Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

World Cup boycott

User avatar
Posts: 2539
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

World Cup boycott

Postby 4N » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 16:22

Deserves a thread of its own at this point.

Top Pacific Islands players will vote on whether to boycott the 2019 World Cup over World Rugby’s controversial World League plans. World Rugby is understood to be ready to omit Pacific Island nations Samoa, Tonga and Fiji from the 12-strong annual World League competition planned to launch as early as 2020.

The Six Nations Test teams and the Rugby Championship nations would be joined by Japan and the United States under World Rugby’s latest considerations. Promotion and relegation has been mooted to hand tier-two nations like the Pacific Islands and Georgia the chance to step up, but the competition could also be ring-fenced for 12 years at a time.

Pressure group Pacific Rugby Players Welfare (PRPW) has pledged to canvass its 600-strong membership on whether Samoa, Tonga and Fiji should stage a World Cup walkout – something chief executive Dan Leo believes would jeopardise the entire competition in Japan this autumn.

“The World Cup would lose: I don’t think the competition could go ahead if you took out a quarter of the players,” Leo said. “So that’s the impact that we have. We don’t have the commercial audience size that World Rugby wants to put into place for this competition, we don’t have that. We are setting in place a vote of all our members over whether the Pacific Island nations should boycott this year’s World Cup.

“We provide almost 20% of all professional players in terms of heritage. And almost a quarter of the players at the next World Cup will be of Pacific Islands heritage. So that’s where our strength lies, our strength in numbers, and that’s how we can mobilise.”

Leading players Owen Farrell, Johnny Sexton and Kieran Read all hit out at World Rugby’s World League plans on Thursday, criticising the blueprint for five-straight top-tier Test matches every November from a player welfare standpoint.

The International Rugby Players’ Council (IRPC) has stood firmly against World Rugby’s new competition, but now Pacific Islands player representatives have taken several giant steps forward.

Leo’s independent PRPW group has already joined forces with Pacific Rugby Players, the world’s other Pacific players’ group, over a possible World Cup boycott. And now Leo has called on the Samoa, Tonga and Fiji unions to join their plans to rebel against World Rugby’s plans.

“It is time for a legitimate player protest,” said Leo. “This would be a disaster for the Pacific Island nations, and for any nation omitted from the top 12 teams to be frank. Even if promotion and relegation were involved, all that would happen would be that the top teams would pull away from the rest.

“Now is the time for the voice of Pacific rugby to be heard through our players, so that we might head off this calamity. And we invite our national unions to join this collective effort to repel this proposal, before it is too late.”

World Rugby suggested on Thursday that some expressing fears around their new competition plans were jumping to conclusions.

“World Rugby recognises and values the importance of player considerations and input into the annual international competition discussions,” read the governing body’s statement.

“World Rugby’s commitment to player welfare matters is unwavering, and we will continue to engage and give full consideration to the welfare of players within the ongoing discussions. It is inappropriate to comment on specifics while wider stakeholder consultation is ongoing.

“However, it is important to note that some assumptions made in the statement regarding the proposed competition structure are inaccurate, and that important matters such as playing load and emerging nation opportunities are at the heart of constructive dialogue on the overall concept.”

Posts: 469
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby snapper37 » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 16:23

4N wrote:Deserves a thread of its own at this point.

Top Pacific Islands players will vote on whether to boycott the 2019 World Cup over World Rugby’s controversial World League plans. World Rugby is understood to be ready to omit Pacific Island nations Samoa, Tonga and Fiji from the 12-strong annual World League competition planned to launch as early as 2020.

The Six Nations Test teams and the Rugby Championship nations would be joined by Japan and the United States under World Rugby’s latest considerations. Promotion and relegation has been mooted to hand tier-two nations like the Pacific Islands and Georgia the chance to step up, but the competition could also be ring-fenced for 12 years at a time.

Pressure group Pacific Rugby Players Welfare (PRPW) has pledged to canvass its 600-strong membership on whether Samoa, Tonga and Fiji should stage a World Cup walkout – something chief executive Dan Leo believes would jeopardise the entire competition in Japan this autumn.

“The World Cup would lose: I don’t think the competition could go ahead if you took out a quarter of the players,” Leo said. “So that’s the impact that we have. We don’t have the commercial audience size that World Rugby wants to put into place for this competition, we don’t have that. We are setting in place a vote of all our members over whether the Pacific Island nations should boycott this year’s World Cup.

“We provide almost 20% of all professional players in terms of heritage. And almost a quarter of the players at the next World Cup will be of Pacific Islands heritage. So that’s where our strength lies, our strength in numbers, and that’s how we can mobilise.”

Leading players Owen Farrell, Johnny Sexton and Kieran Read all hit out at World Rugby’s World League plans on Thursday, criticising the blueprint for five-straight top-tier Test matches every November from a player welfare standpoint.

The International Rugby Players’ Council (IRPC) has stood firmly against World Rugby’s new competition, but now Pacific Islands player representatives have taken several giant steps forward.

Leo’s independent PRPW group has already joined forces with Pacific Rugby Players, the world’s other Pacific players’ group, over a possible World Cup boycott. And now Leo has called on the Samoa, Tonga and Fiji unions to join their plans to rebel against World Rugby’s plans.

“It is time for a legitimate player protest,” said Leo. “This would be a disaster for the Pacific Island nations, and for any nation omitted from the top 12 teams to be frank. Even if promotion and relegation were involved, all that would happen would be that the top teams would pull away from the rest.

“Now is the time for the voice of Pacific rugby to be heard through our players, so that we might head off this calamity. And we invite our national unions to join this collective effort to repel this proposal, before it is too late.”

World Rugby suggested on Thursday that some expressing fears around their new competition plans were jumping to conclusions.

“World Rugby recognises and values the importance of player considerations and input into the annual international competition discussions,” read the governing body’s statement.

“World Rugby’s commitment to player welfare matters is unwavering, and we will continue to engage and give full consideration to the welfare of players within the ongoing discussions. It is inappropriate to comment on specifics while wider stakeholder consultation is ongoing.

“However, it is important to note that some assumptions made in the statement regarding the proposed competition structure are inaccurate, and that important matters such as playing load and emerging nation opportunities are at the heart of constructive dialogue on the overall concept.”



Good.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 03076.html

User avatar
Posts: 2539
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby 4N » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 16:24

It would be nice if Canada threw in their support too.

Posts: 469
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby snapper37 » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 16:41

4N wrote:It would be nice if Canada threw in their support too.



I agree, But that will never happen as RugbyCanada has no balls. They (RC) always does as WorldRugby says.

Posts: 1647
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 17:35

Those Islander Nations won't be boycotting anything...jesus this is dumb.

User avatar
Posts: 2539
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby 4N » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 17:38

What’s dumb is that anyone thought they could get a plan like the leaked one through, in a World Cup year especially. Some real galaxy brain stuff.

Posts: 4983
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby victorsra » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 18:13

Well, not dumb. They'd give up from RWC money to fight against being left with even less money from 2020 to 2029...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 469
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby snapper37 » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 18:19

TheStroBro wrote:Those Islander Nations won't be boycotting anything...jesus this is dumb.



What do they have to lose? Most are playing professionally and Worldrugby doesn't care about the islands anyways. What's dumb is allowing the USA into a world league when they aren't good enough to be there and then not allowing promotion regelation for other teams to progress up into it. To me those teams on the bubble of making it in the Worldleague (USA,JAPAN,Italy) are scared of losing their spot to better teams after one year. .

Posts: 1647
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 18:38

victorsra wrote:Well, not dumb. They'd give up from RWC money to fight against being left with even less money from 2020 to 2029...

How would they be given less money though? The idea behind this is is SH nations want more money. WR wants more money too, so that it can fund more grants.

Like...the World Rugby HP grants that would be directed to player salaries for Liga Sul Americana...

snapper37 wrote:
What do they have to lose? Most are playing professionally and Worldrugby doesn't care about the islands anyways. What's dumb is allowing the USA into a world league when they aren't good enough to be there and then not allowing promotion regelation for other teams to progress up into it. To me those teams on the bubble of making it in the Worldleague (USA,JAPAN,Italy) are scared of losing their spot to better teams after one year. .


Their share of World Cup Revenues. Those Unions are bankrupt and fully funded by World Rugby.

Posts: 959
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 20:56
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby fullbackace » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 18:48

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:Well, not dumb. They'd give up from RWC money to fight against being left with even less money from 2020 to 2029...

How would they be given less money though? The idea behind this is is SH nations want more money. WR wants more money too, so that it can fund more grants.

Like...the World Rugby HP grants that would be directed to player salaries for Liga Sul Americana...

snapper37 wrote:
What do they have to lose? Most are playing professionally and Worldrugby doesn't care about the islands anyways. What's dumb is allowing the USA into a world league when they aren't good enough to be there and then not allowing promotion regelation for other teams to progress up into it. To me those teams on the bubble of making it in the Worldleague (USA,JAPAN,Italy) are scared of losing their spot to better teams after one year. .


Their share of World Cup Revenues. Those Unions are bankrupt and fully funded by World Rugby.


The whole sport loses meaning for Tier 2 if they're cut off from the rest of the world for decades.. And people say 12 years as if it'd be a trail period and then they'd open up for everyone, nonsense. If they get this going it's over. 12 teams will be Isolated for the good part of the century with no will or need to change anything. after 12 years they'd renew the contract and keep going down the same road. They can shove that hush money up their collective arses.
Don't Pray For Easy lives, Pray for enough Beer!

Posts: 4983
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby victorsra » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 19:07

How would they be given less money though? The idea behind this is is SH nations want more money. WR wants more money too, so that it can fund more grants.


How would they have more money if they'd be with zero matches against T1s? If they are out of everything they'd be even less interesting for sposors or broadcasters, they'd stop improving, 'losing players to T1s national teams or even clubs.

And how WL money would reach them? No one there in the WL is doing charity.

Their share of World Cup Revenues. Those Unions are bankrupt and fully funded by World Rugby.

And with the WL that way the RWC will be nothing. Woudn't generate a shit.

Like...the World Rugby HP grants that would be directed to player salaries for Liga Sul Americana...

Source?
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1647
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 19:33

So World Rugby is no longer backing the league itself? Was that clear? Because I clearly remember it being reported in here and on ARN that World Rugby was "backing" the league financially. It made no sense to me, but the explanation that I received was through HP grant increases that would be directed to player salaries since the Unions would have at least some financial stake in the league.

How do World League Revenues get distributed to T2s? WR wants to generate more revenue, part of the revenues would be retained by WR just like the RWC revenues are. This has been distributed in the past through HP grant programs to T2/T3 Unions. Fiji (Drua in the NRC), Samoa, and Tonga run almost 100% on HP grants.

Pichot is just getting it from everywhere now, even though he's still saying he's fighting for Promotion/Relegation.

Posts: 959
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 20:56
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby fullbackace » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 19:38

TheStroBro wrote:So World Rugby is no longer backing the league itself? Was that clear? Because I clearly remember it being reported in here and on ARN that World Rugby was "backing" the league financially. It made no sense to me, but the explanation that I received was through HP grant increases that would be directed to player salaries since the Unions would have at least some financial stake in the league.

How do World League Revenues get distributed to T2s? WR wants to generate more revenue, part of the revenues would be retained by WR just like the RWC revenues are. This has been distributed in the past through HP grant programs to T2/T3 Unions. Fiji (Drua in the NRC), Samoa, and Tonga run almost 100% on HP grants.

Pichot is just getting it from everywhere now, even though he's still saying he's fighting for Promotion/Relegation.


The money distributed to T2/T3 is for development and growth, so eventually the low tiers reach Teir 1. If the top tier is ring-fenced what is that money for then ?
_________________________

In other news here is the reaction from Milton Haig.

The proposed World League would have been our worst nightmare. A league featuring 12 teams and with no prospect of promotion or relegation would have been like pulling up the drawbridge on tier-two nations and to think the prospect has even been considered is hugely disappointing.

If you want to grow the game, if you want encourage developing nations, if you want a more even playing field then you need to give tier-two countries like Georgia, Fiji and Samoa more matches against tier-one opposition. That’s the only way we can improve. Our training sessions against England this week have been superb, but there is no substitute for actual matches.

We have been working really hard to grow our game domestically, to grow our competitiveness, not just at international level but at age-grade level as well. We have jumped through every hoop we have been given.

Then all of a sudden, we are told about the prospect of someone coming along and saying everything you have been doing for the past eight years is all just a waste of time because we want to do our own thing.

Make no mistake, this proposal is not about rugby. It is certainly not about the best 12 teams in the world that’s for sure because Fiji are ranked ninth and we are ranked 12th. It has nothing to do with the 12 best teams competing or sustainability because neither Japan or USA have consistently qualified a team in the Under-20 World Championships.

I keep thinking the people that run this game want to have their cake and eat it. The reason why a lot of people get involved in rugby is because there is a massive respect for fairness and looking after one and other. We battle on the field but as soon as we come off it we share a beer and a story with each other. We break bread together. Tell me where else this happens in top-level sport?

Yet it seems rugby values aren’t compatible with making money. You hear World Rugby speak about fairness and integrity over and over again. Brett Gosper and Bill Beaumont are pretty good about talking up the principles of the game that we hold so dear. Yet in the next breath, they are saying if someone is going to pay me a heck of a lot of money so all that goes out the window.

I’m glad the International Rugby Players' Council and so many ordinary rugby fans have voiced their opposition. A closed shop World League would not kill rugby in Georgia – we have invested too much in establishing it as the country’s most popular sport – but it would kill the notions that fairness and integrity still apply in this sport we love.

Milton Haig has been the head coach of the Georgian national side since 2011.
Don't Pray For Easy lives, Pray for enough Beer!

Posts: 1647
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 19:47

fullbackace wrote:
The money distributed to T2/T3 is for development and growth, so eventually the low tiers reach Teir 1. If the top tier is ring-fenced what is that money for then ?
_________________________


The US and Canada fund their High Performance Programs from High Performance grants, we do receive some development grants...but the majority of our development funding comes from Member fees. Most HP programs in T2 and T3 countries are funded via HP Grants. T2 Nations that qualify for the WC also receive additional HP grants for preparation. The difference in qualifying and not qualifying for the RWC can break a T2 Union in half.

Basically, we get about 3MM/year in HP grants right now. If you finish in the Top 12 you not only auto-qualify but you get some type of profit distribution. Not qualifying the Cup would see that reduced by half. The difference between qualifying as Americas 1 and thru the Repechage for Canada was $800k over two years.
Last edited by TheStroBro on Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Posts: 2539
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby 4N » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 19:49

A league featuring 12 teams and with no prospect of promotion or relegation would have been like pulling up the drawbridge on tier-two nations and to think the prospect has even been considered is hugely disappointing.


Exactly. I don’t blame them for still being pissed off.

Posts: 959
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 20:56
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby fullbackace » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 19:59

TheStroBro wrote:
fullbackace wrote:
The money distributed to T2/T3 is for development and growth, so eventually the low tiers reach Teir 1. If the top tier is ring-fenced what is that money for then ?
_________________________


The US and Canada fund their High Performance Programs from High Performance grants, we do receive some development grants...but the majority of our development funding comes from Member fees. Most HP programs in T2 and T3 countries are funded via HP Grants. T2 Nations that qualify for the WC also receive additional HP grants for preparation. The difference in qualifying and not qualifying for the RWC can break a T2 Union in half.

Basically, we get about 3MM/year in HP grants right now. If you finish in the Top 12 you not only auto-qualify but you get some type of profit distribution. Not qualifying the Cup would see that reduced by half. The difference between qualifying as Americas 1 and thru the Repechage for Canada was $800k over two years.


You're really saying we should be happy that we even get to play the world cup and shut up about everything else ?

I don't know about pacific nations, but Georgian people pay for the vast majority of the union budget in Georgia, the whole accounting is public.
Don't Pray For Easy lives, Pray for enough Beer!

Posts: 4983
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby victorsra » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 20:42

So World Rugby is no longer backing the league itself? Was that clear?


Well, one can read it was a T1 coup against Pichot's project. Or a WR autocoup? Or a NH counter-revolution, if you consider Pichot's first idea would be a SH revolution? Or Pichot's project was itself a coup and 6Ns did a counter-coup? :lol:
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 352
Joined: Sun, 19 Feb 2017, 18:10
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby BigG » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 21:11

I am absolutely sure Georgian RU will boycott the WC in case the latest regulation on League is adopted.

Why? 10-12 years without having games with t1 nations would be detrimental for a rugby nation like Georgia, as well as Pacific Islanders, Romania, Russia, even for rich countries like Spain, Canada, Germany.

Let's be frank and straight. The World Rugby approach to the given things very much looks like new apartheid.

We said "No" to communist regime some 25 years ago and I do not want to be a part of the new antidemocratic system.

Even if we are disqualified by the World Rugby at least we keep a pride.
Last edited by BigG on Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 21:31, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 09:18
Location: Bucharest
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby amz » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 21:29

victorsra wrote:
So World Rugby is no longer backing the league itself? Was that clear?


Well, one can read it was a T1 coup against Pichot's project. Or a WR autocoup? Or a NH counter-revolution, if you consider Pichot's first idea would be a SH revolution? Or Pichot's project was itself a coup and 6Ns did a counter-coup? :lol:


anyway it was a shit idea

Posts: 4729
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 22:03


Posts: 4729
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 22:07

The issue is the idea of locking nations out of competition. No amount of money was going to change the fact that there was the potential for teams to play no T1 nations in between world cup for 10-12 years. That's unacceptable. You can't develop unless you play better opposition.

Posts: 539
Joined: Mon, 12 May 2014, 21:05
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby dropkick » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 22:18

victorsra wrote:
So World Rugby is no longer backing the league itself? Was that clear?


Well, one can read it was a T1 coup against Pichot's project. Or a WR autocoup? Or a NH counter-revolution, if you consider Pichot's first idea would be a SH revolution? Or Pichot's project was itself a coup and 6Ns did a counter-coup? :lol:



Something like that happened in my opinion.

Online
Posts: 3303
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 22:19

I get it's a leak to hurt the whole project and undermine Pichot's credibility. But hey, Pichot is a vice-president from the international federation. He should have known better and see this coming.

Plus a lot of the reaction is because many Tier 1 fans have an almost colonial sympathy for Pacific nations but still give a damn about the global development of the game. It's blatant how Samoa is mentioned more frequently than Georgia or Uruguay.

Nations League under every single format proposed so far is a bad solution for Tier 2. The total number of T1 v T2 might be increased but you're helping two, three teams at max by denying the chance of playing such games to the rest. I want T1 games for Japan, USA, Fiji, Georgia, Tonga... Not just for two or three of them.

Posts: 4729
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 22:26

This is what I think happened:

• Pichot puts the idea of the WL on the table, with the stipulation the 6N implement promotion/relegation
• SANZAAR agree to expansion of the RC to 6 teams, but will to implement promotion/relegation
• 6N baulk at the idea of opening up, say the WL will only be considered if their competition remains closed.
• SANZAAR, wanting the money being offered, unwilling to be the only tournament that has pro/rel, considers simply expanding to 6 teams

Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:40
Location: Europe
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: World Cup boycott

Postby Thomas » Fri, 01 Mar 2019, 23:01

thatrugbyguy wrote:This is what I think happened:

• Pichot puts the idea of the WL on the table, with the stipulation the 6N implement promotion/relegation
• SANZAAR agree to expansion of the RC to 6 teams, but will to implement promotion/relegation
• 6N baulk at the idea of opening up, say the WL will only be considered if their competition remains closed.
• SANZAAR, wanting the money being offered, unwilling to be the only tournament that has pro/rel, considers simply expanding to 6 teams


One of the best summaries, you probably close to the truth than you think.

Next

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Armchair Fan, Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher and 11 guests