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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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6
11%
Against
50
89%
 
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 09:56

iul wrote:get Germany or Spain to the level of Italy so the 6N want them in and then have a closed off 7/8N
- sue the 6N at some EU court that deals with anti monopoly, abuse of dominant position type of stuff and ask for billions in damages. That could result in a win and opening the 6N by force or it could scare the 6N off into accepting P&R rather than risking having to pay large sums in dmages.
There are some precedents, for example Microsoft was fined a lot of money and forced to offer alternative browsers as default in Windows. They argued it's their own thing and other could build their own but they still lost. The T2s need to grow some balls and realize they won't get anything by asking nicely and that they've got nothing to lose.


Not the way to go, it would do nothing but generate bad will and that's the last thing that's needed. There's nothing stopping Rugby Europe or anyone else setting up a new European rugby tournament. Plus, with Brexit coming I doubt even would be an option.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 10:00

The League proposal (the last one) looked so attractive for Georgia.

However, I am so glad it failed. Anyway even the last version of the proposal contained a big doze of racism.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dans » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 10:10

iul wrote:^ Fantasies.

The only ways to break into the 6N are:.......


I know!...:)...but it feels good just saying it... :D
6N is a for profit organisation... you need a different approach to make them game...create constraints or develop strong alternatives.
Between 6N, WR and all others...6N is the 'daddy' through pure financial power!...

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby iul » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 10:31

thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:get Germany or Spain to the level of Italy so the 6N want them in and then have a closed off 7/8N
- sue the 6N at some EU court that deals with anti monopoly, abuse of dominant position type of stuff and ask for billions in damages. That could result in a win and opening the 6N by force or it could scare the 6N off into accepting P&R rather than risking having to pay large sums in dmages.
There are some precedents, for example Microsoft was fined a lot of money and forced to offer alternative browsers as default in Windows. They argued it's their own thing and other could build their own but they still lost. The T2s need to grow some balls and realize they won't get anything by asking nicely and that they've got nothing to lose.


Not the way to go, it would do nothing but generate bad will and that's the last thing that's needed. There's nothing stopping Rugby Europe or anyone else setting up a new European rugby tournament. Plus, with Brexit coming I doubt even would be an option.

There was nothing stopping others to make their own operating systems or getting Windows users to install their browser on their computers, yet the courts still found Microsoft's policy of only offering Internet Explorer as an option to be abuse of a dominant position.
Go to war IMO.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 10:36

Even if it was a viable option it wouldn't solve the issues that would arise.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby iul » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 10:45

thatrugbyguy wrote:Even if it was a viable option it wouldn't solve the issues that would arise.

It could obtain a decision forcing the 6N to open or it could scare the 6N into choosing to open to avoid paying damages. That right there is the solution for most of rugby's problems in Europe.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dans » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 10:50

iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:get Germany or Spain to the level of Italy so the 6N want them in and then have a closed off 7/8N
- sue the 6N at some EU court that deals with anti monopoly, abuse of dominant position type of stuff and ask for billions in damages. That could result in a win and opening the 6N by force or it could scare the 6N off into accepting P&R rather than risking having to pay large sums in dmages.
There are some precedents, for example Microsoft was fined a lot of money and forced to offer alternative browsers as default in Windows. They argued it's their own thing and other could build their own but they still lost. The T2s need to grow some balls and realize they won't get anything by asking nicely and that they've got nothing to lose.


Not the way to go, it would do nothing but generate bad will and that's the last thing that's needed. There's nothing stopping Rugby Europe or anyone else setting up a new European rugby tournament. Plus, with Brexit coming I doubt even would be an option.

There was nothing stopping others to make their own operating systems or getting Windows users to install their browser on their computers, yet the courts still found Microsoft's policy of only offering Internet Explorer as an option to be abuse of a dominant position.
Go to war IMO.



When you hear RFU saying that: "...RFU insiders fear the governing body could be forced to sell Twickenham or axe its grass-roots programme if England faced the “doomsday scenario” of relegation from 6N under World Rugby’s proposal for a new Nations Championship..."..you wonder if they will ever open the doors for relegation / promotion scenario...Scotland/Wales/Italy will always vote down any attempt every time. RFU's comments are just pretext not to happen....There is also the scenario where it opens for enlargement!...just a bigger closed shop!

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby iul » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 11:17

dans wrote:
iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:get Germany or Spain to the level of Italy so the 6N want them in and then have a closed off 7/8N
- sue the 6N at some EU court that deals with anti monopoly, abuse of dominant position type of stuff and ask for billions in damages. That could result in a win and opening the 6N by force or it could scare the 6N off into accepting P&R rather than risking having to pay large sums in dmages.
There are some precedents, for example Microsoft was fined a lot of money and forced to offer alternative browsers as default in Windows. They argued it's their own thing and other could build their own but they still lost. The T2s need to grow some balls and realize they won't get anything by asking nicely and that they've got nothing to lose.


Not the way to go, it would do nothing but generate bad will and that's the last thing that's needed. There's nothing stopping Rugby Europe or anyone else setting up a new European rugby tournament. Plus, with Brexit coming I doubt even would be an option.

There was nothing stopping others to make their own operating systems or getting Windows users to install their browser on their computers, yet the courts still found Microsoft's policy of only offering Internet Explorer as an option to be abuse of a dominant position.
Go to war IMO.



When you hear RFU saying that: "...RFU insiders fear the governing body could be forced to sell Twickenham or axe its grass-roots programme if England faced the “doomsday scenario” of relegation from 6N under World Rugby’s proposal for a new Nations Championship..."..you wonder if they will ever open the doors for relegation / promotion scenario...Scotland/Wales/Italy will always vote down any attempt every time. RFU's comments are just pretext not to happen....There is also the scenario where it opens for enlargement!...just a bigger closed shop!

Exactly. Playing nice won't get us anything. Go to war.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 11:24

antlat wrote:Well I guess when you have Rugby Europe itself against the proposal, it was bound to be doomed anyway.

How very disappointing!

Seeing that Rugby Europe is too scared that its own members are too weak to compete in the Six Nations, I hope the Rugby World Cup remains at 20 teams. If it does expand, no extra spots for Europe.


Congratulations on the worst post in this thread. :thumbup:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 11:35

iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Even if it was a viable option it wouldn't solve the issues that would arise.

It could obtain a decision forcing the 6N to open or it could scare the 6N into choosing to open to avoid paying damages. That right there is the solution for most of rugby's problems in Europe.


As Rugby Europe rightfully said, even if it was said weakly, there isn’t the structure in place below the 6N for the transition to not affect things badly. Access to the 6N is the desired result, but the division below needs to be at a certain level both in terms of competitiveness and financial security. If promotion and relegation is to be implemented the division below has to be elevated in stature. Forcing the door open is going to do nothing to fix those issues, and will risk doing more harm than good to both competitions. And besides, your Microsoft example is a bad one, tech companies are notorious for intentionally trying to kill off competitors, the 6N in contrast is under no threat from the REC or any other rugby competition in Europe, and in all honesty, probably doesn’t even think about the competition.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dans » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 12:09

thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Even if it was a viable option it wouldn't solve the issues that would arise.

It could obtain a decision forcing the 6N to open or it could scare the 6N into choosing to open to avoid paying damages. That right there is the solution for most of rugby's problems in Europe.


As Rugby Europe rightfully said, even if it was said weakly, there isn’t the structure in place below the 6N for the transition to not affect things badly. Access to the 6N is the desired result, but the division below needs to be at a certain level both in terms of competitiveness and financial security. If promotion and relegation is to be implemented the division below has to be elevated in stature. Forcing the door open is going to do nothing to fix those issues, and will risk doing more harm than good to both competitions. And besides, your Microsoft example is a bad one, tech companies are notorious for intentionally trying to kill off competitors, the 6N in contrast is under no threat from the REC or any other rugby competition in Europe, and in all honesty, probably doesn’t even think about the competition.


I am sorry but when the resources are so unequally divided, I cannot see when the 2 parts will ever come together for competitiveness and financial security!....If Spain FER budget is about £4-5M, Georgia GRU £6-7M, Russia £7-8M, Germany's DRV ~£1M, Romania FRR £1-1.2M....and on the other side England RFU £110M (!), Ireland / FR >£80M, Italy's FIR £40M...You are right about 6N feeling no threat from REC...there is none there, that's why WR is the only organisation that could/should apply that pressure...otherwise the game will be forever skewed.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 12:27

thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Even if it was a viable option it wouldn't solve the issues that would arise.

It could obtain a decision forcing the 6N to open or it could scare the 6N into choosing to open to avoid paying damages. That right there is the solution for most of rugby's problems in Europe.


As Rugby Europe rightfully said, even if it was said weakly, there isn’t the structure in place below the 6N for the transition to not affect things badly. Access to the 6N is the desired result, but the division below needs to be at a certain level both in terms of competitiveness and financial security. If promotion and relegation is to be implemented the division below has to be elevated in stature. Forcing the door open is going to do nothing to fix those issues, and will risk doing more harm than good to both competitions. And besides, your Microsoft example is a bad one, tech companies are notorious for intentionally trying to kill off competitors, the 6N in contrast is under no threat from the REC or any other rugby competition in Europe, and in all honesty, probably doesn’t even think about the competition.


You are right, but still it is a monopoly. Nobody thought that Bosman would win his case and see where we are know with sport contracts. I think the 6N themself are safe. IF somebody remember the ISU-judgment by the EU commission in 2017, Unions are free to take part in competitions organized by private or other entities. The problem we have here, is that the 6N also dominates World Rugby and therefore blocks sanctions for not taking part in continental tournaments. And that's the root of the problem. If they would take part in Euros, they can have their private tournaments as much as they want. But this problems never becomes an issue, as long as the RWC doubles up as a qualfier for the next RWC there is no need to take part in those continental competitions.

The next logical step would be
a) to close to European qualification structure, that only the lowest league can't qualify for a RWC in a qualification circle.
b) if a 6N team fails to qualify, to force them into the European league system. If they get another way apart from starting from the buttom, you've got a case.
c) if a nation doesn't take part in Euro youth rugby in 7s, block them from the Olympics.

But I can't see that happening in 2019. If only Fiji was in Italy's group (nothing personal against Italy, but they would be the obvious target nation for this)...
Also this scenario is absolutely unrealistic, because the 6N would take over Rugby Europe before you can blink.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby iul » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 12:52

thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Even if it was a viable option it wouldn't solve the issues that would arise.

It could obtain a decision forcing the 6N to open or it could scare the 6N into choosing to open to avoid paying damages. That right there is the solution for most of rugby's problems in Europe.


As Rugby Europe rightfully said, even if it was said weakly, there isn’t the structure in place below the 6N for the transition to not affect things badly. Access to the 6N is the desired result, but the division below needs to be at a certain level both in terms of competitiveness and financial security. If promotion and relegation is to be implemented the division below has to be elevated in stature. Forcing the door open is going to do nothing to fix those issues, and will risk doing more harm than good to both competitions. And besides, your Microsoft example is a bad one, tech companies are notorious for intentionally trying to kill off competitors, the 6N in contrast is under no threat from the REC or any other rugby competition in Europe, and in all honesty, probably doesn’t even think about the competition.

REIC is the 2nd division and it could receive Italy with no problems. All the problems you mentioned there would be solved by opening the 6N. You can't even imagine how much having no way to get to the top is discouraging investment and sponsorship in rugby in countries outside the 6N.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 13:57

I don’t discount that. But the problem you’ll struggle to prove is that the 6N are actively trying to prevent the REC or any alternative from gaining ground. There’s a difference between trying to prevent others from competing in the same market as you, and having no interest in helping others out, and the 6N fall into the later category. Morally bankrupt, but legally in the clear. The 6N is a monopoly by virtue of no-one having a viable alternative.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 14:01

With Pichot's proposal, the European tier 2 champion would play the bottom European team every other editiion. Why on earth do they oppose? Georgia has nothing to lose, does it?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dropkick » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 14:37

NaBUru38 wrote:With Pichot's proposal, the European tier 2 champion would play the bottom European team every other editiion. Why on earth do they oppose? Georgia has nothing to lose, does it?



But what about the other 40+ countries? There must be a better way for everyone.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 17:35

NaBUru38 wrote:With Pichot's proposal, the European tier 2 champion would play the bottom European team every other editiion. Why on earth do they oppose? Georgia has nothing to lose, does it?


1) its a one legged away play off once every 2 years.
2) they lose any and all contact to division 1 teams in the meantime.

So they lose everything to begin-with, with the small chance of gaining everything in the future. That doesn't seem like a great gamble to me.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 18:17

NaBUru38 wrote:With Pichot's proposal, the European tier 2 champion would play the bottom European team every other editiion. Why on earth do they oppose? Georgia has nothing to lose, does it?


sk 88 wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:With Pichot's proposal, the European tier 2 champion would play the bottom European team every other editiion. Why on earth do they oppose? Georgia has nothing to lose, does it?


1) its a one legged away play off once every 2 years.
2) they lose any and all contact to division 1 teams in the meantime.

So they lose everything to begin-with, with the small chance of gaining everything in the future. That doesn't seem like a great gamble to me.


Georgia will have 3 non-RWC T1 fixtures (1 home) this rugby year, if the Nations League was implemented they'd get a maximum of 3 T1 fixtures (assuming they won every edition of Europe D2) between 2020 and 2030, none of them at home. The nations league is that bad.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 18:28

NaBUru38 wrote:With Pichot's proposal, the European tier 2 champion would play the bottom European team every other editiion. Why on earth do they oppose? Georgia has nothing to lose, does it?

I was for it initially but then they started talking about one legged away playoff and It became pretty obvious that they wouldn't let you win that game. A little wet surface here, bit of a biased ref there and it's pretty much just as sealed off as it always was.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby MikeN » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 02:25

JLJordaan wrote:As much as I would want to be president/operations manager or whatever of WR, I wouldn't want to work with the council.
The fact that 60% of the council votes are made up of the T1 nations is just ridiculous. This is why automatic qualification will never be abolished since it ensures every T1 nation will almost always have a WC spot.

So any extreme changes to the qualification process that could lead to a T1 nation having to play qualifiers will simply just be dismissed.
The regional associations should have the biggest voice in making decisions. But sadly at the moment their voice is just a fart in a cyclone.

I really want to see the Springboks play in Windhoek and Nairobi; I want England to travel to Tbilisi and Moscow. I want to experience a sold out test at the Camp Nou or Maracana. An expanded World Cup, more debuting nations, new quarter finalists and a new country's name at the bottom of the William Web Ellis Cup is everything that I'm dreaming of.
But with the closed shop mentality of these T1 nations we'll never be able to experience these things.


I completely agree with your wish list and it really shouldn't be that hard to do.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby MikeN » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 02:37

dans wrote:
iul wrote:^ Fantasies.

The only ways to break into the 6N are:.......


I know!...:)...but it feels good just saying it... :D
6N is a for profit organisation... you need a different approach to make them game...create constraints or develop strong alternatives.
Between 6N, WR and all others...6N is the 'daddy' through pure financial power!...


Sorry but I'm a supporter of the 6Nations. I like the traditional side of it and would hate to see it being dismantled- and yes I know there weren't always 6 countries. It's their comp and I don't see why they should be pressured to change it.
Saying that though, I would like to see World Cup qualifiers for all but host and previous winner, and I would like to see a proper 4 yearly regional competition.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 09:08

thatrugbyguy wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Which glass ceiling do you mean? I can't remember there ever being one in soccer. And that's one of the most important point why it is so far ahead.


I'm assuming it's in reference to the British Championship which lasted up until the early 80's, which consisted of the England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland. The difference between the 6N and that championship was significantly more European nations emerged that was just as competitive or more so than the British and Irish nations. If a situation emerge in rugby whereby another 5 or 6 European nations were as good or better than most of the 6N teams a similar thing would probably happen.


The difference, to me, seems to be only three basic things.
a) no amateurism => i.e. pro league in Austria (!) in the 20ies
b) no British snobs in leading roles of the global administration (make no mistake: good that no Germans were involved either due to also being for the amateur ethos).
c) A brilliant Jules Rimet, who countered this British championship with a World Cup in 1930 (where no Brits took part until 1950 (another fact I wasn't aware until now, actually quite shocking))

Funwise I didn't even recall, that there was a so called "British Championship", it is that insignificant from a European perspective (And I was a hardcore soccer fan until I discovered rugby and even earned money writing about soccer). Also I wasn't aware why England didn't take part in the first world cups because of snobbish behaviour. Also extremely shocking tbh.

With all of this, I would say Rugby basically f** up, because they didn't counter anything that came out of Britain regarding organization from the very beginning. Imagine if they had organized a true Euro or another World Cup in the 30ies, directly when France was expelled from the 5N. But the biggest mistake was, that they called themself FIRA (International Federation of Amateur Rugby). That was the perfect time to form a pro league. WW2 only cemented the status quo, with France reentering the 5N and Vichy before that banning all pro sports.

So we are now in 2019. The sport is still kept back by protectionism of the status quo, but the pro-era has made it even more difficult to change it.
The only working step is imho a 8-12 team Euro every 4 years, to mix things up a bit and my signature. On an administrational level, slowly move to one country one vote.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 09:49

I believe it was the French who pushed for a Rugby World Cup back in the early 50's. The game would be entirely different if that happened. I don't think the World Cup would ever have been as big as FIFA's, but I'd say there would have been a decent chance a lot of the nations who are currently trying to develop would already have qualified for the World Cup multiple times by now, and we'd probably have at least 6 different winners by now.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dropkick » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 12:38

iul wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:get Germany or Spain to the level of Italy so the 6N want them in and then have a closed off 7/8N
- sue the 6N at some EU court that deals with anti monopoly, abuse of dominant position type of stuff and ask for billions in damages. That could result in a win and opening the 6N by force or it could scare the 6N off into accepting P&R rather than risking having to pay large sums in dmages.
There are some precedents, for example Microsoft was fined a lot of money and forced to offer alternative browsers as default in Windows. They argued it's their own thing and other could build their own but they still lost. The T2s need to grow some balls and realize they won't get anything by asking nicely and that they've got nothing to lose.


Not the way to go, it would do nothing but generate bad will and that's the last thing that's needed. There's nothing stopping Rugby Europe or anyone else setting up a new European rugby tournament. Plus, with Brexit coming I doubt even would be an option.

There was nothing stopping others to make their own operating systems or getting Windows users to install their browser on their computers, yet the courts still found Microsoft's policy of only offering Internet Explorer as an option to be abuse of a dominant position.
Go to war IMO.



If the 6 nations was calling itself the European cup then you might have a case. They're not hiding anything though.
Microsoft is supposed to be a free platform for all software developers but they were operating in a sneaky manner.


And that's the heart of the matter here. The 6 nations isn't Europe, it's the 6 nations. They're not claiming to represent Europe.


They should be doing more to help tier 2 nations, I agree but it's also up to T2 nations to help themselves.


The reality is every union except the French union, is under financial pressure. Helping T2 nations will unfortunately cost them money. It's a finely balanced eco system where they have to be careful of change. Scotland for instance can't afford to keep Hogg or Finn Russell and they've only 2 teams.


So you're asking 6 countries to fund the growth of European rugby when 5 are not financially well off. Soccer can expand because it's popular in all the biggest countries. If rugby was more popular in Italy, Spain, Germany, Norway, Netherlands etc then the money would be there to give much more funds to developing nations. It would create a virtuous circle like they have in soccer.


All the top countries in world rugby want to see more countries reach the top. More variety, more competition, more viewers etc. It's a professional sport and money is important especially for a complicated (to get started) game like rugby. That's the problem with getting countries up to the required level. Beating teams by 50+ points interests nobody.


So instead of attacking the 6 nations, we need to come up with solutions for tier 2 nations. A European championships would be a great start, even a scaled down to start with and see how it goes.
Another thing would be to get club/regional teams into a European league like the pro14. It could be like a pro14 Central Division and enter playoffs with the established pro14 teams at the end of the season. That way it wouldn't even need the same number of teams and it wouldn't need to start as early as the pro14.
Last edited by dropkick on Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby gambass » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 12:41

RugbyLiebe wrote:
With all of this, I would say Rugby basically f** up, because they didn't counter anything that came out of Britain regarding organization from the very beginning. Imagine if they had organized a true Euro or another World Cup in the 30ies, directly when France was expelled from the 5N. But the biggest mistake was, that they called themself FIRA (International Federation of Amateur Rugby). That was the perfect time to form a pro league. WW2 only cemented the status quo, with France reentering the 5N and Vichy before that banning all pro sports.


French rugby would never ever went that route.The only policy by the FFR during the 30's was to appease the brittish unions and to have cross-channel competitions back (5N obviously but also at clubs level).

They even sacrificed the national championship in 1939 to do so (the championsip was reintroduced in 1942 during Vichy time).

They would have prefered to commit suicide (which was more or less the case during that time) that to embrace open professionnalism and to kill for good any chance to get back into 4/5N.

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