Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Rugby World Cup 2019

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby antlat » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 12:43

WOOOHOOOO!!!!!!!!

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 12:45

That might be one of the best rugby matches I've ever seen. Full credit to Scotland, they came back in the second half.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Thomas » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 12:45

Oh my giddy Aunts! Wow what a match congratulations to @JRFURugby what an effort from Scotland.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby GeoRugby » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 12:49

Theee wins for Japan in 2015, followed by four ones and the playoff spot. That is what I call progression.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 12:51

Japan are the first T2 nation to win a World Cup group.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Natal » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 12:57

After Argentina in 2007?

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 12:59

I don't think that counts. Keeps this in mind, should Japan beat South Africa again, their path to the final is either France or Wales.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Natal » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:02

Argentina were excluded from the annual T1 comps in 2007 just as Japan and Fiji are now. T2, for all I can see, is just used to talk about teams who are forbidden from playing in TRC and 6N.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:04

I don't think Argentina have ever been T2, they'd consistently been beating other top ranked nations for decades. They were just a T1 nation without a competition to play in.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby rey200 » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:07

they played all the other big boys that year. It's really not the same.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby antlat » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:07

and the first Tier 2 nation to defeat two Tier 1 nations.

Japan, Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand, South Africa, Italy, England, France, Argentina, Wales, Australia and Fiji qualify for the 2023 World Cup.

Most likely scenario in qualifying,

Top 2 Nations in European Nations Cup will qualify as Europe 1 and Europe 2.
Third place nation in European Nations Cup progress to Repechage Tournament.

Top 2 Nations in Americas Rugby Championship will qualify as Americas 1 and Americas 2
Third place nation in Americas Rugby Championship progress to Repechage Tournament.

Winner of Rugby Africa Cup will qualify as Africa 1
Runner up of Rugby Africa Cup will progress to Repechage Tournament

For Oceania a group between Samoa, Tonga and winner of Oceania Cup.
Top 2 will qualify as Oceania 1 and Oceania 2.

Winner of Asia Rugby Championship will progress to Repechage Tournament.

Winner of Repechage Tournament will qualify.
Last edited by antlat on Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby iul » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:07

Great job from Japan.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby antlat » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:08

Apologies, completely forgot about Argentina

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Natal » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:09

You’re probably right stricto sensu. I think I’m just pedantically trying to highlight how arbitrary the term ‘tier’ is.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:13

Natal wrote:You’re probably right stricto sensu. I think I’m just pedantically trying to highlight how arbitrary the term ‘tier’ is.


Japan don't even really qualify anymore as T2 anyway. There's been a shift in the rugby landscape in this world cup. In 4 years time who knows where things will stand. Given the performances we've seen some of the lower ranked teams are on a similar path to where Japan are now.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:14

Well done Japan.

About the tiers: maybe we just stop to use this term in this forum.
Saying 6NLtd+RC teams would get the folklore out, that any of a tier1 status is earned instead of being a simple tradition.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby rey200 » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:15

I also wanted to congratulate all Uruguayans on their team's effort. It really has been a blast to watch those guys.

le: funny how everybode has forgot about Russia in their evaluation ^^
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:18

RugbyLiebe wrote:Well done Japan.

About the tiers: maybe we just stop to use this term in this forum.
Saying 6NLtd+RC teams would get the folklore out, that any of a tier1 status is earned instead of being a simple tradition.


Minnows is the only word I can think of. But yeah, there's going to be a point in the future where the name is going to have to be retired. The issue is as long as there's still an obvious gulf in class I'm not sure you can do it.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:21

Brilliant from Japan, O'Keefe tried his hardest to keep Scotland in it but they were too good.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby BigG » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 13:46

thatrugbyguy wrote:Japan are the first T2 nation to win a World Cup group.


It means, that they already turned to be t1. I wrote about that so many times.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Natal » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 15:25

So Japan can be subjectively 'considered' tier one now, if they weren't already. But it won't mean anything until the closed club of ten teams is opened up.

Edgar wrote a nice piece in The Roar with some ideas about creating a more inclusive competition:

Edgar wrote:Japan should join Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific Islands in an alliance
Now in article form: https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/10/11/j ... -alliance/


If I may, I'd like to politely respond to a few of the points. I think overall the idea of creating a Pacific Championship is commendable, and could/should be a concept to work towards in the future. But it might be a bit too much of a hard sell in the short term.

First, I don't see any of the current RC teams agreeing to a division. Regular tests between (e.g.) South Africa and New Zealand creates too much revenue to be split right now.

It’s a ludicrous amount of travel and would add to the already extensive distances the teams are required to cover. Have we learnt nothing from the Sunwolves’ involvement in Super Rugby?


I'm not fully on board with the geography argument being against Japan's claim to a place in TRC. International Rugby is not club rugby. The Sunwolves played sixteen games in this year's Super Rugby; TRC involves six games. I completely agree that any expansion of TRC poses large logistical challenges, but these are not as problematic as travel in Super Rugby.

Next is the culture and history. Japan has nothing in common with Argentina and South Africa beyond the fact none of them are in Europe. But is that really how the boundaries of international rugby competition are going to be drawn up in the twenty-first century?


I think that that is exactly where international rugby is heading. This is just an unfortunate consequence of having three continents dominated by just one team. I don't buy the cultural argument either. The southern hemisphere identity in rugby, for what it's worth, seems to be more a non-European identity anyway.

But simply adding them to a southern hemisphere championship already spanning three continents doesn’t seem like the most practical way of going about it.


Perhaps, which is why it's important to include teams that Japan can beat. Italy and Argentina currently face problems that they are unable to generate a winning culture, even if they are included in top-level competitions. The same could happen to Japan if they just became the fifth team in an expanded RC. I agree.

An alternative could be to create a RC Six Nations involving Fiji and Japan with promotion and relegation (thatrugbyguy has suggested this previously). This would be uncomplicated and attractive. A downside, as with the failed Nations' League proposal, is that it leaves several other teams out in the cold. Besides, the original Tri Nations may not be too happy about losing their home-and-away fixtures against each other.

Another alternative goes as follows (and I fully concede that there are some logistical challenges).

- Have a Five-Team Rugby Championship, played over five weeks: two home, two away, one bye each.
- Top three play each other in a finals series over three weeks (one home, one away, one bye each).
- Bottom two drop down into two pro/rel playoff groups, involving four teams from regional comps (which could be held at the same time as TRC proper), say the top two from PNC (e.g. Fija and Tonga) and from ARC (e.g. USA and Uruguay). After one home, one away, and one bye, the winner of each group qualifies for next year's RC.

Benefits:
- Everyone plays three home, three away, with two byes, over eight weeks (exactly the same as it is now).
- The big three get a degree of protection from relegation.
- Regional competitions stay in place during test windows, with the champions of each getting a shot at promotion; each gets a game against an RC team.

Disadvantages:
- Difficult to plan.
- A lot of travel.
- Regional champions get only one game against a RC team; still quite conservative.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby 4N » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 15:41

Japan deserves to be the fifth nation in the RC but it sounds like they are working on a second tier.

"The best answer currently being discussed is creating a second tier Rugby Championship - New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Argentina in the top tier and then Japan, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. There are also discussions on how to include the United States."

https://news.yahoo.com/rugby-pacific-pl ... 37692.html

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Edgar » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 16:08

Natal wrote:Edgar wrote a nice piece in The Roar with some ideas about creating a more inclusive competition:

Edgar wrote:Japan should join Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific Islands in an alliance
Now in article form: https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/10/11/j ... -alliance/




Cheers. Constructive comments always welcome :thumbup:

Japan have hauled this World Cup out of the flames of disaster. The typhoon-induced cancellations, controversy over cards and collective failure of the other second tier nations to seriously challenge the status quo had put this tournament on track to be a fiasco. But in topping their group with four straight wins, the hosts themselves have given us something to savor.

They are the first Asian team into the quarter-finals - meaning all continents have now been represented at that stage - just the 13th nation to do so (4th second tier team after Fiji, Samoa & Canada), and the first second tier nation to win its group. Incredibly they have now gone from one win in seven appearances at the World Cup to eight from nine (including 3 victories over 1st tier teams)! & the cherry on top is they get to face a team they have already beaten at the World Cup before.

Meanwhile, Scotland miss the final 8 for just the second time (following 2011), and Ireland face rugby's Everest in their quest to reach the semis for the first time ever. The other two quarters shape up as classic encounters as well.

But even all this isn't going to paper over the cracks of this installment's failings. Was Japan really the right choice when a proven host like South Africa has been rejected time and again? & was the World Cup itself the time to impose such strict interpretations of the tackle laws? & By far the biggest concern has to be the continuing hierarchy in the game, with only the host nation bucking the trend on this occasion.

Samoa and Canada simply shouldn't have been there. Both have been at low ebb for some years; the latter perhaps its lowest ever, and it's a real shame Namibia didn't get the chance to play them and perhaps end their unbeaten run at the tournament. Russia were only standing in, of course, but it's doubtful the Oaks would have made much impact either, had they not been disqualified. Fiji, the US and Georgia were also disappointing, failing to build on their achievements of recent years. This general lack of progress needs to be top of the international board's list of concerns.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 16:30

Edgar wrote:
Natal wrote:Edgar wrote a nice piece in The Roar with some ideas about creating a more inclusive competition:

Edgar wrote:Japan should join Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific Islands in an alliance
Now in article form: https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/10/11/j ... -alliance/




Cheers. Constructive comments always welcome :thumbup:

Japan have hauled this World Cup out of the flames of disaster. The typhoon-induced cancellations, controversy over cards and collective failure of the other second tier nations to seriously challenge the status quo had put this tournament on track to be a fiasco. But in topping their group with four straight wins, the hosts themselves have given us something to savor.

They are the first Asian team into the quarter-finals - meaning all continents have now been represented at that stage - just the 13th nation to do so (4th second tier team after Fiji, Samoa & Canada), and the first second tier nation to win its group. Incredibly they have now gone from one win in seven appearances at the World Cup to eight from nine (including 3 victories over 1st tier teams)! & the cherry on top is they get to face a team they have already beaten at the World Cup before.

Meanwhile, Scotland miss the final 8 for just the second time (following 2011), and Ireland face rugby's Everest in their quest to reach the semis for the first time ever. The other two semis shape up as classic encounters as well.

But even all this isn't going to paper over the cracks of this installment's failings. Was Japan really the right choice when a proven host like South Africa has been rejected time and again? & was the World Cup itself the time to impose such strict interpretations of the tackle laws? & By far the biggest concern has to be the continuing hierarchy in the game, with only the host nation bucking the trend on this occasion.

Samoa and Canada simply shouldn't have been there. Both have been at low ebb for some years; the latter perhaps its lowest ever, and it's a real shame Namibia didn't get the chance to play them and perhaps end their unbeaten run at the tournament. Russia were only standing in, of course, but it's doubtful the Oaks would have made much impact either, had they not been disqualified. Fiji, the US and Georgia were also disappointing, failing to build on their achievements of recent years. This general lack of progress needs to be top of the international board's list of concerns.


Good post Edgar.

I think the choice to host in Japan ia absolutely the right call, it's WR execution that's the problem. It's clear as day that WR had a contingency plan but it was foiled by a certain Union with an oversized voice flexing on everyone. The games all should have been moved either forward or backward by a day or two.

All of the problems that have arisen have to do with the scheduling of games which could be improved by going to a 24 team tournament with 6 groups of 4 with additional flexibility gained by not requiring a bye for a team in every group each week.

Russia and Canada were pretty weak and I have a hard time believing others wouldn't have given a better performance.

The Pacific Islands weren't terrible but can we really continue to justify all of them getting spots in this tournament? Samoa ans Tonga are basically suburbs of Auckland that get to play in the tournament.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Thomas » Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 16:40

Everyone in the social media universe here and elsewhere are talking did the World Cup had a contingency but my question here is did they know the difference between what is disaster recovery and contingency planning? I think so not.

that is the crux of the problem. they were caught like rabit in headlights

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