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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 14:13

victorsra wrote:But problem is: Europe will have 8.5 spots. None of the T1s are really at risk because to be at risk someone like Spain or Russia or Romania must beat them. It is not even about Georgia. And even if they lose to one of them it is not enough because they would still make a Top 8. They need to be beaten by 2 of them + Georgia.

In Oceania, it will be 4.5 spots? Again, Australia and NZ would need to be beaten twice by PI and even though they will qualify. South Africa isn't threatened by Namibia or Kenya, not even close, nor Argentina by Uruguay or Brazil....



In other words, we would need to reorganise the entire qualifying structure. See, everything about the World League proposal is about reorganising the international schedule. There's no reason you can't do both. Europe currently has 8.5 places, but there's no rule that says it has to be done in the way it currently is. The bonus is the T1's will have to play matches against T2 opponents. The current idea being floated for the World League is far more limiting for T2 nations in terms of matches against T1 opposition. But, with a new qualifying structure, even if the likes of Spain and Russia don't beat the T1 sides, they still get valuable game time against them on a regular basis every few years.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 14:19

Well, but a short Qualy involving everybody would make sense. It is only different from Wolrd League as the only idea behind World League is make more money.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 18:18

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:
1 Feb, 2019 = Gregor Paul: World League won't save New Zealand rugby's sinking ship
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12200094



The more money that becomes available to the top players the more likely it is that those from a disadvantaged financial background will decide early in life that they want rugby to be their career.


The horror :shock:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 23:11

sk 88 wrote:
FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:
1 Feb, 2019 = Gregor Paul: World League won't save New Zealand rugby's sinking ship
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12200094



The more money that becomes available to the top players the more likely it is that those from a disadvantaged financial background will decide early in life that they want rugby to be their career.


The horror :shock:

Kiwis realizing that world is biased towards the bigger and richer countries.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 23:35

And yet they keep insisting to play half as much rugby as the NHers and do so in a super complicated competition.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 13:58

fullbackace wrote: Why not give qualifiers to top 2 4N and top 2 6N only, that way last top spot in the group will be up for grabs in the playoff.

Last 2 in 4N
Last 4 in 6N
Islanders
Japan
EU 1
Americas 1
Africa 1

Because tier 1 countries wouldn't approve it. Pichot isn't that crazy.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 15:41

iul wrote:And yet they keep insisting to play half as much rugby as the NHers and do so in a super complicated competition.

Yeah, but no one goes to the games...so they should probably play less :lol:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 16:58

TheStroBro wrote:
iul wrote:And yet they keep insisting to play half as much rugby as the NHers and do so in a super complicated competition.

Yeah, but no one goes to the games...so they should probably play less :lol:

IIRC Super Rugby crowds are bigger than Prem or T14 crowds.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 17:46

Not sure, man. Where is the official data for the 2018 Super Rugby? It was definitly in the past. Now I am not sure.

Top 14 had 14,341 average. With much more rounds. And it doesn't count French clubs in the European Cup.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 18:10

victorsra wrote:Not sure, man. Where is the official data for the 2018 Super Rugby? It was definitly in the past. Now I am not sure.

Top 14 had 14,341 average. With much more rounds. And it doesn't count French clubs in the European Cup.

14436 according to this: https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super ... fe-support
The problems are they're playing half as much and that they're doing it in a super complicated competition.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby Tobar » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 18:37

victorsra wrote:
Let's look at it this way. Imagine the 6N doubles as World Cup qualifiers over a two year period, and lets say only the top 4 qualify automatically, well then, you've just increased the stakes for the teams playing. It means games with more intensity, which is more attractive to TV viewers. Look at the Italy vs Georgia match in November. It was effectively a 6N playoff match where both teams were out to prove something, and the intensity of the match was high. The teams that don't qualify playoff against T2/T3 nations. This gets more T1 v T2 games, and more exposure to T2 nations in mainstream rugby media.


But problem is: Europe will have 8.5 spots. None of the T1s are really at risk because to be at risk someone like Spain or Russia or Romania must beat them. It is not even about Georgia. And even if they lose to one of them it is not enough because they would still make a Top 8. They need to be beaten by 2 of them + Georgia.

In Oceania, it will be 4.5 spots? Again, Australia and NZ would need to be beaten twice by PI and even though they will qualify. South Africa isn't threatened by Namibia or Kenya, not even close, nor Argentina by Uruguay or Brazil....


The threat isn't that the Tier 1s will lose out on the RWC, at least not until it expands and there are enough quality teams challenging for those spots. The threat is that you end up in a more difficult pool, similar to the 7s circuit. We saw how disastrous that was for England fans in 2015.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby Tobar » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 18:40

iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure, man. Where is the official data for the 2018 Super Rugby? It was definitly in the past. Now I am not sure.

Top 14 had 14,341 average. With much more rounds. And it doesn't count French clubs in the European Cup.

14436 according to this: https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super ... fe-support
The problems are they're playing half as much and that they're doing it in a super complicated competition.


The bigger problem is that it is a super complicated question. Super Rugby has 19 rounds plus 3 playoff games. That's more than the NFL. Increasing to more games will just lead to even emptier stadiums and a lower value per game. It costs money to open stadiums that big and staff it properly so fan attendance does matter.

Super Rugby needs to reorganize itself so it isn't a weird backwards structure that has teams traveling all over the world with the best teams missing out because they happen to play in New Zealand.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 19:00

Tobar wrote:
iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure, man. Where is the official data for the 2018 Super Rugby? It was definitly in the past. Now I am not sure.

Top 14 had 14,341 average. With much more rounds. And it doesn't count French clubs in the European Cup.

14436 according to this: https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super ... fe-support
The problems are they're playing half as much and that they're doing it in a super complicated competition.


The bigger problem is that it is a super complicated question. Super Rugby has 19 rounds plus 3 playoff games. That's more than the NFL. Increasing to more games will just lead to even emptier stadiums and a lower value per game. It costs money to open stadiums that big and staff it properly so fan attendance does matter.

Super Rugby needs to reorganize itself so it isn't a weird backwards structure that has teams traveling all over the world with the best teams missing out because they happen to play in New Zealand.

I don't buy the argument that more games = lower crowds. Why would that be? In Eng and Fr the've been playing a lot of games for a lot of time and the trajectory of their crowds have been up.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby Tobar » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 19:07

Because their competition is not confusing and complex. If you have trouble filling the stadium now, how will it not be impacted by creating more games?

They have their domestic comps as well as European cups. Super Rugby is basically just the European cup.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 19:27

Tobar wrote:Because their competition is not confusing and complex. If you have trouble filling the stadium now, how will it not be impacted by creating more games?

They have their domestic comps as well as European cups. Super Rugby is basically just the European cup.

SR is confusing and complex. They have a weird conference system where some teams with fewer points are ahead of some teams with more points. Many games are at ridiculous hours and teams go away for weeks sometimes.
They should all go back to their domestic competitions with SR being a euro cup style competition that lasts 9 weeks and includes all the domestic sides.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby Tobar » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 19:54

iul wrote:
Tobar wrote:Because their competition is not confusing and complex. If you have trouble filling the stadium now, how will it not be impacted by creating more games?

They have their domestic comps as well as European cups. Super Rugby is basically just the European cup.

SR is confusing and complex. They have a weird conference system where some teams with fewer points are ahead of some teams with more points. Many games are at ridiculous hours and teams go away for weeks sometimes.
They should all go back to their domestic competitions with SR being a euro cup style competition that lasts 9 weeks and includes all the domestic sides.


I agree 100%. Super Rugby makes much more sense as a Champions/Challenge Cup tournament. The issue is that there are only 4, 4 and 5 teams in each of the 3 countries (NZ having the most). If these teams play a domestic tournament then it won't be enough games or would get repetitive. The other option is to use Mitre10/Currie Cup/NRC as the domestic competition but that would likely result in tons of scheduling changes and complete revamps of the teams in the competition. So I'm not really sure what the best fix is that makes sense.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 20:37

iul wrote:I don't buy the argument that more games = lower crowds. Why would that be? In Eng and Fr the've been playing a lot of games for a lot of time and the trajectory of their crowds have been up.


I watch a lot of Super Rugby... there's a lot more pigeons in attendance than people.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 20:42

iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure, man. Where is the official data for the 2018 Super Rugby? It was definitly in the past. Now I am not sure.

Top 14 had 14,341 average. With much more rounds. And it doesn't count French clubs in the European Cup.

14436 according to this: https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super ... fe-support
The problems are they're playing half as much and that they're doing it in a super complicated competition.



So it is severely droping. Once it was almost 25.000. And with huge transportation costs and bad TV times when your team plays away.

While Top 14 is only growing. It was recently about 11-12k. And with the same time zone for everybody, 10 more regular season matches (+ European Cup for everybody) and very few transportation costs.

About number of matches: I don't think more matches = less public in each. More matches = more money in the club's pockets (if the costs around it are low and there is market for that).
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby rey200 » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:03

SR has problems with attendance.
Problem is that everyone wants to play New Zealand, but noone wants to watch Austrialian teams. Question is: is there a way to have sustainable leagues without SR? I believe we will see South Africans jump to Pro14, what will make sense in a certain way. But do we have enough interest for a Trans-Tasman league, that doesn't suck? What about Jaguares, what about Sunwolves.... really not that easy to answer, right?
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby 4N » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:14

Kings crowds haven’t improved at all in Pro 14.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:17

Kings = 2,986

Cheetahs = 4,567

But I really want to know if Cheetahs and Kings fans wanted to be in PRO14 and spend the year without playing Bulls, Stormers, Lions and Sharks (Currie Cup doesn't count as Cheetahs play with reserves). They killed local rivalries that are central to sport.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:20

Tobar wrote:
iul wrote:
Tobar wrote:Because their competition is not confusing and complex. If you have trouble filling the stadium now, how will it not be impacted by creating more games?

They have their domestic comps as well as European cups. Super Rugby is basically just the European cup.

SR is confusing and complex. They have a weird conference system where some teams with fewer points are ahead of some teams with more points. Many games are at ridiculous hours and teams go away for weeks sometimes.
They should all go back to their domestic competitions with SR being a euro cup style competition that lasts 9 weeks and includes all the domestic sides.


I agree 100%. Super Rugby makes much more sense as a Champions/Challenge Cup tournament. The issue is that there are only 4, 4 and 5 teams in each of the 3 countries (NZ having the most). If these teams play a domestic tournament then it won't be enough games or would get repetitive. The other option is to use Mitre10/Currie Cup/NRC as the domestic competition but that would likely result in tons of scheduling changes and complete revamps of the teams in the competition. So I'm not really sure what the best fix is that makes sense.

Going to Mitre/Currie/NRC (or better yet have a proper club championship in Australia) + 9 week SR is the way to go IMO. Make sure to have 22-26 guaranteed home games in the domestic competition + 6 in the SR group stage and you'd see much fewer players leave for norther shores. That would also have the added benefit of each country having a national champion. It can't be very fun for the Aussies to keep watching their sides getting pounded by the Kiwis. In a domestic competition they'd have guaranteed Australian semis + winner. Much more attractive to TV channels and sponsors than losing.

victorsra wrote:So it is severely droping. Once it was almost 25.000. And with huge transportation costs and bad TV times when your team plays away.

While Top 14 is only growing. It was recently about 11-12k. And with the same time zone for everybody, 10 more regular season matches (+ European Cup for everybody) and very few transportation costs.

About number of matches: I don't think more matches = less public in each. More matches = more money in the club's pockets (if the costs around it are low and there is market for that).

Sooner or later the SHers will have to accept this.

TheStroBro wrote:
I watch a lot of Super Rugby... there's a lot more pigeons in attendance than people.

The stadiums they play in are quite large, making their crowds look really small

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:22

Well, I am still believing Bulls, Stormers, Lions and Sharks might want to go to PRO14 soon (PRO20 with Jaguares and Rome too?). If they do that, Super Rugby becomes a Asia-Pacific League (good job Twiggy!) and a Southern Heineken Cup-style short tournament could be a real possibility for them to keep playing the NZs. But that's another discussion.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:22

Another interesting question is what would happen if mungoball's NRL seriously expanded into NZ, to, say, 5-6 teams. Would rugby be seriously be affected?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 21:24

Not sure it will ever happen. One more team maybe, not more than this.
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