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Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby The Do » Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 21:45

Could you look at a semi closed 8 nations with pro/rel - the 6 Nations plus two others. The 6 Nations are protected by agreements that they cannot be relegated even if they finished last. The two other ‘guest’ teams eg Georgia, Romania, Spain etc will fight out relegation by their position on the overall table
For Example ( this is just a random table)
Ireland 30pt
England 27pts
France 22pts
Georgia 15pts
Wales 12 pts
Romania 8 pts
Scotland 6 pts
Italy 2pts

In this scenario despite coming last, Italy is protected from relegation as being part of the 6 Nations group, but Romania is relegated or face a playoff due to finishing below Georgia in the ‘guest’ section

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby welshdragon2000 » Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 22:10

The Do wrote:Could you look at a semi closed 8 nations with pro/rel - the 6 Nations plus two others. The 6 Nations are protected by agreements that they cannot be relegated even if they finished last. The two other ‘guest’ teams eg Georgia, Romania, Spain etc will fight out relegation by their position on the overall table
For Example ( this is just a random table)
Ireland 30pt
England 27pts
France 22pts
Georgia 15pts
Wales 12 pts
Romania 8 pts
Scotland 6 pts
Italy 2pts

In this scenario despite coming last, Italy is protected from relegation as being part of the 6 Nations group, but Romania is relegated or face a playoff due to finishing below Georgia in the ‘guest’ section


The problem with this is player welfare. The 2 rest weekend in the Six Nations are highlighted by all the teams are vitally important so I can’t see them giving it up. And also with additional teams this means that the share of the money is split to another team so everyone else is getting less than before.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby carbonero » Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 22:31

Armchair Fan wrote:
carbonero wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Sure, let's act as if Spain didn't know well how the cartel works...

Apples and oranges. The decision to boot Spain off the W6N was inconsequential to their finances. The decision to eventually add Spain/Germany to the 6N would have massive revenue opportunities for the tournament.

Hypothesis and facts. That's why I stand by what I said previously, it's about privilege, not (only) money.

One fact that pertains to another tournament 15 years ago.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 22:44

The refusal to backtrack or to implement promotion and relegation is not from 15 years ago and we are talking about the very same actors.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby carbonero » Fri, 01 Feb 2019, 23:39

Different tournament. Different upside.

Maybe Spain never gets in because the 6N want to defend their privileges. It is clearly not a slam dunk. However, you have a far better chance than Georgia. And what happened with your women’s team is irrelevant to that decision.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Ainsthrilln » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 00:08

Canalina wrote:U20: Scotland v Italy 22-32

Women: Scotland v Italy 7-28

We are not too bad :)


I think this is the third consecutive vitctory that Italy U20 get against Scotland U20, after 2018 6N and 2018 JWRC.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 03:58

Canadaman wrote:If Italy has a bad WC, unlikely but could happen, that is what will really 'raise the Georgia' question again. They actually have a bad schedule in their pool and an upset, most likely to Canada, could happen.


What will raise the question more is if Georgia genuinely fight for a quarter finals birth. The odds aren't going to be any better for Georgia to actually make a play at reaching the second round than they are in September, because the pool they are in is pretty wide open right now. All it would take is to secure two wins, a couple of losing bonus points, and then hope Wales, Fiji and Australia all beat each other. A little luck can go a long way.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Scoob » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 04:56

There is no morals in this world.Everyones out for themselves and to hell for everyone else. Hell its 38 years today since the underarm cricket fiasco :roll: .

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Ainsthrilln » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 09:17

thatrugbyguy wrote:
Canadaman wrote:If Italy has a bad WC, unlikely but could happen, that is what will really 'raise the Georgia' question again. They actually have a bad schedule in their pool and an upset, most likely to Canada, could happen.


What will raise the question more is if Georgia genuinely fight for a quarter finals birth. The odds aren't going to be any better for Georgia to actually make a play at reaching the second round than they are in September, because the pool they are in is pretty wide open right now. All it would take is to secure two wins, a couple of losing bonus points, and then hope Wales, Fiji and Australia all beat each other. A little luck can go a long way.


Problem is Georgia could end fourth as well, if they loose against Fiji.

Georgia has the right to demand at least one T1 match per year, but without actual victories against them there is no ground for its inclusion in the 6N.

If 6N were to be changed, I see more probable the exclusion of Italy than the incorporation of Georgia or a replacememt.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Natal » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 10:10

Silver Fox wrote:Not the only idea.
In one of the other topics it is mentioned that the TRC might be restructured to expand to 6 and to introduce promotion-relegation with the Americas RC and the Pacific NC as feeders. Rugby Europe should aim for inclusion in that structure.
Introduce a second tier (TRC 2) and feed into that from the regional tournaments.
- it would add commercial value to the TRC
- it would offer a path to the highest level
- for European teams, shifting focus would mean they didn't have to play their internationals mid-winter anymore
- with that setup the Nations Championship shouldn't have to be more than 3-4 matches in November.

At least it would offer a way out off the stranglehold the 6N have on European test rugby atm.
Just a thought.


:thumbup:

I think yours is the most sensible compromise, Silver Fox. The Six Nations have repeatedly made it clear that they care about money, not about results on the field. I suspect that, had Georgia beaten Italy last year, we would still be in the same position.

TRC under this model would just be a 'rest of the world' competition.

There could be an annual four-team tournament in Europe every year with the winners of Africa, Americas Six Nations, Asia-Pacific (PNC), and REC to decide who replaces the bottom team in TRC. That way, everyone would have an avenue to the top tier.

It sucks that the 6N would get special status, but that's the reality at the moment.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 11:56

welshdragon2000 wrote:The problem with this is player welfare. The 2 rest weekend in the Six Nations are highlighted by all the teams are vitally important so I can’t see them giving it up. And also with additional teams this means that the share of the money is split to another team so everyone else is getting less than before.



More like they cynically use them as bargaining chips, dressed up as player welfare. The English want it to go to 6 weeks, but the others won't give them that without getting something in return. So far they've not offered anything they want enough. Eventually I reckon they will and it will lose one then the other rest week.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby dans » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 13:42

Could there ever be a scenario where 6N open for an invitational 7th place every 2 years? ... where the last placed team over 2 seasons would play a double header against the REC top placed over same period. I think there will be money to be made in that game if marketed properly by 6N Ltd...Thy could even play it in Paris or Cardiff and it will be a decent crowd.

It could increase the REC meaningfulness in between World Cup years, show some goodwill from 6N...and the core 6N countries will not feel threatened over 1 bad season...

It would give the chance for teams like Spain, Romania, Germany, Russia - if are consistent enough, to play a double header against probably Georgia for a 6N place ...Such a game will have a very different meaning.... I can see teams putting a lot more effort in the seasons leading to RWC, when the prize is so rich...
But that is wishful thinking!..;)

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 18:29

I don't think anyone in the T1s believes a 7N is good. You'll only ad a small market, Georgia, and that's it. It doesn't attract new sponsors or bigger broadcast contracts. If there is a chance of an expansion it will be to 8N, because at least there is probably an extra bigger market involved.

Once more, you don't need to change the calendar with 8N, because the 6N is already played within 7 weekends. What will be needed is a minutes-played-cap for players to avoid dangers to player welfare.
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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby iul » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 18:56

victorsra wrote:I don't think anyone in the T1s believes a 7N is good. You'll only ad a small market, Georgia, and that's it. It doesn't attract new sponsors or bigger broadcast contracts. If there is a chance of an expansion it will be to 8N, because at least there is probably an extra bigger market involved.

Once more, you don't need to change the calendar with 8N, because the 6N is already played within 7 weekends. What will be needed is a minutes-played-cap for players to avoid dangers to player welfare.

If the 7N is open, at least that 7th spot is open, then there's no reason why strong economies couldn't get to the top. Spain and Germany are better than Romania and Georgia at every team sport apart from rugby. There's no reason why that wouldn't change. They're not that far behind anyway.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 19:43

I'm just saying I do believe if by a miracle they expand it, it will be to 8N, not 7N, to have a real shot to have Russia/Spain/Germany....
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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby dans » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 22:25

I also don't think it would be availability in the calendar for a 8N tournament...for 7 they may accommodate it by having a free week within the schedule and maybe add special rules to start with (like the previous year champions not having to play the new 7-th nation while all the others would play the champions only after their free week).
Imagine what would happen if Spain would win the REC after 2 combined seasons and have to play Georgia (most likely candidate for the qualification)...No way they will play that game with their weak side when a place in 7N is for grabs. Both value of the REC and the sport in countries like Germany and Spain will grow... It would be an important change in the development dynamic of REC countries...in 5-6 years countries like Spain, Germany and Russia have a big chance to make it on the main stage, even if for start Georgia is the prime candidate.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby qwerty » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 22:35

Maybe split the teams into two groups of 4, then play semifinals and finals for all teams (A1-B2, B1-A2, A3-B4, B3-A4), therefore all teams play 5 games.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby dans » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 22:47

qwerty wrote:Maybe split the teams into two groups of 4, then play semifinals and finals for all teams (A1-B2, B1-A2, A3-B4, B3-A4), therefore all teams play 5 games.


Possible...but there 2 reason that I can see against it...1) it will weaken the tournament and 2) cultural tournament heritage..

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 23:17

dans wrote:I also don't think it would be availability in the calendar for a 8N tournament...for 7 they may accommodate it by having a free week within the schedule and maybe add special rules to start with (like the previous year champions not having to play the new 7-th nation while all the others would play the champions only after their free week).
Imagine what would happen if Spain would win the REC after 2 combined seasons and have to play Georgia (most likely candidate for the qualification)...No way they will play that game with their weak side when a place in 7N is for grabs. Both value of the REC and the sport in countries like Germany and Spain will grow... It would be an important change in the development dynamic of REC countries...in 5-6 years countries like Spain, Germany and Russia have a big chance to make it on the main stage, even if for start Georgia is the prime candidate.


As I said, there is no difference in the calendar between 7 and 8. The current number of 7 weekends wont be expanded due to club pression. Now there are 2 byes. 7 teams mean 1 bye and 8 zero. But you dont actually need byes. You only need to protect player welfare. You can do with playing time limits to players. You dont need to stop the national team from playing. Probably the Home Nations and France would use matches against Italy, Georgia and whoever to rest players, avoiding bad differences.
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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Ainsthrilln » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 07:58

victorsra wrote:
dans wrote:I also don't think it would be availability in the calendar for a 8N tournament...for 7 they may accommodate it by having a free week within the schedule and maybe add special rules to start with (like the previous year champions not having to play the new 7-th nation while all the others would play the champions only after their free week).
Imagine what would happen if Spain would win the REC after 2 combined seasons and have to play Georgia (most likely candidate for the qualification)...No way they will play that game with their weak side when a place in 7N is for grabs. Both value of the REC and the sport in countries like Germany and Spain will grow... It would be an important change in the development dynamic of REC countries...in 5-6 years countries like Spain, Germany and Russia have a big chance to make it on the main stage, even if for start Georgia is the prime candidate.


As I said, there is no difference in the calendar between 7 and 8. The current number of 7 weekends wont be expanded due to club pression. Now there are 2 byes. 7 teams mean 1 bye and 8 zero. But you dont actually need byes. You only need to protect player welfare. You can do with playing time limits to players. You dont need to stop the national team from playing. Probably the Home Nations and France would use matches against Italy, Georgia and whoever to rest players, avoiding bad differences.


But Italy and Georgia would.also need to rest players, and they don't have so much depth.

Think in the Ireland-Italy played in USA in the fall. Both teams played with B/C teams and Ireland trashed Italy hard.

Moreover, weak teams would have incentives to rest players against Ireland and England, so weak teams would probably have bigger defeats against them than Italy at the moment.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 14:40

They'd have to pick their battles... Italy can rest players against Spain or Russia or Romania anyway. Coaches will need to work with their squads, just like clubs do. Only possible to prepare the depth of the squads with more money involved in the preparation and U20s to produce the depth. That's why it will only happen if meaning better sponsors and TV/internet contracts. That's why they'll need an 8th spot, to make possible to sell that the tournament have the potential to reach Russian or Spanish or German markets... things are connected.
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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Ainsthrilln » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 00:41

victorsra wrote:They'd have to pick their battles... Italy can rest players against Spain or Russia or Romania anyway. Coaches will need to work with their squads, just like clubs do. Only possible to prepare the depth of the squads with more money involved in the preparation and U20s to produce the depth. That's why it will only happen if meaning better sponsors and TV/internet contracts. That's why they'll need an 8th spot, to make possible to sell that the tournament have the potential to reach Russian or Spanish or German markets... things are connected.


I don't think so. The games against Georgia amd the other T2'would be the most important for Italy, in order to ensure it is not relegated (or humilliated).

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 01:04

Yes, I know. Against Georgia definitly. The other team not completely.
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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Tobar » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 03:14

I don't see any way that Georgia or any of the other REC countries enter the 6 Nations unless REC is made into a legitimate 2nd tier competition. To do that, you need quality matches as well as sold out crowds and sponsorships. At the very least, 6N has to see that there is commercial appetite for these countries before letting them in. There have been some decent crowds at Georgia matches and Spain before the controversy so that's a start, but there needs to be serious consistency from the teams involved before even being considered.

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Re: Italy's Six Nations to raise the Georgia question again?

Postby Canalina » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 13:09

It's surprising that Romania v Georgia, match clou of the whole REC, has free entry
I'm not criticizing the organizers, probably it's the right choice, but it's surely also a sign of weakness by the tournament.
One of the reason why 6N is so few interested on including the rest of the Continent is right this: REC seems lightyears away from the 6N level in terms of popularity and, therefore, money revenue. In 6N, tickets go from 20 to 150 € and the stadia are sold out (apart in Italy); in REC you have to open the doors freely to have a good crowd for the biggest match.
It's not a critic, just a state of fact

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