members, but those counsil members's kids get the stipendium from the city counsil based on that they deserve it more. When you get angry about it, suddenly the city counsil decides, that the stipendium is just for city counsil members' kids and exclude everyone else from the exams.
That's exactly what happened, only that you can vote city counsil members out, but in this case they also have the most vote from the electorate AND even control the government above.

I can understand, why nobody wants promotion/relegation within the 6N, but securing that some stay in on merit, is without a doubt a cartel.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby sk 88 » Thu, 07 May 2020, 09:52

In English & Welsh law you only need to meet one of the tests to be a cartel. So it doesn't really matter if they meet all the definitions or not, at least I think World Rugby operates under the laws of England & Wales in one of its by-laws.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Pedro1 » Thu, 07 May 2020, 11:07

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Canalina wrote:A cartel is not just a group above/separated by the others, but a group illicitly influencing the market through the majority obtained by forming the group itself. How is the 6N influencing illicitly the whole rugby panorama, or at least the European one?


Ehm, your Scotland example is perfect. They are a cartel, because they make sure, that all of their members have an advantage over others.
It can also be called undue advantage: Lets imagine, your son has better marks than two kids who are kids of council members, but those counsil members's kids get the stipendium from the city counsil based on that they deserve it more. When you get angry about it, suddenly the city counsil decides, that the stipendium is just for city counsil members' kids and exclude everyone else from the exams.
That's exactly what happened, only that you can vote city counsil members out, but in this case they also have the most vote from the electorate AND even control the government above.

I can understand, why nobody wants promotion/relegation within the 6N, but securing that some stay in on merit, is without a doubt a cartel



This is a perfect analogy.

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