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Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 12:49

thatrugbyguy wrote:For those of us uncultured folk who lack any knowledge of the Spanish tongue outside of buenos dias and guacamole, can someone post roughly what was said in the press conference?


http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2019/1 ... ontevideo/

ARN is your best source. Otherwise, Chans’ articles are pretty good and if you have Chrome there is a google translate built in.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 12:54

Thomas wrote:I admit the name Lions is an Odd choice, Had it been Jaguares or one of the other felines that reside in the South it would have been more relevant.


I find it odd that they went with the English spelling of the word rather than Leones.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby ficcp » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 13:40

Thomas wrote:Didn't the Mapuche defeated the Spanish? The fierce independent spirit would have been an incentive to call a team after them. I am sure some compromise could have been arranged with the current Mapuche groups.


Thomas : the Mapuche defeated the spaniards in several battles but the war (Guerra de Arauco) lasted for 236 years. The Traty signed by the spanish Crown at the end of the 18th century was not fully respected by the republic of Chile (after the Independence) which created the basis for this ethnic legal claims and the consequent conflict still unsolved.

Spaniards conquerors learnt that it was possible to progress in Chile but at a much higher cost than in Peru. Pedro de Valdivia, the conqueror and founder of Chile had already earned its share in Cuzco, but he wanted to explore and discover new lands for Spain. He could not reach his target (Strait of Magellan and Isle of Fire) , he died in battle against the master mapuche tactician-Lautaro- but he created a new country completely different of the vicekingdoms of Peru and La Plata.

I see not any possibility to call "Mapuches" a sport team not at all related with the ethnic. Although there is a Rugby club called "Lautaro" it is not a cultural appropriation because is a name commonly used in Chile.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby ficcp » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 15:52

What a poor Launching of something which should be the most important event for Rugby in the region ¡¡¡¡
I missed the participation of a good comediant and also the presence of Luis Fonsi singing "Despacito" (which seems to be the rhytm of the League).

¿Which was the contribution of a former FIFA , Coca-Cola, Colo-colo and Santa Mónica executive? Was he looking for a job? or is he in the industry of "smoke selling"?

No fixture, no stadiums, no sponsors, no squads , only starting and finishing dates.
I hope the League will move on in a more precise and effective way, regional Rugby needs positive actions to improve but not events without content.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 18:38

Thomas wrote:I admit the name Lions is an Odd choice, Had it been Jaguares or one of the other felines that reside in the South it would have been more relevant.

4N wrote:Schools in Latin America (at least the Spanish-speaking part) do teach that North and South America are one continent. You can see the Club America soccer logo for example shows both. In the US it is taught that they are separate.


Similarly to Mexico Education system, until several years ago it was described as one Continent with 2 land masses linked by Central America. I know is now taught as a separate continent but up until recently it was a subcontinent same as North America. it all depends which generation you come from.

There is no right or wrong answer. I have seen in some scientific reports as the Americas to described it as one continent depending on the reports otherwise is separate names.


Random rabbit hole to go into...but are Europe/Africa/Asia all considered one continent in the South American education system? Because that would be the same logic.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby rey200 » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 21:59

What? There is no right or wrong, although I'm a strong supporter of 5 continents.
Ceterum censeo Sex Nationes esse augendas.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Thomas » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 22:06

TheStroBro wrote:
Random rabbit hole to go into...but are Europe/Africa/Asia all considered one continent in the South American education system? Because that would be the same logic.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Got a good laugh out of that one.

Anyone who has studied science will tell you there are several models and I remember The 7-continent model is usually taught in Western Europe, China, and most native English-speaking countries. The 6-continent combined-Eurasia model is preferred by the geographic community, Russia, Eastern Europe, and Japan. The 6-continent combined-America model is taught in Latin America, Iberia, Italy and some other parts of Europe.

The 5-continent model which ignores Antarctica is the basis for the five rings of the Olympic symbol.

The 16th century definition is "continent" comes from the term "continent land", translated from the Latin terra continens and meaning "continuous land" and defines one of several landmasses on Earth.

I know is totally from the topic but it gives you an idea of why people define it differently

Models:
7 continents Antarctica South America North America Europe Asia Africa Australia
6 continents Antarctica South America North America Eurasia Africa Australia
6 continents Antarctica America Europe Asia Africa Australia
5 continents America Europe Asia Africa Australia
4 continents Antarctica America Africa-Eurasia Australia

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 04:32

Thomas wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Random rabbit hole to go into...but are Europe/Africa/Asia all considered one continent in the South American education system? Because that would be the same logic.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Got a good laugh out of that one.

Anyone who has studied science will tell you there are several models and I remember The 7-continent model is usually taught in Western Europe, China, and most native English-speaking countries. The 6-continent combined-Eurasia model is preferred by the geographic community, Russia, Eastern Europe, and Japan. The 6-continent combined-America model is taught in Latin America, Iberia, Italy and some other parts of Europe.

The 5-continent model which ignores Antarctica is the basis for the five rings of the Olympic symbol.

The 16th century definition is "continent" comes from the term "continent land", translated from the Latin terra continens and meaning "continuous land" and defines one of several landmasses on Earth.

I know is totally from the topic but it gives you an idea of why people define it differently

Models:
7 continents Antarctica South America North America Europe Asia Africa Australia
6 continents Antarctica South America North America Eurasia Africa Australia
6 continents Antarctica America Europe Asia Africa Australia
5 continents America Europe Asia Africa Australia
4 continents Antarctica America Africa-Eurasia Australia


This is good, because I was confused as shit when he was saying Americas refers to the continent. When I'd never heard anyone refer to the western hemisphere as one continent. Learn something new every day.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 13:14

Thomas wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Random rabbit hole to go into...but are Europe/Africa/Asia all considered one continent in the South American education system? Because that would be the same logic.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Got a good laugh out of that one.

Anyone who has studied science will tell you there are several models and I remember The 7-continent model is usually taught in Western Europe, China, and most native English-speaking countries. The 6-continent combined-Eurasia model is preferred by the geographic community, Russia, Eastern Europe, and Japan. The 6-continent combined-America model is taught in Latin America, Iberia, Italy and some other parts of Europe.

The 5-continent model which ignores Antarctica is the basis for the five rings of the Olympic symbol.

The 16th century definition is "continent" comes from the term "continent land", translated from the Latin terra continens and meaning "continuous land" and defines one of several landmasses on Earth.

I know is totally from the topic but it gives you an idea of why people define it differently

Models:
7 continents Antarctica South America North America Europe Asia Africa Australia
6 continents Antarctica South America North America Eurasia Africa Australia
6 continents Antarctica America Europe Asia Africa Australia
5 continents America Europe Asia Africa Australia
4 continents Antarctica America Africa-Eurasia Australia

Thank you.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Edgar » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 17:03

victorsra wrote:Which club from Porto Alegre you mean? There are two big clubs: Grêmio and Internacional.

It would be exactly like in Uruguay. They have maybe the hottest rivalry in Brazilian football. If you choose one, be sure the other fans won't appear. Inter is red, Grêmio is blue. Coca-Cola changed their colours inside Grêmio's stadium... this is how their rivalry is.

Porto Alegre is Rio Grande do Sul's capital and indeed this is the second state with more rugby in Brazil.


I don't remember, sorry. More than 6 years ago now and I wouldn't have known the difference. But the city appeared to have all the right credentials to host a second SLAR franchise, being among the nation's most populous and easily the closest major urban center to Uruguay. It also has a relatively mild climate, sub-tropical rather than tropical (comparable to Brisbane or Durban). In fact, there is a large German community there, dating back to the early 19th century. & most importantly there is a thriving local rugby scene. :thumbup: 8-)

Thatrugbyguy wrote: For those of us uncultured folk who lack any knowledge of the Spanish tongue outside of buenos dias and guacamole, can someone post roughly what was said in the press conference?


I don't think guacamole is Spanish :roll: Probably of Native American origin. Anyway, the press conference was just a presentation of the team names, logos, jerseys and dates. Nothing too spectacular, but I guess it's a start.

Thomas wrote: Anyone who has studied science will tell you there are several models and I remember The 7-continent model is usually taught in Western Europe, China, and most native English-speaking countries. The 6-continent combined-Eurasia model is preferred by the geographic community, Russia, Eastern Europe, and Japan. The 6-continent combined-America model is taught in Latin America, Iberia, Italy and some other parts of Europe.


Indeed, the scientific view is that continents are landmasses covering major tectonic plates, of which there are seven: the African plate, Antarctic plate, Eurasian plate, Australian plate, North American plate, South American plate and Pacific plate. The latter is not covered by a major landmass, however. So there are only six continents - Africa, Antarctica, Eurasia, Australia, North America and South America. The Americas were once separated by an ocean and only came together 3 million years ago.

At school we were taught there are seven continents, including Europe, but this is based on a Eurocentric perception of ethnicity and culture, lumping the widely diverse peoples of other continents together. Europe is basically a peninsula of Asia, whereas India and the Philippines are situated on their own minor tectonic plates. I was educated in NZ, Australia & the US, btw. I know they see things differently in Spain because I once taught this subject in the Basque Country and almost had a riot on my hands :shock:

For me Americana conjures up images of Coca Cola, Marlboro, Macdonald's and other icons of popular US culture. I think it's also a style of music (mixed blues & jazz).

Incidentally, marsupials originated in South America and there remain 13 species on that continent. :geek: The Americas were named after Amerigo Vespucci, an Italian navigator whose main claim to fame was "discovering" a portion of Brazil which included Rio and the Amazon. Doubtless our Americas friends (North & South) already know this ;)
Last edited by Edgar on Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 17:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 17:17

Okay, so now can we end the discussion around continents and whether or not Americana may confuse some people?

Back to the actual league!

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 17:45

Brazil officialy celebrates Pedro Álvares Cabral (Portuguese) the first European to have arrived in Brazil, in exactly 1500, in Bahia. However, it is possible between 1498 and 1499 other Spanish and Portuguese arrived in the Northern coast (around Amazon coast and maybe even Northeast). Vespucci travel was in 1501 I believe. So, not the first. But yeah, he's been here too.

About the league, it is very likely that the league turns a bad deal for Brazil and a good deal for Chile and Paraguay. The only advantage we had in recent years was our high performance program (and professional squad). Now both Chile and Paraguay will have it too. And our club and specially junior rugby really suck.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby ficcp » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 22:43

Victor : I do not get your point. The professional squad (Tupis) will have 8 more matches against competitive outfits(I asume that the chilean and paraguayan franchises will be better teams than the respective national selections), the matches corresponding to ARC and WR window of June will remain so they will keep growing as a team. Are you worried about the financial issue?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 22:59

He’s saying that it will benefit you guys much more because they already had their players in a full time environment and they lead to their success. Now that everyone is in a full time environment with SLAR, the gap will close quicker.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 02:10

Tobar wrote:He’s saying that it will benefit you guys much more because they already had their players in a full time environment and they lead to their success. Now that everyone is in a full time environment with SLAR, the gap will close quicker.

Exactly
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby carbonero » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 04:04

I wouldn’t be surprised if Chile surpasses Brazil as soon as next year. The last three tests against Romania, Spain and Portugal were encouraging. And they are one of the youngest sides in Tier 2/3.

Chile is essentially copying ideas that worked for their neighbors. This first year of high performance is almost identical to Uruguay. They established their talent pipeline in the capital from U16 onwards. They also increased competition with games against Argentine provinces. Now in year two they are looking to emulate the UAR, creating HP structures in Viña, Antofagasta and Concepción. I don’t know if they have the funds to make it happen but the presence of the regions in the board should assure more federalism. The venues of the June tests were a step in the right direction.

You could even see some inspiration from Brazil. This weekend the Chilean locks were gripping from the side of the scrum. That is the same technique that took the Brazilian scrum to the next level. Let’s see if they can make it work.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 13:30

Chile is only a matter of time...
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby ficcp » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 15:41

carbonero wrote:I wouldn’t be surprised if Chile surpasses Brazil as soon as next year. The last three tests against Romania, Spain and Portugal were encouraging. And they are one of the youngest sides in Tier 2/3.

Chile is essentially copying ideas that worked for their neighbors. This first year of high performance is almost identical to Uruguay. They established their talent pipeline in the capital from U16 onwards. They also increased competition with games against Argentine provinces. Now in year two they are looking to emulate the UAR, creating HP structures in Viña, Antofagasta and Concepción. I don’t know if they have the funds to make it happen but the presence of the regions in the board should assure more federalism. The venues of the June tests were a step in the right direction.

You could even see some inspiration from Brazil. This weekend the Chilean locks were gripping from the side of the scrum. That is the same technique that took the Brazilian scrum to the next level. Let’s see if they can make it work.


It is clear that Lemoine has offered a stability which was not present before his arrival, as I posted one year ago. He received the power required by a HC to make the whole structure move quicker, with a well defined target. He has tried more than 60 players during 2019, which is a record. 90 % of the selected players came from "Non Inclusive Clubs" because the better players are there.

IMHO what is missing in the central strategy of the chilean Union is to promote and develop the sport more intensively in social groups where is barely known or has a very low penetration. They are working from the elite downwards , I would have increased the base first and then invest more resources on the elite.

Hourcade said "Rugby in Chile is recreative, not a professional activity" and he was right. The most gifted chilean players belong to clubs (and schools) placed at a high socio-economic level(Non inclusive). Hence, they have many possibilities in their working life better than playing Rugby for Money. You can not blame good players for not going professional (or do it for a couple of years only) because they prefer to play for fun and make their lives as doctors, engineers, executives or entrepreneurs.
Chile should increase the base of players organising special academies and clubs (with inclusion to everybody who wants to play) in those areas where Rugby Union is barely known (of a lower socio-economic level). Inequality in Rugby is determined by the place where the child or younsgter learn the game and by the place where he practices when adult.
If Rugby keeps concentrated mainly in one region and in only the higher social level, it will not go to the next stage. To be a professional player will be a more interesting alternative for a player from a lower economic group than the one from a richer group; the same applies for players from the regions where there are less working opportunities than in the capital.

American football is working much better than Rugby Union bringing large groups of youngsters to play a sport with no tradition and few years of history in the country.They are tackling well the lower socio-economic level where Rugby is weak or nonexistent.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby ficcp » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 16:03

victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:He’s saying that it will benefit you guys much more because they already had their players in a full time environment and they lead to their success. Now that everyone is in a full time environment with SLAR, the gap will close quicker.

Exactly


This is not a Zero Sum game. The fact that Chile and Paraguay improve the level of their national teams thanks to SLAR does not mean that Brazil go backwards... What is relevant is the absolute improvement , not the relative improvement to other teams.

Brazil overcame Chile because it developed a good work with the elite players (The squad of Tupis) although its base was smaller than the chilean one. It grew in absolute terms but especially in relative terms respect to Chile and Paraguay. With more competitive rivals, caeteris paribus, Brazil should progress further.

If Chile or Paraguay can Overcome Brazil means that they are doing a better work and fully using their resources, which Brazil has being doing very well for 5 years.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 16:43

But Brazil is on the verge of going backwards. The money will be shorter for high performance and club rugby (and junior club rugby) are regressing - and it wasn't good in the (pseudo)apex. The situation is much worse than people abroad believe. The resources were defintly not well used in the past 10 years. The only thing that might keep the Tupis improving will be the pure merit of the squad and coaching staff.

BTW, I was told Corinthins hasn't signed yet. They anounced in a hurry just because Piñeyrua scheduled that launch. Looks like they have nothing agreed about anything ($, marketing, home field...)
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 20:02

"Although at first the term America was applied only to the southern half of the continent, the designation soon was applied to the ENTIRE landmass" ...Encyclopædia Britannica

And about the name Lions, the flag of Paraguay have a Lion :thumbup:

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 20:52

I get the mascot but find it funny that they are the Lions, not Leones.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Thomas » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 20:54

One thing is not clear for me, are the new franchises owned by

Sudamerica Rugby? The Unions? or will they eventually be privately owned?

What is the business model? Make a loss and eventually make profit? Has anything been released on how this franchises will be managed?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 21:03

Hernan14 wrote:"Although at first the term America was applied only to the southern half of the continent, the designation soon was applied to the ENTIRE landmass" ...Encyclopædia Britannica

And about the name Lions, the flag of Paraguay have a Lion :thumbup:



The same Britannica: "Continent, one of the larger continuous masses of land, namely, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia, listed in order of size. (Europe and Asia are sometimes considered a single continent, Eurasia" :lol: https://www.britannica.com/science/continent

One thing is not clear for me, are the new franchises owned by

Sudamerica Rugby? The Unions? or will they eventually be privately owned?

What is the business model? Make a loss and eventually make profit? Has anything been released on how this franchises will be managed?


What I understood they are owned by each Union , that can sell it to private owners.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 22:09

Uruguay is 50% owned by URU and 50% owned by private investors. Ceibos are 100% owned by private investors. But it’s unclear whether or not the unions originally owned 100% and sold their shares.

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