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Brexit and its effect on rugby

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Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 12:34

The German rugby-hub totalrugby.de just had a story about the potential consequences of the Brexit. I would be glad if we don't discuss about if the Brexit is right or wrong, but solely about its effect on rugby, as I think those are really interesting and could mean a big change.

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/9722/36/

Interesting facts I wasn't aware at all, is that players from Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, South Africa, Namibia und Kenya are seen as non-foreigners, as those countries are associated with the EU over the so-called Cotonou agreement (another thing I've never heard about before).

So if there is a hard-Brexit on March 29th, those players fall under the only 2 foreigners per team rule. So they would need to change that to keep the status quo.

Totalrugby speculates if this would lead the British teams to be less competitive. Also the hard-Brexit would be directly before the quarter-finals in the Champions Cup and this could lead to travelling fans needing a visa to cross the channel. Also the Pro14 with teams from 3 countries might have big problems - also the Irish national team with players from two countries.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 13:12

I assume World Rugby and EPCR will release some sort of provisional agreement that allows the British teams to finish the 2018-19 season with their current squads.

The major imediate problem I guess will be Champions Cup visas... Maybe it would be wise EPCR antecipate in 1 week the QFs round... they can do it now, there is room for that.

It is PRO14 that needs to worry more.

National teams will have time until their next matches to solve this.
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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby suofficer » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 13:19

Firstly if I get deported I will gladly get involved in the FPR. I believe this to be the single most important outcome of Brexit. Surprised the media haven't picked up on in yet really.

Secondly here is quite a good article https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-huge-implications-for-english-rugby-posed-by-brexit-that-no-one-is-talking-about-it/

Thirdly It won't be down to any other governing body about work eligibility or migration status, only the UK govt (sadly)

Lastly, this wont be overnight. There will be adequate time to work towards a way to keep things going.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 13:27

Thirdly It won't be down to any other governing body about work eligibility or migration status, only the UK govt (sadly)


I mean the number of foreign players accepted in each league. But in fact I don't have a clue about how does it work... how?
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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 13:47

The RFU have already announced that any "Kolpak" players (those excluded from quotas due to Cotonou agreement) will retain their special status until the end of this season at least.

European regulations appear to be very wishy-washy and simply refer to "European" players. Given we have had Russian sides full of Russians play with no problem this clearly does not mean "EU", so how that would be interpreted would be interesting.

I hope it leads to the 2 "foreigner" rule in English rugby being scrapped. The Kolpak players always made it a farce anyway and with the EQP targets we have a much more positive way of achieving the same goals. This is certainly the time for these changes to be made if nothing else changes regarding Brexit.

Practically the biggest effect, should it happen, will be on the PRO14's week to week schedule. I'd imagine teams import and export large amounts of medical supplies for each match they play, so it may be that the WRU & SRU set up a base in Ireland, and the IRFU set one up in somewhere like Manchester, to store their own equipment "on site" at least for the April and May matches.

Or does the home side supply all of that for both sides?

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby armchair_expert » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 14:30

Cotonou agreement expires in 2020, so the future of players from SA/Fiji/Samoa/Tonga in Europe will be in doubt regardless of Brexit.

EPCR eligibility rules will not be affected by Brexit:

all matchday squads must be compliant with the regulation on the basis that the definition of 'European' as defined by the Cotonou Agreement is as shown below which is a treaty signed by the European Union and therefore, not defined by EPCR unilaterally. That definition is below:

A European player is…

A national of:

1. a Member State of the European Union, or the European Economic Area, or of a state with which the European Community has entered into an agreement that includes directly effective provisions conferring equivalent rights of non-discrimination against that state's nationals within the European Union. Usually, all players except Australians, New Zealanders, and North and South Americans (however, many of these players qualify through points 2 and 4 below).

2. See Cotonou Agreement between EU and African, Caribbean and Pacific Group of States (78 countries) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotonou_Agreement

3. a state whose national rugby union or federation is a member of Rugby Europe, or

4. has completed 36 consecutive months of residence in the country of the Union which has jurisdiction over his club, or

5. pursuant to Regulation 8 of World Rugby regulation, is eligible to play for the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team, the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or the senior National Representative Sevens Team (as those terms are used in those regulations) of a Union or federation that is a member of Rugby Europe.


RFU eligibilty rules are explained here: https://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Documen ... eutral.pdf

sk 88 wrote:Given we have had Russian sides full of Russians play with no problem this clearly does not mean "EU", so how that would be interpreted would be interesting.

EU/EEA membership or non-membership is irrelevant here as there is a bilateral agreement which has an article about non-discrimination of workers. Explained in the Simutenkov case.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 14:40

Or does the home side supply all of that for both sides?

Maybe the league itself could help with 2 offices (therefore, PRO14 could set a league's office in UK, as they are based in Ireland)... Teams buy whatever they need and supplies managers in each base send it to the matches. No big deal.
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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 16:14

armchair_expert wrote:2. See Cotonou Agreement between EU and African, Caribbean and Pacific Group of States (78 countries) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotonou_Agreement

3. a state whose national rugby union or federation is a member of Rugby Europe, or


Good finds and explanations. This means that a Russian club could in theory field a team of South Africans in the Challenge Cup, because the Cotonou agreement applies to every participant of the Champions and Challenge Cup alike.


victorsra wrote:Maybe the league itself could help with 2 offices (therefore, PRO14 could set a league's office in UK, as they are based in Ireland)... Teams buy whatever they need and supplies managers in each base send it to the matches. No big deal.


That's actually another good thought. It basically also means, that this won't effect Ireland a lot as the players are employed by the IRFU, who also resides in Dublin. Visas might still be a problem for some, but the vast majority of Irish qualified players will simply get an Irish passport. Most should have one anyway. So basically only the Welsh and Scottish federation need a side office in Dublin who signs the contracts. Voila, EU-based employees. There are so many "tax optimization specialists" in Britain, they will find somebody to set this up for another purpose.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 19:36

RugbyLiebe wrote:
armchair_expert wrote:2. See Cotonou Agreement between EU and African, Caribbean and Pacific Group of States (78 countries) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotonou_Agreement

3. a state whose national rugby union or federation is a member of Rugby Europe, or


Good finds and explanations. This means that a Russian club could in theory field a team of South Africans in the Challenge Cup, because the Cotonou agreement applies to every participant of the Champions and Challenge Cup alike.


victorsra wrote:Maybe the league itself could help with 2 offices (therefore, PRO14 could set a league's office in UK, as they are based in Ireland)... Teams buy whatever they need and supplies managers in each base send it to the matches. No big deal.


That's actually another good thought. It basically also means, that this won't effect Ireland a lot as the players are employed by the IRFU, who also resides in Dublin. Visas might still be a problem for some, but the vast majority of Irish qualified players will simply get an Irish passport. Most should have one anyway. So basically only the Welsh and Scottish federation need a side office in Dublin who signs the contracts. Voila, EU-based employees. There are so many "tax optimization specialists" in Britain, they will find somebody to set this up for another purpose.



I dunno about that.

Its not really how Northern Irish people work. If they're unionist I really doubt they'd get an Irish passport under any circumstances.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 17 Jan 2019, 20:12

Aren't Northern Irish people born with the option to have 2 passports? Or am I mistaken?

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby dropkick » Fri, 18 Jan 2019, 03:08

Tobar wrote:Aren't Northern Irish people born with the option to have 2 passports? Or am I mistaken?



Yes. The rugby players from NI are almost all from a unionist background but I'd say most of them would have no problem having both passports. Most who would have a problem would be soccer fans.


The whole Brexit thing is scare mongering anyway. There might be some short term pain but it's not like Britain wasn't an independent country before.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby Grzegorz B. » Fri, 18 Jan 2019, 07:54

There can be big problem for Ulster Rugby - the province covers parts of both UK and Ireland.
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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 18 Jan 2019, 08:32

dropkick wrote:The whole Brexit thing is scare mongering anyway. There might be some short term pain but it's not like Britain wasn't an independent country before.


Please leave speculations about Britain as a whole out of this thread, only effects on rugby. (and yes I am atm biting my tongue to not answer you).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 18 Jan 2019, 23:31

RugbyLiebe wrote: I am atm biting my tongue to not answer you



Me too. Brexit will affect my family very directly.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby dropkick » Sat, 19 Jan 2019, 05:48

RugbyLiebe wrote:
dropkick wrote:The whole Brexit thing is scare mongering anyway. There might be some short term pain but it's not like Britain wasn't an independent country before.


Please leave speculations about Britain as a whole out of this thread, only effects on rugby. (and yes I am atm biting my tongue to not answer you).



Do you want to tell me more inaccurate facts about my own country?

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby NedRugby » Sat, 19 Jan 2019, 10:06

Is Britain your country then? I assumed you were Irish.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 10:26

NedRugby wrote:Is Britain your country then? I assumed you were Irish.


Nah, he is probably still angry at me, that I stated some months ago that Ireland until lots of EU-money poured in, was a poor house and didn't even have proper roads in the 90ies.
This combined with the lack of knowledge, that a "proper road" for a German can only be a motorway which basically connects you to every city over 100k in the whole country directly, lead to him writing this.

Happy enough for me. The world is full of all different colours.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby amz » Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 11:10

dropkick wrote:The whole Brexit thing is scare mongering anyway. There might be some short term pain but it's not like Britain wasn't an independent country before.


:lol: :lol:

I don't think Brexit will eventually happen. Being an intelligent and creative nation of global "navigators" and "explorers" who have led the world for a century (between the French and the American Century) with the perfect sense of direction and orientation in space and time and with great political spirits in their history, but with caution and skepticism about "revolutions" of any kind, I thin the British will realize sooner or later that this time they are headed in the wrong direction and that they have been tricked by clowns like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage . I have no doubt that at some point they will say Stop this poor, sub-mediocre game made by the United Kingdom in 2016, disappointing first of all for their own fellow citizens who have been deluded by the illusion that Britain could become the center of the world, after leaving the European Union, as it was in Queen Victoria's time. I just hope that moment of awakening might come too late to stop Brexit. At this moment there will be 1 year postponement after the vote 202-432 which was the most severe defeat of a British government throughout the modern history of the Kingdom. I remain optimistic that this can be undo.

As for rugby, there will be hardly an influence, UK has its own system and closed shop and for Ulster a way will be found. It's a pointless discussion.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 14:05

Are there any other sports concerned?

Obviously I can think about Uefa Champions League, that has the QFs from April 9th. I am not following soccer's discussions about this issue. What are they saying?

And of course French Rugby League sides Catalan Dragons and Toulouse Olympique are probably freeking out.
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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 14:25

victorsra wrote:Are there any other sports concerned?

Obviously I can think about Uefa Champions League, that has the QFs from April 9th. I am not following soccer's discussions about this issue. What are they saying?
And of course French Rugby League sides Catalan Dragons and Toulouse Olympique are probably freeking out.


I came to the conclusion, after many good posts in this thread, that it won't affect Rugby Union a lot. Soccer has enough money to not really care this season no matter what happens. Long term that's a different beast.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby dropkick » Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 21:56

RugbyLiebe wrote:
NedRugby wrote:Is Britain your country then? I assumed you were Irish.


Nah, he is probably still angry at me, that I stated some months ago that Ireland until lots of EU-money poured in, was a poor house and didn't even have proper roads in the 90ies.
This combined with the lack of knowledge, that a "proper road" for a German can only be a motorway which basically connects you to every city over 100k in the whole country directly, lead to him writing this.

Happy enough for me. The world is full of all different colours.



:lol: Don't flatter yourself. Ireland received €41 billion from the EU over a 40 year period until 2013 when Ireland became net contributers. So in total less than €1 billion per year and going down.


The total expenditure of Ireland last year was over €70 billion so you're talking a very small percentage that comes from the EU. It generates a lot of propaganda though.


Indirectly Ireland handed over fishing waters worth over €200 billion. Plus the 2008 robbery where we are paying German bankers billions that they lost.


And as for roads, you'd swear the EU invented them. :lol:

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby dropkick » Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 21:59

amz wrote:
dropkick wrote:The whole Brexit thing is scare mongering anyway. There might be some short term pain but it's not like Britain wasn't an independent country before.


:lol: :lol:

I don't think Brexit will eventually happen. Being an intelligent and creative nation of global "navigators" and "explorers" who have led the world for a century (between the French and the American Century) with the perfect sense of direction and orientation in space and time and with great political spirits in their history, but with caution and skepticism about "revolutions" of any kind, I thin the British will realize sooner or later that this time they are headed in the wrong direction and that they have been tricked by clowns like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage . I have no doubt that at some point they will say Stop this poor, sub-mediocre game made by the United Kingdom in 2016, disappointing first of all for their own fellow citizens who have been deluded by the illusion that Britain could become the center of the world, after leaving the European Union, as it was in Queen Victoria's time. I just hope that moment of awakening might come too late to stop Brexit. At this moment there will be 1 year postponement after the vote 202-432 which was the most severe defeat of a British government throughout the modern history of the Kingdom. I remain optimistic that this can be undo.

As for rugby, there will be hardly an influence, UK has its own system and closed shop and for Ulster a way will be found. It's a pointless discussion.



Isn't it amazing that Britain was successful when it was independent.


It also puzzles me why people think Brussels would run the country better than London. The more local the better.


I want smaller governments telling people what to do and more freedom thanks.

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Re: Brexit and its effect on rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 22:02

I’m pretty sure this debate was exactly what was meant to be avoided in this thread.

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