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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Are you:

For
6
10%
Against
54
90%
 
Total votes : 60
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 10:14

The whole thing hinges on promotion-relegation. If it's included, that's a massive step forward for second tier, who at long last will have the opportunity to earn their place in the elite international championships. If it's not included, the entire concept becomes a closed shop affair which excludes the vast majority of the international rugby community - with the possible exceptions of Japan & Fiji, it seems.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 11:41

Edgar wrote:The whole thing hinges on promotion-relegation. If it's included, that's a massive step forward for second tier, who at long last will have the opportunity to earn their place in the elite international championships. If it's not included, the entire concept becomes a closed shop affair which excludes the vast majority of the international rugby community - with the possible exceptions of Japan & Fiji, it seems.


From other articles promotion/relegation would come online in two stages. The first being around 2025 for the RoTW section with the Europe would come another 3 years down the track. Personally, I think it should have been a 16 team concept from the beginning. That would have allowed for relegation to occur because it's very unlikely any of the T1 nations would be in the position to see relegation as a serious possibility in the medium term. Even then, they could put in place a pro/rel playoff game. Could even be played before the final between the bottom placed Div 1. team (after the two finalists are decided the teams are sorted into a combined table to determine a winner) and the winner of Div 2. It would have also have been more progressive but from a WR point of view world have engaged the likes of the US market in Div 1.

There would have been the same number of teams in Div 2. with revamped regional competitions (with Asia and Oceania being combined) featuring 2 pools of 4 playing home and away forming Div 3.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 16:58


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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Blurandski » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 17:19

Good news, under the San Fran agreement the following should now happen:

SANZAAR Unions committed to hosting tier two nations in July window, creating a blend of opposition
France and England to tour the Pacific Islands while USA, Canada and Japan also host tours
Georgia and Romania to host matches against Six Nations unions within the July window
Ability for rankings to determine inclusion of tier two teams in the schedule after Rugby World Cup 2019 and 2023 tournaments to ensure top emerging teams at the time are provided with tier one opportunities based on merit
Six Nations unions to collectively host a guaranteed minimum of six tier two fixtures in each November window

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 17:31

Good news indeed.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Tobar » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 18:09

Hallelujah!

Blurandski wrote:Good news, under the San Fran agreement the following should now happen:

SANZAAR Unions committed to hosting tier two nations in July window, creating a blend of opposition
France and England to tour the Pacific Islands while USA, Canada and Japan also host tours
Georgia and Romania to host matches against Six Nations unions within the July window
Ability for rankings to determine inclusion of tier two teams in the schedule after Rugby World Cup 2019 and 2023 tournaments to ensure top emerging teams at the time are provided with tier one opportunities based on merit
Six Nations unions to collectively host a guaranteed minimum of six tier two fixtures in each November window


I read that quickly and thought that this means that it will happen, not that it should happen. Hopefully!

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 18:16

Good news.

If World Rugby is serious about helping the global game there is so much they could do, particularly in Europe.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Tobar » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 18:54

sk 88 wrote:Good news.

If World Rugby is serious about helping the global game there is so much they could do, particularly in Europe.


Seriously, they have such an advantage with proximity to the Home Nations and France as well as each other. The ability to host au18, u20, A side, etc. matches is significantly easier than in Asia or Africa.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 19:05

Thanks God it was discontinued.

After all the World Rugby maintains its image of the democratic organization.

I believe small nations (including Georgia) played a very positive role in making a barrier for 6N's terrible plans.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 20:06

& I'm guessing promotion-relegation was the main sticking point. If so, it's definitely good news that World Rugby pulled out. We don't need a stratification of the Autumn tours. They've developed into one of the highlights of the international season and probably the best chance for tier 2 sides to get a game or two against the tier 1s.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby antlat » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 20:51

I am bitterly disappointed. The Nations Championship with promotion and relegation from the start in both sections was a great idea.

Alas, it's not to be.

Hopefully creating all encompassing Regional Championships with qualification tournaments and the removal of multiple divisions is the next focus.

The new Africa Cup is a good start.

I must be the only person in the world who finds playing the same opposition three times in June utterly boring. Let's hope the tier two nations do receive the matches promised in the San Francisco agreement.

However, with financial difficulties facing the Southern Hemispheres tier ones, I bet they will find a way to weasel out of it, with the exception of adding Japan and Fiji to a revised Rugby Championship.

Can't help but feel a huge opportunity has been missed by the rugby world

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 21:02

The new Africa Cup is a good start.


Has a new Africa Cup been announced? I understood it was just a World Cup qualifying schedule to be played next year. There is the Victoria Cup, of course, which is only a 4-team invitational.


I like the idea of World Rugby wresting control away from the 6 Nations and SANZAAR, but it seems they failed to do that.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 21:09

This doesn't mean SANZAAR won't want to expand The Rugby Championship, right? They definitly should have Japan in the tournament anyway.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Edgar » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 21:17

victorsra wrote:This doesn't mean SANZAAR won't want to expand The Rugby Championship, right? They definitly should have Japan in the tournament anyway.


Personally I'd rather see SANZAAR stick to the Southern Hemisphere. That's a heck of a region, as it is, but at least it provides some kind of geographical identity. Remove that and you're left with a meaningless circus; a dumping ground for non-European teams, basically. Super Rugby already made that mistake with the Sunwolves. & South Africa is basically the antipodes of the Far East, so for them it makes about as much sense as Australia joining the 6 Nations. If there is to be expansion, it would be to the Pacific Islands, starting with Fiji, of course. Probably that would require a single round of games, which wouldn't be a bad thing, IMHO. :thumbup:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Wed, 19 Jun 2019, 23:00

Super Rugby I agree it is madness to cross the globe. But the Rugby Championship is very different, as it is short with bye weekends in the middle. There as 2 arguments:

- SANZAAR needs Asian money. If they ignore that region, they'd never be able to compete with Europe. Now they have kicked the Sunwolves out of Super Rugby, they need to keep Japan somehow involved, it is not sure to turn the back to such huge market where rugby is already a thing;

- The Rugby Championship is incredibly boring with home and away format. Everybody knows NZ will win. But with only one match against each team you have a more exciting run for the title. This means 5 teams can provide 2 home and 2 away matches. The product would be much better and with better TV contracts, as audiences would grow with the Japanese market. And this is what realy matters for the almost bankrupt SANZAAR unions.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Tobar » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 00:45

victorsra wrote:Super Rugby I agree it is madness to cross the globe. But the Rugby Championship is very different, as it is short with bye weekends in the middle. There as 2 arguments:

- SANZAAR needs Asian money. If they ignore that region, they'd never be able to compete with Europe. Now they have kicked the Sunwolves out of Super Rugby, they need to keep Japan somehow involved, it is not sure to turn the back to such huge market where rugby is already a thing;

- The Rugby Championship is incredibly boring with home and away format. Everybody knows NZ will win. But with only one match against each team you have a more exciting run for the title. This means 5 teams can provide 2 home and 2 away matches. The product would be much better and with better TV contracts, as audiences would grow with the Japanese market. And this is what realy matters for the almost bankrupt SANZAAR unions.


Yes. Japan is already restructuring its domestic competition (somehow) and will surely grow stronger with admittance into TRC. Popularity for the sport will already be growing exponentially after this year with the RWC so it’s critical to take advantage of that. Essentially kicking out the Sunwolves is not how you do that.

So you have one of the biggest sports TV markets hosting the biggest rugby tournament. You have to do something to get them involved otherwise all that potential can be lost.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby MikeN » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 03:24

antlat wrote:I am bitterly disappointed. The Nations Championship with promotion and relegation from the start in both sections was a great idea.

Alas, it's not to be.

Hopefully creating all encompassing Regional Championships with qualification tournaments and the removal of multiple divisions is the next focus.

The new Africa Cup is a good start.

I must be the only person in the world who finds playing the same opposition three times in June utterly boring. Let's hope the tier two nations do receive the matches promised in the San Francisco agreement.

However, with financial difficulties facing the Southern Hemispheres tier ones, I bet they will find a way to weasel out of it, with the exception of adding Japan and Fiji to a revised Rugby Championship.

Can't help but feel a huge opportunity has been missed by the rugby world


No you are correct, it is boring. But that was not the way to solve it.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 05:17

Well, on the one hand I'm glad this nonsense is over. The existing plan is better for T2 nations in that regard. On the other hand, I think there was a lost opportunity here. I can't help but think they wasted all this time on a proposal that was doomed from the start and that more sensible alternatives were staring them right in the face the whole time. A 10 team league were every nations plays every other nations was never going to be welcomed, not by fans, not by players, not by unions, it was a doomed idea from the beginning.

Where to from here? I don't know. The Rugby Championship nations are going to have to look for an alternative source of income, and I strongly believe a lot will come from Asia. I don't think that means Japan will automatically join the RC, but I do believe there will be an increase in matches played in Japan over the next 10 years. I also think the possibility exists of matches in the US and Canada becoming more and more frequent. If the US continue to improve then the likelihood of regular games against the All Blacks and Wallabies as part of the November tours increases.

As for World Rugby. Well, the lesson they've learned here is that this World League concept, at least in the form they presented, simply wasn't ready. There was too much at stake for the likes of Scotland, France, Italy, etc, to be relegated into a second division where there was little in the way of support and revenue. On that front I can't blame them for rejecting this idea. It would be a completely different situation if a European second division was financially lucrative and competitive enough where it would only affect their finances minimally, but the REC is nowhere near that level.

So what to do? To put it simply, if World Rugby want to make this concept work they have to invest in these second tier divisions, The Rugby Europe Championship, the Americas Rugby Championship, an Asia/Pacific 6 Nations, the African Gold Cup, find investors and put people in charge who know how to run these competitions professionally. Work on elevating these secondary competitions to a more elite level and promote the hell out of them. Get them to a stage where they are just as much a part of the rugby calendar as the 6N, the RC, Lions Tours, the World Cup, etc. At the moment, most people in the rugby community don't even know these competitions exist. Work on this for 10 years and then try this proposal again. If we can get a solid group of 35-40 nations in region competitions that are competitive, professionally run, elite, and generating money and exposure for the game then the idea of promotion and relegation becomes less of an issue. But that's just what I would do.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Silver Fox » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 07:50

Hallelujah, thank God that it is off the table.

Note that WR prominently state in their article that:
The core objective of the Nations Championship was to secure
- a strong and sustainable financial and competition model for unions,
- provide for the first time a meaningful competition pathway for all emerging nations,
- further inject excitement into the international game for fans and broadcasters and
- develop new markets for the betterment of all.

Then Sanzaar and particularly Australia only focussed on "a strong financial model", sacrificing all the other objectives.
They shot themselves in the foot by taking the plans in a direction that made the 6N and the RC part of the competition.
The 6N were right to object.

And I am glad Pichot kept his word:
a lack of consensus on key issues, particularly the timing and format of promotion and relegation, left World Rugby with no alternative but to discontinue the project.

In the end it was a bad plan:
- not sustainable, in that it would not change why certain nations are in financial problems
- no pathway for T2 nations. More the opposite, a widening gap between the haves and the have nots.
- a boring repetitive competition with all the T1 nations playing themselves and only themselves, year in your out.
- taking away from the significance of the 6N, RC and the World Cup
- difficulties to make it fit in the available windows

It will probably leave Australia in a state of panic about what to do now but from a T2 point of view this is for the better.
Better to take the time to rethink the situation than to go for a very bad plan.

The only thing that will be missed in the years to come is the money to reform the second tier divisions.
I agree with thatrugbyguy that the whole situation shows that in the end things will be easier if more T2 nations are nearing T1 standards, especially off the pitch.
To me it is clear again that stronger T2 nations are not a threat for T1's but a necessity.
But where to find the money for this now?

It seems Infront are still willing to invest in some form.
I hope that Pichot and Infront will revisite the other ideas and take their time to prepare better before taking it into the open again.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 09:23

Infront STILL can invest into July and November tests --
those clearly lack format and MEANING

And they still CAN form minimum two-level, MEANING'ful GLOBAL comp --
North VS South thru those tests, with promotion-relegation

Initially, exactly this was meant but then GREEDY giants
put forward inclusion of 6N and 4N, and spoiled the entire project

:::

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 10:49

Ok, now please comeback to the previous deal:
"Record minimum of 110 tier one v tier two matches over the period as emerging rugby nations are integrated into the schedule throughout the period (a 39 per cent increase on the previous schedule)
SANZAAR Unions committed to hosting tier two nations in July window, creating a blend of opposition
France and England to tour the Pacific Islands while USA, Canada and Japan also host tours
Georgia and Romania to host matches against Six Nations unions within the July window
Ability for rankings to determine inclusion of tier two teams in the schedule after Rugby World Cup 2019 and 2023 tournaments to ensure top emerging teams at the time are provided with tier one opportunities based on merit
Six Nations unions to collectively host a guaranteed minimum of six tier two fixtures in each November window"

yeah...wait for it.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby dwpeate » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 20:03

Do we think SANZAR will still want to expand to the big markets in the US and Japan?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Tobar » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 20:49

dwpeate wrote:Do we think SANZAR will still want to expand to the big markets in the US and Japan?


Japan discussed a bit above. The US is likely in the books for future plans but at this time we just can't hang with the big boys. Someone suggested that there will be more regular RC matches held in Japan but not involving Japan, which totally sounds like something SANZAAR would do.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 21 Jun 2019, 02:40

I think that's likely to happen.


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