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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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6
10%
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby JLJordaan » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 13:48

Scrap this world league championship and scrap the automatic WC qualification (unless you are host and reigning champion). If countries have to qualify to play at the WC then you are forced to play against the T2 nations.

Also, when a T1 nation is touring in June/July and October/November you have to play at least one match against a T2 team. Be it a midweek game or a weekend game, that is up to the unions themselves. Let's say France and Georgia tours to Australia; let France play two tests against the Wallabies and a test (or two) against one of the Pacific island teams. Georgia can then play a test against the Wallabies and two tests against Fiji for example. Same can be said for a team touring the Americas or Europe.

Teams like SA, Aus, Nzl and England do not play enough tests against the T2 teams and that is the first trend that needs to be broken.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby iul » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 13:56

sk 88 wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/03/22/world-rugbysplans-new-national-championship-may-damage-game/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

Rugby Europe, for some reason anonymously, also against the proposal.


“The proposal to open up the Six Nations now does not make any sense from an economic perspective because you are not creating any value and for the nation that is relegated, it could be catastrophe and for the nation that is promoted it will be very hard to raise the level of execution and revenues to keep pace.

“What we need to do in the first step is organise more games, regular games against the Six Nations sides to increase the standards on the field and off the field to make the notion of promotion and relegation something that would create value and not destroy value.

“The Six Nations generates the biggest value outside of the Rugby World Cup and we currently generate very little value but we have huge volume. That is where we are complementary and get benefit each other by working together.”

Very disappointing position from RE

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 14:31

It is very weak I must say. Is there any wonder the REC isn’t getting anywhere when they don’t value their own competition?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 15:31

thatrugbyguy wrote:It is very weak I must say. Is there any wonder the REC isn’t getting anywhere when they don’t value their own competition?


He is using value in the literal sense, there is no value being created by REC. As he says in the article he wants to work with World Rugby and the 6N to develop REC commercially so that promotion and relegation between them becomes feasible.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 15:51

The point regarding extra Bledisloe matches is that there will clearly be no ban on playing outside of these windows. So the Unions (the European ones to be crystal clear) will arrange extra money spinning fixtures as they do at the moment. So it will just encroach and encroach and encroach and makes any claim to the window being the same size void.


Just to make it clear, in 2018:

- All Blacks played 14 matches (3 june tests, 6 TRC, 2 matches in Japan, that included the Bledisloe, and 3 november tests in Europe), meaning 6 intercontinental travels (NZ-ARG, ARG-SA, SA-NZ, NZ-JAP, JAP-Europe, Europe-NZ), with 4 time zones changes of more than 4 hours. Nobody played more tests than the All Blacks;


The Nations Championship concept has:

- 11 matches + eventual final (that would be in Europe or Eastern NA, right?)
- Using the All Blacks as exemple, they would play 3 july home matches, than 5 TRC matches (I guess the table would give more home matches for teams with longest trips in away matches... I believe they would schedule a maximum of two away matches in different time zones) and 3 (or 4) matches in Europe. So, we are talking about probably between 4 and 6 intercontinental travels too.

The European nations, in the other hand:

- Only do 2 (maximum 3, like Wales or Scotland in 2018) intercontinental travels now;
- In the Nations Championship they would do between 3 and 4 intercontinental travels (Europe-Continent 1, Continent 1-Continent 2, Continent 2-Continent 3, Continent 3-Europe in the worst case, but some teams will have 2 matches in the same continent), depending on the schedule (but all of them in 1 month);

Not defending the Nations Championship schedule, just putting things in the paper.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 16:03

Assume you meant to quote the bit on travel rather than extra matches?

As I said if you think they would not arrange extra matches outside this tournament, ostensibly as warm ups but actually to get the till ringing, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 16:11

sk 88 wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/03/22/world-rugbysplans-new-national-championship-may-damage-game/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

Rugby Europe, for some reason anonymously, also against the proposal.


“The proposal to open up the Six Nations now does not make any sense from an economic perspective because you are not creating any value and for the nation that is relegated, it could be catastrophe and for the nation that is promoted it will be very hard to raise the level of execution and revenues to keep pace.

“What we need to do in the first step is organise more games, regular games against the Six Nations sides to increase the standards on the field and off the field to make the notion of promotion and relegation something that would create value and not destroy value.

“The Six Nations generates the biggest value outside of the Rugby World Cup and we currently generate very little value but we have huge volume. That is where we are complementary and get benefit each other by working together.”


Good they’re showing some backbone. The French union are for this and normally RE go along with whatever their position is.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 16:54

sk 88 wrote:Assume you meant to quote the bit on travel rather than extra matches?

As I said if you think they would not arrange extra matches outside this tournament, ostensibly as warm ups but actually to get the till ringing, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.


Yes but Bledisloe Cup 3 has been for long time a NZ-AUS problem played without Europe-beased players in October. And they will have time to schedule that as Super Rugby reduced the number of fixtures (the Super 14 model means 3 matches less if I am not wrong and in the case of NZs and Aussies they will have only 1 trip to SA-Argentina with 2 matches in the Super 14 regular season). Another Bledisloe Cup match won't mean more matches/travels than the current number of matches/travels for them.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 18:07

About warm up fixtures:

- NC starts in the middle of the European season (as it starts with the 6N). This means teams have already played in november.
- For SH teams, the NC starts against the Europeans in July. Probably they'll try to arrange a warm up fixture indeed (like a Bledisloe Cup match just after Super Rugby final. considering SR ends in Early/Mid June);
- But july ENDS NH season for players, that will rest in August. This means the most important detail: the NC last 3 (decisive) rounds are the first fixtures in the season for NH sides... this means definitly they'll try to do a warm up match. Celtic Nations already play sometimes before the November window opens... France and England don't. So, indeed, it could become 4/5 matches in a row (warm up + 3 NC matches + Grand Final).
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 02:47

sk 88 wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:It is very weak I must say. Is there any wonder the REC isn’t getting anywhere when they don’t value their own competition?


He is using value in the literal sense, there is no value being created by REC. As he says in the article he wants to work with World Rugby and the 6N to develop REC commercially so that promotion and relegation between them becomes feasible.


Oh of course, I probably should have made my point a little clearer. There's a lack of commercial value from the REC because those running it aren't doing a better job of trying to make it more valuable. The vibe I get from Rugby Europe is there is no ambition within the organisation. Almost like it's accepted its fate and is not going to bother trying. A better response to this would have been something along the lines of:

"Rugby Europe is aiming to develop the REC into a competitive alternative with the goal of one day integrating with the 6 Nations to provide all of Europe with a high level international rugby competition that is open to everyone".

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 05:41

thatrugbyguy wrote:Oh of course, I probably should have made my point a little clearer. There's a lack of commercial value from the REC because those running it aren't doing a better job of trying to make it more valuable. The vibe I get from Rugby Europe is there is no ambition within the organisation. Almost like it's accepted its fate and is not going to bother trying. A better response to this would have been something along the lines of:

"Rugby Europe is aiming to develop the REC into a competitive alternative with the goal of one day integrating with the 6 Nations to provide all of Europe with a high level international rugby competition that is open to everyone".


Does anyone believe that Rugby Europe is capable of creating beneficial tournament? :D Common lets be honest. Rugby Europe is like UN, trying everything with wrong methods and lack of Power.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby antlat » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 06:17

Six Nations
Six Nations unions warned against putting tournament on pay TV
• Rights firm in alert over World Rugby’s planned Nations League
• ‘If you put a sport exclusively on pay TV, you will kill it’
The company charged with selling the broadcast and sponsorship rights to World Rugby’s proposed Nations League has warned the Six Nations unions concerned about the financial impact of relegation that jumping into bed with a private equity company and putting the tournament on pay TV would leave them far worse off.

Unions have until 5 April to say whether they are in favour of the new league, which would start in 2022. The Switzerland-based Infront Sports and Media, which would sell the rights, has guaranteed £5bn over 12 years, but with World Rugby insisting the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship be underpinned by divisions below it and promotion and relegation introduced, countries such as Ireland and Scotland fear going down would lead to financial ruin.


Six Nations unions divided over revenue and Nations Championship plans
Read more
“This is an opportunity to radically transform the game,” said Dr Christian Müller, Infront’s vice-president. “We want to make rugby more popular throughout the world, not just in higher viewing figures but by increasing engagement. If you put a sport or an event exclusively on pay TV, you will kill it.”

The Six Nations have been holding talks with four private equity companies about securing their rights for the tournament and autumn internationals. They would give up a 27% stake in return for £80m each, but would lose commercial control and could mean the championship was taken off free-to-air television.

“A fair balance between free-to-air and pay TV is required,” said Müller. “Otherwise, your exposure suffers and you make less from sponsorship because the viewing figures are not there. Look what happened to Formula 1 when it was squeezed for short-term gain and that must not happen to rugby. People are interested in sport in countries you cannot imagine, but you cannot make it more popular on pay TV.”

Relegation would not be introduced immediately and the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship mainstays have been guaranteed their current sponsorship revenues through to 2033, by which time they would be £35m better off through incremental revenues. Any nation relegated, after a play-off, would receive a parachute payment.

“It is up to World Rugby and the unions to reach agreement,” said Müller, whose company is involved with 160 sporting bodies and every major broadcaster in the world. “It is important the unions do not look for a short-term fix and we are prepared to address any of their concerns. This plan puts international rugby into a competitive framework and would make it more attractive.

“Everyone would enjoy a substantial rise in income. I understand concerns about relegation and a lot of change and disruption is not good for a sport, but with football so strong and various other forms of entertainment posing threats, rugby has to look beyond its strongholds. The strength of this plan is that it offers both income and exposure, guaranteeing stability.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ons-league

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 11:24

thatrugbyguy wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:It is very weak I must say. Is there any wonder the REC isn’t getting anywhere when they don’t value their own competition?


He is using value in the literal sense, there is no value being created by REC. As he says in the article he wants to work with World Rugby and the 6N to develop REC commercially so that promotion and relegation between them becomes feasible.


Oh of course, I probably should have made my point a little clearer. There's a lack of commercial value from the REC because those running it aren't doing a better job of trying to make it more valuable. The vibe I get from Rugby Europe is there is no ambition within the organisation. Almost like it's accepted its fate and is not going to bother trying. A better response to this would have been something along the lines of:

"Rugby Europe is aiming to develop the REC into a competitive alternative with the goal of one day integrating with the 6 Nations to provide all of Europe with a high level international rugby competition that is open to everyone".


Ok I think we can all agree with that; funnily enough that is exactly what I thought he was saying already!

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Rugga » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 11:39

Is it possible to have something like the six nations and the rugby championships being on free to air and then have the finals and relegation matches on pay tv?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 12:29

Rugga wrote:Is it possible to have something like the six nations and the rugby championships being on free to air and then have the finals and relegation matches on pay tv?


Well, that's how it's done here. The Wallabies games are simulcast on both Channel 10 (FTA provider) and Foxtel (PayTV). So it's definitely possible.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 12:36

antlat wrote:Six Nations
Six Nations unions warned against putting tournament on pay TV
• Rights firm in alert over World Rugby’s planned Nations League
• ‘If you put a sport exclusively on pay TV, you will kill it’
The company charged with selling the broadcast and sponsorship rights to World Rugby’s proposed Nations League has warned the Six Nations unions concerned about the financial impact of relegation that jumping into bed with a private equity company and putting the tournament on pay TV would leave them far worse off.

Unions have until 5 April to say whether they are in favour of the new league, which would start in 2022. The Switzerland-based Infront Sports and Media, which would sell the rights, has guaranteed £5bn over 12 years, but with World Rugby insisting the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship be underpinned by divisions below it and promotion and relegation introduced, countries such as Ireland and Scotland fear going down would lead to financial ruin.


Six Nations unions divided over revenue and Nations Championship plans
Read more
“This is an opportunity to radically transform the game,” said Dr Christian Müller, Infront’s vice-president. “We want to make rugby more popular throughout the world, not just in higher viewing figures but by increasing engagement. If you put a sport or an event exclusively on pay TV, you will kill it.”

The Six Nations have been holding talks with four private equity companies about securing their rights for the tournament and autumn internationals. They would give up a 27% stake in return for £80m each, but would lose commercial control and could mean the championship was taken off free-to-air television.

“A fair balance between free-to-air and pay TV is required,” said Müller. “Otherwise, your exposure suffers and you make less from sponsorship because the viewing figures are not there. Look what happened to Formula 1 when it was squeezed for short-term gain and that must not happen to rugby. People are interested in sport in countries you cannot imagine, but you cannot make it more popular on pay TV.”

Relegation would not be introduced immediately and the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship mainstays have been guaranteed their current sponsorship revenues through to 2033, by which time they would be £35m better off through incremental revenues. Any nation relegated, after a play-off, would receive a parachute payment.

“It is up to World Rugby and the unions to reach agreement,” said Müller, whose company is involved with 160 sporting bodies and every major broadcaster in the world. “It is important the unions do not look for a short-term fix and we are prepared to address any of their concerns. This plan puts international rugby into a competitive framework and would make it more attractive.

“Everyone would enjoy a substantial rise in income. I understand concerns about relegation and a lot of change and disruption is not good for a sport, but with football so strong and various other forms of entertainment posing threats, rugby has to look beyond its strongholds. The strength of this plan is that it offers both income and exposure, guaranteeing stability.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... ons-league


I know he's coming from the angle of his interests but the warning about being put behind a paywall is enough to be seriously concerned about the CVC offer. Super Rugby in Australia is a prime example. There was a period where FTA was an option which would have provided the competition with a lot more exposure in the competitions largest economy and most lucrative TV market. But it was less than what the paywall offer. Which we all know they took. Now, we are 20 years down the path with a fraction of the exposure of our two major competitors who enjoy mass exposure and have reaped the benefits of such with $1b+ TV deals.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 13:12

April 5? So, the future of this Championship is to be decided a mere 2 weeks away?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Grzegorz B. » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 16:01

Georgian counterproposal (according to website of Polish Rugby Union: http://www.pzrugby.pl/news/aktualnosc/GruzjaInnakoncepcjaLigiSwiatowej,5033, in Polish)

2 stages.

The first stage: three leagues x eight teams - according to the current ranking:
- I league: New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, England, South Africa, Australia, Scotland, France.
- II league: Fiji, Argentina, Japan, Georgia, Tonga, Italy, USA, Uruguay.
- III league: Samoa, Romania, Spain, Russia, Canada, Namibia, Portugal, Brazil.

Each team plays seven games (3-4 in February-March, 3-4 in June). After 7 rounds, each league divided into half.

The second stage: four groups:
- group 1 - four best teams from the 1st league
- group 2 - four weaker teams from the 1st league and four best teams from the 2nd league
- group 3 - four weaker teams from the 2nd league and four best teams from the 3rd league
- group 4 - four weaker teams from the 3rd league and four teams - candidates

Games in November. In group 1: three rematches, in other groups, four matches with teams that were not played in the same league.

Next year - again three leagues:
- I league: group 1 and 4 best teams from group 2
- II league: 4 weaker teams from group 2 and 4 best from group 3
- III league: 4 weaker teams from group 3 and 4 best from group 4

Ps. Similar on RugbyPass in English: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/georgian-rugby-community-unveils-alternative-world-league-format-to-better-help-minnow-nations
Last edited by Grzegorz B. on Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 16:05

That’s a much better format.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 17:45

Simply not viable, won't happen. If you have 6N teams in different groups those 3-4 matches in Fab-March may screw all the schedule. They are proposing to shut down the 6N :lol:
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby antlat » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 19:03

Also the Southern Hemisphere nations are not available to play matches in February and March.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby MikeN » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 22:02

JLJordaan wrote:Scrap this world league championship and scrap the automatic WC qualification (unless you are host and reigning champion). If countries have to qualify to play at the WC then you are forced to play against the T2 nations.

Also, when a T1 nation is touring in June/July and October/November you have to play at least one match against a T2 team. Be it a midweek game or a weekend game, that is up to the unions themselves. Let's say France and Georgia tours to Australia; let France play two tests against the Wallabies and a test (or two) against one of the Pacific island teams. Georgia can then play a test against the Wallabies and two tests against Fiji for example. Same can be said for a team touring the Americas or Europe.

Teams like SA, Aus, Nzl and England do not play enough tests against the T2 teams and that is the first trend that needs to be broken.


Someone please elect this guy as president of World Rugby.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Scoob » Mon, 25 Mar 2019, 02:23

Has this proposal been sent to worldrugby?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 25 Mar 2019, 05:18

I don't want to keep banging this drum but turning all international tournaments into Rugby World Cup qualifiers is the only answer to this. Let's break it down why it's the best option:

1 - It would preserve the 6N and TRC without the need for promotion/relegation
2 - It would mean T1 who don't qualify automatically from each competition have to play T2 nations in Playoffs or mini-tournament.
3 - It gives more meaning to the tournaments and test matches
4 - It allows room in the schedule for more T1 v T2 matches as some T1 nations will have to compete in Playoff matches in July or November.
eg - If Scotland and Italy have to play Playoff matches, that leaves room in the schedule for Southern Hemisphere nations to play a T2 country.
5 - Preserves the Lions tours

Back in 1998 all T1 nations who didn't qualify automatically for RWC 1999 had to play against T2/T3 teams. Australia had to play in Pacific qualifiers against the Pacific Islands. The reason it was scrapped after that was because the gulf in class was too great, and so the rules were changed for 2003 where the quarter finalists from 1999 were given automatic qualification. Fast forward 20 years and the landscape has changed. There's significantly more professionalism across the T2 and even T3 nations, which means teams are far competitive than they were back in 1998. And a more competitive Qualifying system means it becomes more valuable to broadcast and invest in. You change your international scheduled into a 3-year build up to RWC. This is how you solve the problem. It's win-win. The only issue is that T1 nations would have to give up the automatic qualification that currently stands in RWC, and to me anyway, that is a reasonable compromise for both TRC and the 6N.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 25 Mar 2019, 07:57

The Swiss infront CEO Müller talks sense though. I think there is no other way than to disrupt the 6 Nations for rugby to go forward and he is saying how it would work. Love the Georgian proposition as well, but don't think this will happen.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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