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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Are you:

For
6
10%
Against
52
90%
 
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Silver Fox » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 09:39

Apart from skipping semi-finals nothing has changed in the set-up. I am not convinced. I still think it is a very bad idea.
The scrapping of T1 internationals for all T2 bar Japan and Fiji is too big a set back if you ask me.
Look at Portugal to see how hard it is to get promoted if there is no automatic promotion but a one-off promotion-relegation match hosted by the higher placed team. If there is not one opportunity to get higher level experience for two years it will be nigh impossible to win that match.
If you ask me Tier 1 will effectively be more ringfenced than they are now.

Another thing I wondered is how the revenues will be distributed.
How much will go to Division 1 and how much will Division 2 nations get?
Atm RWC participants all receive HP grants (IIRC it was something like an annual €1 million)
Will Div2 nations receive something in this order?
Will it be enough to setup and maintain HP centres?
Will it be enough to setup franchises, like WR have also done with the Fiji Drua?
I read about fast tracking T2 to become competitive. It obviously will not be through a competitive schedule for the national teams (especially not for the top T2).
Will it be through helping the domestic scene then? Looking at Europe would extra funding mean that unions could help teams taking part in the Continental shield?
Those would be factors that could make me more in favour of these new plans.
But as it stands, and purely speaking from a T2 point of view, I think we're better off without this deal.
Bring on a rugby Brexit.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 10:24

I'm getting more and more nervous about this whole thing. It just feels poorly planned.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 10:55

rey200 wrote:Having Infront leading the attack is a very very very bad sign. If you think they care about the game... well you're wrong. Money, money, money, money, money, money, making a movie starring Depardieu and Roth, money, money, and some more money. And money. All they care about.


If money, money, money breaks up snobbish, snobbish, snobbish behaviour. Fair enough.

At the moment we've got the problem that the rich kids all go to their private school. But that is a problem for other kids as there is actually no other school around to get the same qualifications as in the private school. To make things worse the school stopped taking new regular entries, but they applaud everytime a guest pupil from the village is allowed in. But only for a short time, one stays between each other.
But the rich kids don't see that the only reason they are there is the luck of birth to be in that only school, instead they mock the other kids, that they aren't on the same level as them and not as smart and intelligent and why they don't build their own school to get better. Totally forgetting, that you can't go to university if you are not from this private school.

Rugby was inventend to successfully stop rich brats revolting against their lower class teachers, and a part of this attitude shamefully stayed in this great sport. If money doesn't break up this ridiculous attitude of feeling superior against nations you don't play that often, nothing ever will.

Would I prefer a different setup? Yes. Will we see a different setup from this one? No way. The 6N will always be blocking. This is one of two chances to give them something they might agree with, the other one imho is a qualification.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 10:56

This makes the situation worse though, it reduces the number of games T1's play against T2's.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 11:09

bolleje wrote:
Lets face it, we need to grow the game and the only simple, but effective solution is by finally creating qualification games everybody needs to take part.


Probably not the most popular opinion someone has posted here, but I (strongly) disagree.

There are a couple of "own truths" coming up regularly here, that I think are a bit biased and not really objective... because they are looked upon with Tier2 glasses (and this does not equal "best rugby interest" glasses).

1. "Automatic" qualification. I read a lot of times here that "the automatic qualification" needs to go and is unfair. Outside of the hosts, nobody currently qualifies automatically. The first qualification phase is the previous World Cup in which you have to finish top 3 of your group. It's not New Zealand's fault that they have no problem achieving this... they still qualify on merits. If at the next World Cup South Africa, Italy and Namibia all beat the All Blacks, they will have to qualify (unless the rules change). So claiming that there is automatic qualification for the "big elite rugby countries" is not entirely true. With rugby being a very physical sport, I think the idea of having behemoths like England en Ireland go through qualifications like there exist in football, is just dangerous. Nobody wants to see England smash Norway (or even Belgium). So unless the gaps between those countries narrow quickly, let's not go that route please. Do you really want to see someone like Bastareaud smash through an amateur defence?

2. People are confusing "rugby growth" with "the number of rugby-playing countries". Depending on your definition of growth, growing rugby could also mean getting more revenue, getting more international recognition or simply getting more players and/or fans. You don't necessarily do that by protecting the interest of some "smaller" nations like Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Georgia and Romania. On the contrary, one could argue that the "big markets" are much more important. And in that sense, the proposal of including USA and Japan into the closed Rugby Championship is probably a very good idea for growing the sport. Should economics be the only factor? I don't think so. I think a big charm of rugby is some nations, like Georgia, overachieving compared to other sports. But you can't blame some people to have other interests. If Rugby would become a huge sport in the USA and Japan, I'm pretty sure those smaller countries would follow as well. And they would have a hard time staying competitive against those powerhouses. In that regard, maybe Georgia and the pacific nations should hope that the sport doesn't grow all that much...

My main concern with the World League is ,as some people have suggested , a dilution of the World Cup. I would prefer Europe and the Rest of the World to have less matches against each other instead of more. That way, when the World Cup finally comes it would still have a sense of surprise and uniqueness. If we compare to football again, Germany and France don't play Brazil and Argentina every year which makes the anticipation when they finally meet that much bigger.


Somehow totally overread this post.

1. You can define it how you want. The most important thing is that this RWC-ranking-based qualifcation reduces the number each nations gets against the best teams in their region.
Your argument about smashing through is non-existent in this years. Bastareaud won't smash through anyone in the REC. All of them play Georgia, I am 100% sure that's not a big difference between someone like Bastareaud or Gorgodze and his friends. What we miss out is huge cash injections into tier2 nations. As you can be sure there will be 20k-40k people watching their REC nation against a 6N team. Travelling fans add to that. The fans would love to have a trip to Germany or Spain for a weekend of fun and a rugby game. The result doesn't matter in the end.
As this post is an answer to my proposal of a qualification system, I must state, that I fear you haven't read the details before answering.

2. British people are doing that, when they find another country like Gibraltar. I think I do agree with you, but you miss a very important point. They only follow if there are pathways to follow.
British rugby admins are so fundamentally stupid at wasting chances, that everybody's brain hurts. If you want money growth you create pathways not obstacles for nations like Spain or Germany or the Netherlands.

In your last part you actually contradict yourself massively. You are for less interregional duells, but you also think that they can't play against their regional teams. You need to decide which one you want. You can't choose both.

Anyway, I haven't read a lot from you yet, enjoyed it, keep on having your own opinion, even if it is against the mainstream in this forum.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 12:09

Found the full article on IMG’s bid for the 6N.

The Six Nations is to receive details on Friday of a third multi-million pound offer as bidding for the game’s prize assets intensifies, The Daily Telegraph can reveal.

World Rugby launched its own salvage mission in Dublin on Thursday, unveiling a £5 billion Nations Championship project that will guarantee at least a £10 million uplift per year to each of the 12 competing unions over the next dozen years, with the hope that it will head off a rival £500 million bid by CVC to the Six Nations.

There is little doubt that there is a scramble to secure rugby’s future, with World Rugby hoping that it has put enough on the table to persuade the sceptical Six Nations’ unions that it has the commercial clout to compete with other interested parties.

However, The Telegraph understands that the Six Nations is to be presented with a £1.75 billion investment proposal by the International Management Group, one of the world’s leading sports agencies, which will look to be pliable in its relationship with the European governing body so that it might have a global reach, too. A competition format is yet to be discussed, although it will include all the world’s leading nations. The money matches other bidders.

A Six Nations meeting on Sunday will consider the detail of the IMG proposal, known as Project Light, which has been 18 months in gestation.

There had been fears that CVC’s involvement, offering instant riches for a 30 per cent equity stake, would lead to the collapse of the global initiative proposed by World Rugby. There are still significant stumbling blocks to the World Rugby deal being voted through at a council meeting in Dublin on May 22, promotion and relegation being one of them, relationships with the English and French clubs another.

The Six Nations remains opposed to promotion and relegation, with Scotland and Ireland both sceptical. England retain “an open mind”. World Rugby acknowledges that there are “reservations and concerns … and it remains a discussion point to find a pathway solution”.

The mood was upbeat, however, as the 40 representatives broke after a three-hour meeting, with one saying it was “a Lazarus moment”, while another spoke of the project getting “a kiss of life”.

The IMG proposal would seek to keep the equity in the sport as opposed to the CVC approach. Agustin Pichot, the World Rugby vice-chairman, said that it would be “madness” to go with a private equity group, as an element of control would be lost.

There is a lot of due diligence to be done. Certainly there is a diplomatic mission to be mounted concerning the English and French clubs, who have threatened legal action over a perceived encroachment on their schedules. World Rugby has partially recognised that complaint by ditching the proposed semi-final slot, thus also reducing the player workload. The players’ unions still have concerns over the amount of travel involved.

Unions will want assurances that the £5 billion reserve of funding that has been guaranteed by Swiss-based Infront Sports, headed up by Sepp Blatter’s nephew, Philippe Blatter, will provide a smooth release of money into the game.

“Our financial model is [now] clearer and more robust,” said Brett Gosper, the World Rugby chief executive.

The promotion and relegation issue will not be easily resolved, although under World Rugby’s Nations Championship it would probably not come into operation until 2026. At that point, there would be a provision for the bottom side in the Six Nations to have a play-off against the aspiring team, such as Georgia or Romania. The same would apply in the southern hemisphere.

Given that there would be no competition at all in a World Cup year and no relegation or promotion in a Lions year, there would only be three such play-off scenarios in any 12-year cycle. That match would take place on the same weekend as the final, which could see two teams from the same hemisphere contesting the title. The top two points-scorers in the 12-team competition, with each country playing each other once across a calendar year, will make up the finalists.

The southern hemisphere welcomed the World Rugby project. “This is now the next step change that World Rugby needs to look at to make sure it remains relevant,” said Raelene Castle, the Australia chief executive, while her South African counterpart, Jurie Roux, said: “Change in rugby is needed and this is an opportunity for change.”

World Rugby has made its play. “The other propositions under consideration are for entities of the world game,” Gosper said. “This is the only offer on the table where there is a world game solution. We would like to know by May 22 whether it is a deal or no deal, in or out, for all concerned.”

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Thomas » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 12:55

Until we know which way the 6N Board jumps everything released by World Rugby is pure speculation. they can release as many fancy videos and press statements but at the end they NH more than they need SH or World Rugby that is the cold reality.

For starters it was never revealed that ALL T1 nations had to agree for World league to proceed. The board voted but it gave a false hope/promise.

Italy is a Tier 1 would never vote for it, also Scotland, they are a small nation in Rugby terms.

They never wanted to change the tradition of playing each other in March, they only care the revenue the RWC provides.

If the NH countries reject the proposal in favour of a bundled autumn / 6 Nations deal with CVC or IMG (30% ownership stake) then the SH countries should boycott, after all why help them make even more money to destroy SH Rugby. Remember they won’t share the extra revenue from the autumn matches.

Which begs the question what then happens if the cash flow to the norther unions and to the English premiership increases. How do the SH unions survive/protect themselves in response? let alone T2 Nations??

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 13:01

"The promotion and relegation issue will not be easily resolved, although under World Rugby’s Nations Championship it would probably not come into operation until 2026. At that point, there would be a provision for the bottom side in the Six Nations to have a play-off against the aspiring team, such as Georgia or Romania. The same would apply in the southern hemisphere."

Well, then I am back to f*** off World Rugby.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 13:15

RugbyLiebe wrote:"The promotion and relegation issue will not be easily resolved, although under World Rugby’s Nations Championship it would probably not come into operation until 2026. At that point, there would be a provision for the bottom side in the Six Nations to have a play-off against the aspiring team, such as Georgia or Romania. The same would apply in the southern hemisphere."

Well, then I am back to f*** off World Rugby.


I do not think "your" version is realistic, otherwise WC boycott from a number of countries will be back on the table.
Again, most probably no League.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 13:23

BigG wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:"The promotion and relegation issue will not be easily resolved, although under World Rugby’s Nations Championship it would probably not come into operation until 2026. At that point, there would be a provision for the bottom side in the Six Nations to have a play-off against the aspiring team, such as Georgia or Romania. The same would apply in the southern hemisphere."

Well, then I am back to f*** off World Rugby.


I do not think "your" version is realistic, otherwise WC boycott from a number of countries will be back on the table.
Again, most probably no League.


"My" version is directly cited out of the article 4N posted. I hope this can't be the case. But I wouldn't wonder. Bill Beaumont "Oh bollocks, there was an outcry for excluding the PI. Lets switch Fiji for the USA to get them quiet. Nobody will care enough about Georgia anyway" - 6N: "Oh what a splendid idea, that way we even get rid of the Barbarian Yanks. Long live the queen".
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 13:32

There will be 100% a boycott if this goes through. No pro/rel until 2026? What the hell are they smoking over there? So not only does it reduce the number of T1 v T2 matches, it doesn’t even bother to implement it for another 6 years after launch. This is ridiculous. This won’t go through. No chance in the world the T2/3 unions put up with this, I don’t care how much in favour the Sanzaar nations are of this, it will screw up the World Cup.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Silver Fox » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:10

Since the title of this thread asks about my feelings I'll refrain from trying to be objective or realistic for once.

If it was up to me I would ringfence the Home Nations.
Make sure no-one gets out.

Make the Rugby Championship a truely rest-of-the-world championship.
Rugby Europe should be detached from the 6N.
Listen to Vova and join the Asia-Pacific and other regions in a pathway to the top of the RC.

Prioritize the development of Japan, USA, Brazil, Spain and Russia so they can weigh in commercially (although this won't happen overnight).
Boycot the autumn internationals and invite France and Italy to join the RC.

One can phantasize...

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:27

You know what this comes down to? That for most of the games history 8 nations were in control over everything. Now, the game in the last 20 years has started to make inroads elsewhere and it’s making life difficult trying to accommodate both the old guard and the nations knocking at their door. The game is in this position because a select group of nations ring fenced themselves in for so long, and now it’s coming back to bite them in the arse. How much better of a position would Australia and New Zealand be in if they helped develop Asia and the Pacific 25 years ago when the game went professional? The irony here is the reliance on the old way of doing things is exactly why they are in the position they are currently in.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:46

Well, if the Blatters arrived in rugby, expect bribes to make NC happen :oops: Conservatism vs corruption, let's watch.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:49

4N wrote:Anyone have the full article?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... nvestment/


A friend suggests that there is no validation on the email address you use to register so you can sign up as "firstname.lastname@literallyanydomain.anything" or more amusingly still as the name of the journalist who wrote the article ...

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dans » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:52

4N wrote:Found the full article on IMG’s bid for the 6N.

The Six Nations is to receive details on Friday of a third multi-million pound offer as bidding for the game’s prize assets intensifies, The Daily Telegraph can reveal.

World Rugby launched its own salvage mission in Dublin on Thursday, unveiling a £5 billion Nations Championship project that will guarantee at least a £10 million uplift per year to each of the 12 competing unions over the next dozen years, with the hope that it will head off a rival £500 million bid by CVC to the Six Nations.

There is little doubt that there is a scramble to secure rugby’s future, with World Rugby hoping that it has put enough on the table to persuade the sceptical Six Nations’ unions that it has the commercial clout to compete with other interested parties.

However, The Telegraph understands that the Six Nations is to be presented with a £1.75 billion investment proposal by the International Management Group, one of the world’s leading sports agencies, which will look to be pliable in its relationship with the European governing body so that it might have a global reach, too. A competition format is yet to be discussed, although it will include all the world’s leading nations. The money matches other bidders.

A Six Nations meeting on Sunday will consider the detail of the IMG proposal, known as Project Light, which has been 18 months in gestation.

There had been fears that CVC’s involvement, offering instant riches for a 30 per cent equity stake, would lead to the collapse of the global initiative proposed by World Rugby. There are still significant stumbling blocks to the World Rugby deal being voted through at a council meeting in Dublin on May 22, promotion and relegation being one of them, relationships with the English and French clubs another.

The Six Nations remains opposed to promotion and relegation, with Scotland and Ireland both sceptical. England retain “an open mind”. World Rugby acknowledges that there are “reservations and concerns … and it remains a discussion point to find a pathway solution”.

The mood was upbeat, however, as the 40 representatives broke after a three-hour meeting, with one saying it was “a Lazarus moment”, while another spoke of the project getting “a kiss of life”......



This sounds very much like a groom & bride story.

Six Nations LTD playing the bride role...with more than one suitors, all prepared to pay handsomely for the privilege of the 'wedding night'....
But once that is over, what do we get?

World Rugby are bending forwards and backwards, trying to make sure 6N Ltd are not moving further away from the WR 'stable'....it's still the 'hen with golden eggs'.
In the process they seem to be happy go over any red lines and/or any promises made in the past to rest of the member organisation.
For them this prize is bigger and more important than the cost/ price of individual parts/ collateral damage

What would happen if 6N go and sign the £1.8 billion separate contract with IMG. Would 6N have that net present value in their books?
It would if it would include the Autumn internationals including the other Southern Hemisphere leading nations and Lions tours. Without, not sure if it is enough.

Do 6N need the blessing of WR, or WR could oppose that?....
These SH nations could sign individual contracts with the new entitiy leading to a confrontation/split from WR.

We then could be in a situation where we replicate boxing governing bodies and parallel competitions / titles...the so called professional code rugby and the rest.
In that case Rugby World Cup, as we known, would/should disintegrate...unless WR agree something with the new sport entity.
So...who is the 'daddy' in any of these transactions?...6N or WR?
Last edited by dans on Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 15:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:54

This promotion relegation is a bone WR is throwing to tier2 nations to get them on board at this time, and nothing more. If anyone here thinks Italy will be allowed to be relegated, think again. Like I said before, in few years WR will come up with excuse to cancel playoff and tier 2 nations will be segregated from tier1 nations for good. (except perhaps Japan and Fiji). That is why tier 2 nations need to stand up collectively right now and say NO!

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:55

sk 88 wrote:
4N wrote:Anyone have the full article?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... nvestment/


A friend suggests that there is no validation on the email address you use to register so you can sign up as "firstname.lastname@literallyanydomain.anything" or more amusingly still as the name of the journalist who wrote the article ...


:lol: :thumbup:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 14:57

GeoRugby wrote:This promotion relegation is a bone WR is throwing to tier2 nations to get them on board at this time, and nothing more. If anyone here thinks Italy will be allowed to be relegated, think again. Like I said before, in few years WR will come up with excuse to cancel playoff and tier 2 nations will be segregated from tier1 nations for good. (except perhaps Japan and Fiji). That is why tier 2 nations need to stand up collectively right now and say NO!


Yep. Classic bait and switch.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 15:00

Jurie Roux, said: “Change in rugby is needed and this is an opportunity for change.”


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism

We must do something
This is something
Therefore, we must do this.


SANZAAR in a nut shell.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 15:16

Blatter's involvement may generate as much skepticism as we want, but Infront is quite used to promote sports that offering less than rugby get more exposure outside their heartlands. It isn't necessarily something bad.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby amz » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 16:29

sk 88 wrote:
We must do something
This is something
Therefore, we must do this.


SANZAAR in a nut shell.


the more I meet people involved in rugby at the top the more I am disappointed by their intelect irrespective of nation

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 17:30

amz wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
We must do something
This is something
Therefore, we must do this.


SANZAAR in a nut shell.


the more I meet people involved in rugby at the top the more I am disappointed by their intelect irrespective of nation

I second this. I had way more faith when I knew less about rugby execs
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby rey200 » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 17:51

ok so the IMG 6N proposal is even worse. I fear Rugby Union is towards a cliff... and accelerating. I'm for sensible change, but having huge amounts of money thrown at parts of the big players won't solve anything. At least if we don't want to see England vs New Zealand as the yearly yawn "world cuppy" final. Because that's where we're heading.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 15 Mar 2019, 18:33

£1.75BB...holy smokes.

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