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Country of origin

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Re: Country of origin

Postby gibbs » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 14:22

RugbyLiebe wrote:
gibbs wrote:Lol.. Just look at the numbers for the number 1 and 2 ranked teams from Asia

Japan 11
Hong Kong 17 !!!!..

Add to that exclusive expat laden teams like the Philippines, UAE and Lebanon.. Asian Rugby is a farce run by old time Brits from Hong Kong.. Unfortunately teams like Malaysia seems to be going that way as well.. 2019 WC will basically will be hosted in Asia with little Asian participation


I think that you can't talk about a farce, when your nation is willingly creating even a bigger farce by not playing a single game.


Well Sri Lanka is a third world shit hole governed by typical third world politicians and everything is politicized including sports and Rugby, Granted.. But this subject is about how unions disgustingly manipulate player eligibility rules and my interest in in the Asian Unions more specifically Asian Rugby which is basically run by the HKRFU have been running a farce now for the benefit of leftover colonists for ages

So if you can stick to the subject matter it would be more constructive after all this is the tier 2/3 forum not the tier 1's.. If you're indeed interested in corruption and totally inept administration of Sri Lanka Rugby you're most welcome to discuss it in the Lankan Rugby thread

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Re: Country of origin

Postby 4N » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 15:59

gibbs wrote:Add to that exclusive expat laden teams like the Philippines, UAE and Lebanon.. Asian Rugby is a farce run by old time Brits from Hong Kong.. Unfortunately teams like Malaysia seems to be going that way as well.. 2019 WC will basically will be hosted in Asia with little Asian participation


There’s a big difference between UAE and Lebanon. Most of the Lebanese team speak Arabic and have parents or grandparents from the country. In rugby terms they’re more like Samoa.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 16:13

Thomas wrote:Why did Pichot publish it ? The research has not been properly done. There are enough issues in Argentina to worry about rather than publish some stats with incomplete data.

carbonero wrote:Argentina’s 0% isn’t true as well. Sebastian Cancelliere was born in the US. I thought this corner of place of birth was only reserved for numbnuts like Paul Tait.

Why he did it? He wants to go after the grandparent rule. However, he shot himself in the foot. Now he is running out of political capital.

I don't think he made a mistake. In the end it doesn't matter, people is talking about this topic even two or three weeks later.

And hey, I'm glad that this is an eye-opener for some mainstream fans who think only a few countries are filled with foreign-born players just because all their players haven't got the same ethnical background while the reality is this is a widespread practice.

But I'm angry they all forget to put us in the lead and at the top of every list, it would be the only way to win something :D

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Re: Country of origin

Postby Tobar » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 19:10

carbonero wrote:He makes the lists about the birthplace of players before every major tournament which is the least nuanced way to approach this topic. Also, he supported Pichot’s tweet saying “the data is not accurate though the message sure is”. Give me a break


He said:

Calling it oversimplified and incorrect based on Harley and Watson is fair but Nel, Dell, Maitland and Thomson? Not exactly Scottish produce.


He’s just saying that the data wasn’t correct and not detailed enough for proper discussion. But those 3 players are not products of Scottish setup. I don’t see that as supporting the tweet in any way.

If you read the rest of his tweets around that he’s mostly complaining about eligibility rules and relating them back to Spain’s disqualification.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby carbonero » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 20:47

Fair enough. But bringing up Spain doesn’t make sense. Equating Belie with Stander or Shields is disingenuous. One was capped tied. The others weren’t. Spain was disqualified because their management didn’t know the eligibility regulations. Inexcusable when their whole qualification campaign was based around heritage players.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby Tobar » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 22:13

Yeah but whatever his logic it just went on to a rant about eligibility laws which is related. Paul has been one of the best (if not only) sources of English media around SA rugby so I take some issue with calling him a numbnuts over something like this.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby 4N » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 22:42

FWIW Paul Tait is one of the nicest guys in the rugby community, regardless of how you feel about his views.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby carbonero » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 22:52

Nah. He is a glorified news aggregator. The sources are Portal do Rugby in Brazil, Ignacio Chans in Uruguay and La Nación, ESPN and Olé in Argentina.

ARN’s North American coverage is far superior.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby ShyLockNo5 » Mon, 17 Dec 2018, 07:25

gibbs wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
gibbs wrote:Lol.. Just look at the numbers for the number 1 and 2 ranked teams from Asia

Japan 11
Hong Kong 17 !!!!..

Add to that exclusive expat laden teams like the Philippines, UAE and Lebanon.. Asian Rugby is a farce run by old time Brits from Hong Kong.. Unfortunately teams like Malaysia seems to be going that way as well.. 2019 WC will basically will be hosted in Asia with little Asian participation


I think that you can't talk about a farce, when your nation is willingly creating even a bigger farce by not playing a single game.


Well Sri Lanka is a third world shit hole governed by typical third world politicians and everything is politicized including sports and Rugby, Granted.. But this subject is about how unions disgustingly manipulate player eligibility rules and my interest in in the Asian Unions more specifically Asian Rugby which is basically run by the HKRFU have been running a farce now for the benefit of leftover colonists for ages

So if you can stick to the subject matter it would be more constructive after all this is the tier 2/3 forum not the tier 1's.. If you're indeed interested in corruption and totally inept administration of Sri Lanka Rugby you're most welcome to discuss it in the Lankan Rugby thread


Take it easy, buddy. I think his point was that countries like Sri Lanka, where rugby union is popular, should do more for the game in Asia. One way is to organise more games and even tournaments, perhaps with Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Madagascar.
Sri Lanka is one of the few genuine rugby strongholds in Asia. Pity it hasn't got stronger, but, yes, that's the fault of the various inept/corrupt administrators running around in Asian rugby. Most of them are in it for the access to tickets.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 17 Dec 2018, 09:28

ShyLockNo5 wrote:
gibbs wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
gibbs wrote:Lol.. Just look at the numbers for the number 1 and 2 ranked teams from Asia

Japan 11
Hong Kong 17 !!!!..

Add to that exclusive expat laden teams like the Philippines, UAE and Lebanon.. Asian Rugby is a farce run by old time Brits from Hong Kong.. Unfortunately teams like Malaysia seems to be going that way as well.. 2019 WC will basically will be hosted in Asia with little Asian participation


I think that you can't talk about a farce, when your nation is willingly creating even a bigger farce by not playing a single game.


Well Sri Lanka is a third world shit hole governed by typical third world politicians and everything is politicized including sports and Rugby, Granted.. But this subject is about how unions disgustingly manipulate player eligibility rules and my interest in in the Asian Unions more specifically Asian Rugby which is basically run by the HKRFU have been running a farce now for the benefit of leftover colonists for ages

So if you can stick to the subject matter it would be more constructive after all this is the tier 2/3 forum not the tier 1's.. If you're indeed interested in corruption and totally inept administration of Sri Lanka Rugby you're most welcome to discuss it in the Lankan Rugby thread


Take it easy, buddy. I think his point was that countries like Sri Lanka, where rugby union is popular, should do more for the game in Asia. One way is to organise more games and even tournaments, perhaps with Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Madagascar.
Sri Lanka is one of the few genuine rugby strongholds in Asia. Pity it hasn't got stronger, but, yes, that's the fault of the various inept/corrupt administrators running around in Asian rugby. Most of them are in it for the access to tickets.


I concur with @ShyLockNo5.

@gibbs The problem is that your no "a foreign born player is cheating" simply doesn't work in the globalized world we have now. There is a strong movement to the rich countries and off course they need to integrate those players. For most of those players playing rugby abroad is more an adventure than a serious career option at first.

Take German's number 9 Armstrong. He came to Germany 10-12 years ago as a young guy. With the intention of playing a bit of rugby and seeing the world. He liked it, he stayed longer than planned, he found his mrs, he played for the national team, he (if I'm not mistaken) became a German citizen, his kid(s) are born here. And that's a regular thing in richer rugby tier2+3 nations. Most even didn't come for rugby but for study reasons. So what's bad about if you feel at home somewhere else?

Is it a problem with t1 nations? Maybe. But way smaller than suggested.>

Nations like Sri Lanka should concentrate more on growing their own game and playing more test matches.
I also know exactly were this thinking comes from. I personally used to complain when we played a second team, who had a first team one league up. Until I realized, and it took me some years, that even when they had some first team players in their squad, you still need to beat this team if you want to get better or even get promoted. If you can't beat this team, there is no need to complain. So as long as you can't beat those Malaysian Fijis (which have made no impact whatsoever on a global scale) you won't be good enough to go the next stage anyway.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby ShyLockNo5 » Mon, 17 Dec 2018, 12:33

RugbyLiebe wrote:
ShyLockNo5 wrote:
gibbs wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
gibbs wrote:Lol.. Just look at the numbers for the number 1 and 2 ranked teams from Asia

Japan 11
Hong Kong 17 !!!!..

Add to that exclusive expat laden teams like the Philippines, UAE and Lebanon.. Asian Rugby is a farce run by old time Brits from Hong Kong.. Unfortunately teams like Malaysia seems to be going that way as well.. 2019 WC will basically will be hosted in Asia with little Asian participation


I think that you can't talk about a farce, when your nation is willingly creating even a bigger farce by not playing a single game.


Well Sri Lanka is a third world shit hole governed by typical third world politicians and everything is politicized including sports and Rugby, Granted.. But this subject is about how unions disgustingly manipulate player eligibility rules and my interest in in the Asian Unions more specifically Asian Rugby which is basically run by the HKRFU have been running a farce now for the benefit of leftover colonists for ages

So if you can stick to the subject matter it would be more constructive after all this is the tier 2/3 forum not the tier 1's.. If you're indeed interested in corruption and totally inept administration of Sri Lanka Rugby you're most welcome to discuss it in the Lankan Rugby thread


Take it easy, buddy. I think his point was that countries like Sri Lanka, where rugby union is popular, should do more for the game in Asia. One way is to organise more games and even tournaments, perhaps with Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Madagascar.
Sri Lanka is one of the few genuine rugby strongholds in Asia. Pity it hasn't got stronger, but, yes, that's the fault of the various inept/corrupt administrators running around in Asian rugby. Most of them are in it for the access to tickets.


I concur with @ShyLockNo5.

@gibbs The problem is that your no "a foreign born player is cheating" simply doesn't work in the globalized world we have now. There is a strong movement to the rich countries and off course they need to integrate those players. For most of those players playing rugby abroad is more an adventure than a serious career option at first.

Take German's number 9 Armstrong. He came to Germany 10-12 years ago as a young guy. With the intention of playing a bit of rugby and seeing the world. He liked it, he stayed longer than planned, he found his mrs, he played for the national team, he (if I'm not mistaken) became a German citizen, his kid(s) are born here. And that's a regular thing in richer rugby tier2+3 nations. Most even didn't come for rugby but for study reasons. So what's bad about if you feel at home somewhere else?

Is it a problem with t1 nations? Maybe. But way smaller than suggested.>

Nations like Sri Lanka should concentrate more on growing their own game and playing more test matches.
I also know exactly were this thinking comes from. I personally used to complain when we played a second team, who had a first team one league up. Until I realized, and it took me some years, that even when they had some first team players in their squad, you still need to beat this team if you want to get better or even get promoted. If you can't beat this team, there is no need to complain. So as long as you can't beat those Malaysian Fijis (which have made no impact whatsoever on a global scale) you won't be good enough to go the next stage anyway.


Sri Lanka themselves used to field a couple of Fijians in the national team about 15-20 years ago. There was a lot of opposition to any team fielding non-locals in the Asian Championships: Thailand, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Taiwan and Korea used to oppose while HK< Japan and Singapore had no issue with it as it was within the IRB rules.

I agree with the notion that you just have to improve and it doesnt matter what players your opponents have. Just go out and beat them. It's different if Malaysia had, say, the Underwood brothers and Brian Moore playing for them. Technically of course they could have fielded them.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 18 Dec 2018, 18:19

I'm a Wikipedia, so an information aggregator. Proud if it.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby Tobar » Tue, 18 Dec 2018, 18:47

carbonero wrote:Nah. He is a glorified news aggregator. The sources are Portal do Rugby in Brazil, Ignacio Chans in Uruguay and La Nación, ESPN and Olé in Argentina.

ARN’s North American coverage is far superior.


They get me more news on SA rugby than I would ever have elsewhere. Maybe you get all of these other sources but I don't (though I can understand enough Spanish to get by). Being a news aggregator isn't a terrible thing considering he also inputs his own opinion. You don't like him, that's fine, odd to have such a bone to pick with a guy.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 08:20

Tobar wrote:
carbonero wrote:Nah. He is a glorified news aggregator. The sources are Portal do Rugby in Brazil, Ignacio Chans in Uruguay and La Nación, ESPN and Olé in Argentina.

ARN’s North American coverage is far superior.


They get me more news on SA rugby than I would ever have elsewhere. Maybe you get all of these other sources but I don't (though I can understand enough Spanish to get by). Being a news aggregator isn't a terrible thing considering he also inputs his own opinion. You don't like him, that's fine, odd to have such a bone to pick with a guy.


Well that's exactly what newspapers always did. Get some news from different sources and then publish, often republish them. It is not that in former times news just magically appeared in the newspaper building. The reports, everybody thinks what newspapers mainly do, are only a very tiny fraction of a newspaper. Transfer this to the modern world and I see nothing wrong with that.
This site does an extremely good job at providing news non-portuguese and non-spanish speakers wouldn't understand to the way bigger English speaking world.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby carbonero » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 03:12

I’m fine with the aggregation. The problem is when he veers away from it. This thread is about eligibility. Most of his views on this topic are extreme. I don’t think we should take pride of lacking foreign born players in our team. It is a meaningless stat.

As you said, he is your only source for rugby in the region. You could say that he is kind of representing us. And I don’t think that his op-eds, twitter scuffles and blatant homerism paint us in a good light.

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Re: Country of origin

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 08:37

@carbanero

I think he actually paints you in a very active and going forward way. This foreigner raffle is more seen as grumbling of a poorer nation with next to no immigrants recently. And as a nice point to start banter against big nations with a lot of money and people coming in.

I don't think it is a meaningless stat though. The eligibility rules are there because of the Home Nations. That is the only reason why we don't have passports as the most simple and proofable eligibility rule. While in soccer everyone just showed the Home Nations the middle finger and said: "that's your problem, solve it or play as Great Britain", in rugby they are the one in charge for everyone and their small world often ends with the channel.

So the agenda behind those numbers is imho to change the eligibility rules for the better. And the 5-year-rule (even coming from a country heavily profiting from foreign born players) is a step in the right direction.

So don't be that harsh, he does a good job.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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