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Rugby World Cup 2019

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby jservuk » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 09:32

Are T2 nations closing the gap?

An analysis on the BBC's website:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50026631

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 10:24

Return_of_BG_97 wrote:Uruguay was more of a case of players needing to be accustomed to a real professional program rather than their players being lighter than average. (I think) 2015 was the beginning of Uruguay's project for their national team, and correct me if I am wrong but aren't they centrally professionalized? Regardless they play like a proper pro team (a lot of their players have pro contracts), possibly tied for 2nd with the USA in the Americas, and they have had great results (win vs Fiji, kept Australia in check and gave Wales a serious scare). I think their bigger moments aren't too far away, they just need more big tests and even solid tests like Japan, Samoa, Georgia etc.

You're right though, Japan have turned what seemed to be their achilles heel into a great strength. Seeing them speed all over the field against Ireland and Scotland was something to behold. Of course the foreign-born players help (who are either European or PI stock, and one Korean funny enough) but seeing smaller and lighter Japanese players just run over bigger competition (Ireland, Scotland, and Samoa) is just fun to watch rugby.


Most of Uruguay are with contracted centrally or apply their trade in Major League Rugby, with a couple playing in Europe too. I make the comparison to Japan because they are one of the smaller teams. The point I was making was that the old belief that the larger team would always beat the smaller team has been proven to be wrong. Smaller teams just need to prepare differently, which as I said, is good for the sport. It not only means any team can be competitive no matter what size they is, it means we get different styles of gameplay.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby nick511 » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 11:44

jservuk wrote:Are T2 nations closing the gap?

An analysis on the BBC's website:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50026631


Following on for that I saw a fairly good article summarising the Tier 2 effort at RWC on Rugbypass, as Usual though the writers knowledge of tier 2 rugby is questionable if he thinks Nigeria is one of the top rugby nations in Africa will be challenging Namibia for a qualifying spot at RWC 2023. They weren't even in the gold cup last year, and I haven't seen any sign of improvement in their 15s lately (or evidence of a dispora). For me the new format for Africa will certainly open up the chances of an upset, but I think Algeria will be the team to surprise from Africa in the future.

Also he thinks Portugal will be challenging for the European spot for 2023 which as we know is wishful thinking despite their promotion.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rugby-wo ... -two-rugby

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 11:48

I wouldn't underestimate Shaw's knowledge on Tier 2. He follows underage rugby and that's why he bets on Portugal (U20 Trophy performances) or mentions Nigeria (lots of eligible players in England).

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 13:06

Something else to bring up that I think is worth discussing too. Referee Wayne Barnes did something I've not seen done by a referee in the Scotland v Russia match and that was learn a couple of Russian phrases in communicating to the players. There's nothing that bugs me more in rugby than watching an English speaking referee shouting commands at players where English isn't their first language and in some cases clearly having no idea what the referee has said, so Barnes deserves some praise there for going the extra mile in an attempt to help with better communication. It should be something that all referees should try and do when they officiate a game with a non-English speaking team. Don't have to be fluent, just some basic rugby words.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Edgar » Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 17:12

jservuk wrote:Are T2 nations closing the gap?

An analysis on the BBC's website:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50026631


Thanks for sharing, Jservuk:

Well again we can take a look at the basic stats. The group stages ended with tier 1 teams defeating their tier 2 counterparts by an average of just over 26 points. This is down a little from the 29 or 30 it had been running at earlier, no doubt due to Japan's victory over the Scots and Tonga's close encounter with France. Still, it is six points more on average than the 2nd World Cup way back in 1991, and just a few points less than every other World Cup bar 2003, when it spiked at 41 on the sun-baked Aussie grounds.

I've not included results against Russia, Uruguay and Namibia, as to my knowledge they are not tier 2 teams. Otherwise, we would be looking at around 30 points - again. So no significant progress from that perspective. & only two wins by second tier teams vs first tier opponents (Japan claiming both), in line with the 3 tournaments of the nineties. The other tournaments all had one, except 2003, which had none.

As the article duly observes, the only real difference has been the reduction in blowouts, which I've gone over before and elsewhere, and which others seem to agree is due mostly to the big guns taking a more strategical approach to five-team pools, although it took some of them a couple of tournaments to figure this out.

Simply, we would have to say that Japan has continued its rapid rise over the past several years, no doubt due largely to the Sunwolves' involvement in Super Rugby. That's why World Rugby itself pushed for their inclusion (albeit to the detriment of the competition). Elsewhere there has been no sign of improvement, while a few of the teams look to have regressed. Overall the gap just isn't closing.

The Pacific Island teams need more time together, Georgia needs more game-breakers out wide and should perhaps focus on 7s a bit more to develop this facet of play (Italy too), & the North Americans will hopefully carry on with pro-rugby and raise MLR up to world class standards. But most of all international rugby needs restructuring.

We have at least seen a few tier 3 teams making genuine progress, including 3 at this World Cup. & the onus is on them to develop their own domestic scenes, naturally. But ultimately they are destined to max out at some point too, and never really challenge the elite teams until there are changes. Meanwhile rugby's World Cup will continue to be a repetitive charade of big fish in a small pond.


Figaro:

Possibly, and a lot of other factors might also be involved, like younger, sharper wingers coming through - & NZ has a production line churning them out. But I think it's mostly down to losing that edge in speed, plus the element of surprise as opponents study your technique and figure you out.

The first test I ever saw live featured a young Campo, and the All Blacks really were flummoxed by that goose-step and sudden acceleration. He'd used it to good effect at the Hong Kong 7s, but they were not a televised event back then and New Zealanders hadn't really got a good look at the Kid from Canberra before he took them apart in Wellington (82). But by the time he retired we'd all seen the replays of the 'Chimpese' gaffe against the Lions and Inga the Winga steamrolling him, and a younger generation than mine probably remembers him as a fairly average player who seldom crossed the try-line.

Nick511:

On the domestic front Nigeria has a long way to go. I watched their narrow loss to Ivory Coast earlier this year. They were banned for a while, apparently for not having a domestic league up and running, and there were rumours both they and Cameroon had switched en masse to league. But apparently they have both been re-admitted to Rugby Africa. Nigeria has tremendous potential, of course, both in terms of its huge diaspora in Britain, and its own population approaching 200 million (expected to double by 2050). Algeria, like Morocco and Tunisia, is reliant on its substantial French diaspora and doesn't have a major domestic scene.

Thatrugbyguy:

Agree entirely about English. International refs are pros as well today, aren't they? Make learning a 2nd language compulsory, if it's not already, and make it a factor in the selection criteria. Also, I've read that 50% the cards dished out in the group stages of this World Cup went to players of Pacific Island origin - who constitute around 20% of the tournament's players.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 07:51

Edgar wrote:I've not included results against Russia, Uruguay and Namibia, as to my knowledge they are not tier 2 teams.


A tier2 team is by World Rugby definition a team who qualified for the World Cup. Leaving them out, makes your statistic senseless.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby qwerty » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 09:54

We played in 4 World cups, we defeat traditional World Cup teams regularly. What else do we have to do to be T2?

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 10:22

It would be great if you were given the seat at World Council you deserve...

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 11:05

Uruguay will qualify for one vote at the next session. The criteria are: 2 RWCs in a row (so Romania lose theirs), funding & 6N or RC place. So Uruguay will get at least 1 vote if not 2 soon.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby iul » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 11:36

sk 88 wrote:Uruguay will qualify for one vote at the next session. The criteria are: 2 RWCs in a row (so Romania lose theirs), funding & 6N or RC place. So Uruguay will get at least 1 vote if not 2 soon.

Isn't it that once you got your spot you keep it even if you no longer meet the criteria?

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 12:12

sk 88 wrote:Uruguay will qualify for one vote at the next session. The criteria are: 2 RWCs in a row (so Romania lose theirs), funding & 6N or RC place. So Uruguay will get at least 1 vote if not 2 soon.


??

I dont believe this is the criterea. Tonga and Namíbia played much more than 2 RWC in a row and they don't have any vote. Tonga has one victory in all their last 4 RWC's, including 2011 over France... (2007 vs Samoa and USA, 2011 vs France and Japan, 2015 vs Namibia, 2019 vs USA).

BTW, for me tiers = power. That' s not the official definition but it is the tangible effect of tiers. Tier 1 = 3 council votes. Tier 2 = 1.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 12:32

iul wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Uruguay will qualify for one vote at the next session. The criteria are: 2 RWCs in a row (so Romania lose theirs), funding & 6N or RC place. So Uruguay will get at least 1 vote if not 2 soon.

Isn't it that once you got your spot you keep it even if you no longer meet the criteria?


9.3 Voting Rights on Council

The voting rights on Council are as follows:

(a) each Member Union which has qualified for the two most recent Rugby World Cup Finals prior to the date of the vote shall have one vote from the Annual Meeting following the most recent Rugby World Cup Finals;

https://www.world.rugby/handbook/bye-laws/bye-law-9?lang=en


9.2 Applying to join Council

(a) All Member Unions other than those set out in Bye-Law 9.1(a) wishing to appoint a representative to Council may apply to the Nominations Committee at any time.

(b) Such Member Unions will be subject to review and recommendation by the Nominations Committee and must comply with the criteria required for Eligibility for Consideration of Membership to Council (the “Criteria”).

(c) The Criteria may be reviewed from time to time but include the requirement for the relevant Member Union to demonstrate compliance with the provisions below:

(i) it has qualified for the two most recent Rugby World Cup Finals prior to the date of application to the Nominations Committee;

(ii) it fully complies with World Rugby Membership Criteria as applicable at the time of application;

(iii) it is in good standing with World Rugby (and in particular it has filed and continues to file all appropriate paperwork/reports required by World Rugby and has paid all fees which are due for its membership or the renewal thereof);

(iv) it is a member of a Member Association;

(v) it is in good standing with its National Olympic Committee and/or National Sports Ministry

(vi) it is able to demonstrate that good governance practice is in operation including but not limited to the following areas:

[*] Constitution, Bye-Laws and Regulations are fully applied;
[*] Three years of unqualified audited accounts or, where such accounts are qualified, such qualification(s) is not material to the Member Union’s compliance with the Criteria, as determined by the Nominations Committee;
[*] Three years of AGM Minutes provided;
[*] Transparent links with membership evident;
[*] Satisfactory confirmation that the Member Union has jurisdiction and control over players and the professional game in their Member Union territory; and
[*] Comply with any national or regional legislation, regulations or codes in the area of good governance for sporting bodies.

(d) Ordinarily by the end of January following each Rugby World Cup Finals Tournament, each Member Union in membership of Council shall be reviewed by a nominee of the Nominations Committee (which, for the avoidance of doubt, may be a World Rugby staff member) to confirm each Member Union’s continued compliance with the applicable Criteria. The Nominations Committee shall consider a compliance report with respect to each Member Union ordinarily at its meeting in or about March of the year following each Rugby World Cup Finals Tournament. Ordinarily at that meeting the Nominations Committee shall make recommendation(s) with respect to the membership and voting rights of Council in consideration of the criteria set out in Bye-Law 9.2(c) and 9.3 as applicable. In the event that a Member Union satisfies or ceases to satisfy the requirements in respect of qualification for the Rugby World Cup Finals, set out in Bye-Law 9.2(c)(i), the change in relation to the ability to appoint a representative to Council shall take effect from the January following the relevant Rugby World Cup Finals.


So Namibia and Tonga qualify for the RWC but either haven't applied for membership of the council or fail a different criteria for joining it.

Romania will lose it's council vote in January too.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 13:36

Interesting, thanks!

(v) it is in good standing with its National Olympic Committee and/or National Sports Ministry

What does it mean? Just being recognized? Isn't it basic criterea for membership? Too vague.

(vi) it is able to demonstrate that good governance practice is in operation including but not limited to the following areas:

I guess they fail here.


They should involved WRWC and RWC7s or Olympics in the Council criterea. Spain and Kenya, for exemple, could have the seats, as they play an important role in two other rugby categories, women's and sevens. Why only men's 15s count? It is contradictory to other WR policies. It should be 2 RWC or 2 WRWC or 2 Olympics (as flagship events).

And yes, a country shoudn't lose status after gaining it. Well, it should lose status after 2 events missed maybe, definitly not 1. It is too harsh to be 1. Should be like 2 out of 3, 3 out of 4, 4 out of 5, something like this.

I am saying this things because it is possible to change the council without changing it. It should change completely? Maybe yes, but won't happen. So it is possible to make it more open within current concepts.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 14:00

Totally, inching the council towards progress is a long time goal and any and all proposals that equalise votes between member states should be supported fully.

Slow and steady salami tactics.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 14:50

sk 88 wrote: In the event that a Member Union satisfies or ceases to satisfy the requirements in respect of qualification for the Rugby World Cup Finals, set out in Bye-Law 9.2(c)(i), the change in relation to the ability to appoint a representative to Council shall take effect from the January following the relevant Rugby World Cup Finals.


So Namibia and Tonga qualify for the RWC but either haven't applied for membership of the council or fail a different criteria for joining it.

Romania will lose it's council vote in January too.


Who seriously comes up with these clauses? Why the hell is rugby administration like that?
So basically we are now at the possible maximum of non-cartel-nation-representation and it can only get less, as Romania would need 8 years to re-entry and Canada will be excluded if their form doesn't go up again in four years.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby 4N » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 15:42

qwerty wrote:We played in 4 World cups, we defeat traditional World Cup teams regularly. What else do we have to do to be T2?


You are definitely Tier 2. World Rugby says it regularly on their website.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 15:46

4N wrote:
qwerty wrote:We played in 4 World cups, we defeat traditional World Cup teams regularly. What else do we have to do to be T2?


You are definitely Tier 2. World Rugby says it regularly on their website.



To me top 10 is tier 1, 10-20 is tier 2 , 20-30 tier 3. simple

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 15:55

We should replace T1- T2 by Cartel and ... Come on guys, suggest a fancy name for Non-Cartel

T1 rugby we could call Cartel Rugby. Cartel Rugby is a nice concept.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 15:59

What about:

Cartel Rugby (T1)

Outsider Rugby (the rest)
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 16:15

snapper37 wrote:
4N wrote:
qwerty wrote:We played in 4 World cups, we defeat traditional World Cup teams regularly. What else do we have to do to be T2?


You are definitely Tier 2. World Rugby says it regularly on their website.



To me top 10 is tier 1, 10-20 is tier 2 , 20-30 tier 3. simple

The degree of permeability between 16th and 22nd is too great to establish such a frontier. There isn't a tier between Spain and Canada just because the ranking temporarily says so.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 16:16

victorsra wrote:What about:

Cartel Rugby (T1)

Outsider Rugby (the rest)

Unwanted Rugby

The clowns who entertain people once every four years.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 16:18

Clown Rugby
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby victorsra » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 16:19

victorsra wrote:Clown Rugby


Wow this name makes the Asian Republic of Upper Vova kings of the world :lol:
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2019

Postby Thomas » Thu, 17 Oct 2019, 16:58

I would go as far as to call the T1 Nations the commission and the WR Council their monthly meeting of how to run their business

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