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Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

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Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby amz » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 06:03

http://www.espn.com.au/rugby/story/_/id ... gby-report

Seems to be more than a simple rumor. If it is true, what about the new markets and stuff like this?

Add to this the Nations league and the picture star to look like cricket

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 06:47

Apparently, its the JRFU that's pulled the plug on the Sunwolves as they believe the Universities and Top League structures will provide enough depth to feed the Japanese national team in the Nation League structure. Apparently.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 08:33

We don't make enough money? Lets reduced the numbers of our teams.
Ever heard Douglas Adams talking about New Zealand's Kakapoos and how they nearly got themself extinct? The parallel's to rugby administration are unbelievable.



If you don't know it definitely worth a watch/listen.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Thomas » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 08:56

RugbyLiebe wrote:We don't make enough money? Lets reduced the numbers of our teams.
Ever heard Douglas Adams talking about New Zealand's Kakapoos and how they nearly got themself extinct? The parallel's to rugby administration are unbelievable.



If you don't know it definitely worth a watch/listen.


I loved it, I miss Douglas Adams.. I wonder what he will make of everything today. i had not to laugh and listen to the recording and understand what you meant.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 09:03

RugbyLiebe wrote:We don't make enough money? Lets reduced the numbers of our teams.
Ever heard Douglas Adams talking about New Zealand's Kakapoos and how they nearly got themself extinct? The parallel's to rugby administration are unbelievable.



If you don't know it definitely worth a watch/listen.


Well, the Aus teams certainly didn't want to see them go.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Raven » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 10:08

I don´t see it as a major blow tbh (I know I´m gonna get bullied for this comment) I suppose Western Force has the set up ready to take their place instantly. That Indo-Aussie-Asian-Pacific League is taking ages to be confirmed and I see it more as an exhibition series rather than a League that can stand up and pull their weight on it´s own ...

Let´s face it, Japan has a pro League, and have great markee players in it, their Super Rugby venture is having them compete with strong SH sides, but that haven´t been able to "compete" at all, the Jaguares had an awful first season, but are now growing quite rapidly....

If Super Rugby wants to be more interesting there should be a Second division.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 10:16

Raven wrote:I don´t see it as a major blow tbh (I know I´m gonna get bullied for this comment) I suppose Western Force has the set up ready to take their place instantly.


First time I hear that the Western Force could replace them. Do you have a source for this? I thought they would just axe a team without adding another one.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby 4N » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 12:24

Japan pretty much said they needed Sunwolves in order to make the World League work.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Thomas » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 12:40

Didn't Sanzaar choose Sun wolves ahead the Force? the vast opportunities in the Japanese and Asian Market?

So what went wrong?

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 12:43

SANZAAR execs excel themselves again!

Shall we expand into a market of 120m people, in the correct timezone for 9 of our sides including our biggest other economy, that had 20m people watch a single rugby match in recent memory and has a team which draws very respectable crowds or shall we sack them off for a nation in the wrong timezone, with a terrible currency and is demonstrably getting into bed with another continent's rugby system?

The incompetence of SANZAAR to make professional domestic rugby pay its way is mind boggling.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Buffalo » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 15:09

Thomas wrote:Didn't Sanzaar choose Sun wolves ahead the Force? the vast opportunities in the Japanese and Asian Market?

So what went wrong?


Apparently South Africa want the Sunwolves gone and New Zealand will do what it can to make the Saffas happy. Australia sees value in them but have limited pull. Everyone, but the most stubborn people, see the long term benefits of an Asia-Pacific league all in reasonable timezones except for the people who have the power to make it happen. Particularly now that South Africa has opened the flood gates to the Northern hemisphere by saying their best players can go there and still play for the Springboks. Which removes the overall competitive games excuse that has often been thrown around.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby DotJP » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 16:24

There are some reasons, but, according to a Japanese media, it said the direct factor would be financial problems. SANZAAR required Sunwolves( or JRFU) to pay about ¥1 billion per year to remain the league. But they refused the suggestion. And it seems that JRFU also can not support Sunwolves well.

JRFU will hold a press conference on 22nd.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Higgik » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 17:50

Buffalo wrote:
Thomas wrote:Didn't Sanzaar choose Sun wolves ahead the Force? the vast opportunities in the Japanese and Asian Market?

So what went wrong?


Apparently South Africa want the Sunwolves gone and New Zealand will do what it can to make the Saffas happy. Australia sees value in them but have limited pull. Everyone, but the most stubborn people, see the long term benefits of an Asia-Pacific league all in reasonable timezones except for the people who have the power to make it happen. Particularly now that South Africa has opened the flood gates to the Northern hemisphere by saying their best players can go there and still play for the Springboks. Which removes the overall competitive games excuse that has often been thrown around.

Best all round would be a Euro-Africa league, Asia-Pacific league and an America’s League.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 18:58

Basically they wanted all of the Sunwolves TV money, and then some. When Japan is one of the few places that has good attendance...farewell 120MM person market. The sooner Super Rugby implodes the better for that area of the world. Fix your commercial structures damnit.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby rey200 » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 19:38

I have a terrific idea for Sanzaar:

Have Super Rugby with 4!!! teams. Names: New Zealand Black Kiwis, Australia Kangabys, South Africa Gemsbokboere, Argentina Jaguarundis

Then a sparkling Round Robin Away + Home -> 6 games per team! Great, no more players' work overload.
To fill the remaining weeks have a test series between NZ West vs East or Pretoria vs Jo'burg, best of 5. Call the referee umpire. Do it. I think everyone can agree this is a fantastic plan.
Ceterum censeo Sex Nationes esse augendas.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Raven » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 21:10

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Raven wrote:I don´t see it as a major blow tbh (I know I´m gonna get bullied for this comment) I suppose Western Force has the set up ready to take their place instantly.


First time I hear that the Western Force could replace them. Do you have a source for this? I thought they would just axe a team without adding another one.


It was an expresion more than a piece of news - sorry for misleading. Supposedly they will leave it in 14 teams and play round robin eliminating the conference system; not a bad idea IMPO, the conference has been weird since they sarted it. There are however versions (saw it in a newspaper) that South Africa want to try and have one of their franchises back.

I say it again, create a second division so you can have more / extra TV right deals, a better relation with the fans (now if a team starts a season badly you can see how stadiums if that side never increase their attendance, whereas if a side is about to face relegation it might create better urge for support?), it can also help further expansion in a lower division, without "bothering" the untouchables...

Super Rugby: Crusaders, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Blues, Highlanders, Rebels, Reds, Brumbies, Waratahs, Stormers, Lions, Bulls, Sharks & Jaguares.

Div. 2: Western Force, Sunwolves, Fijian Latui, Kagifa Samoa, South China Tigers, Asia Pacific Dragons, Cheetahs, Southern Kings.

Have a pathway plan for a further team expansion in other Asian countries / South - North America.... hell, it shouldn´t be too hard to have something good going there, just because the 2 South African franchises have found a confort zone in the Pro14, I think it´s ridiculous that they got to be admitted over other European alternatives.
But I´ve learnt to understand that the people that run this have completely different intentions, I even wonder if they were rugby fans or just "liked the sport enough to get involved" and just do and undo their businness...

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Higgik » Wed, 20 Mar 2019, 22:31

Buffalo wrote:
Thomas wrote:Didn't Sanzaar choose Sun wolves ahead the Force? the vast opportunities in the Japanese and Asian Market?

So what went wrong?


Apparently South Africa want the Sunwolves gone and New Zealand will do what it can to make the Saffas happy. Australia sees value in them but have limited pull. Everyone, but the most stubborn people, see the long term benefits of an Asia-Pacific league all in reasonable timezones except for the people who have the power to make it happen. Particularly now that South Africa has opened the flood gates to the Northern hemisphere by saying their best players can go there and still play for the Springboks. Which removes the overall competitive games excuse that has often been thrown around.

Best all round would be a Euro-Africa league, Asia-Pacific league and an America’s League.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Tobar » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 00:22

TheStroBro wrote:Basically they wanted all of the Sunwolves TV money, and then some. When Japan is one of the few places that has good attendance...farewell 120MM person market. The sooner Super Rugby implodes the better for that area of the world. Fix your commercial structures damnit.


A big reason I don’t want any USA Super Rugby team

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 01:01

TheStroBro wrote:Basically they wanted all of the Sunwolves TV money, and then some. When Japan is one of the few places that has good attendance...farewell 120MM person market. The sooner Super Rugby implodes the better for that area of the world. Fix your commercial structures damnit.


There's a bit of a conspiracy theory beginning to make its way around that Japan looked like it might begin to mature as a market for SR post RWC and this could tilt the balance of power away from SA so they pushed to scupper it.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 08:05

Raven wrote:I say it again, create a second division so you can have more / extra TV right deals, a better relation with the fans (now if a team starts a season badly you can see how stadiums if that side never increase their attendance, whereas if a side is about to face relegation it might create better urge for support?), it can also help further expansion in a lower division, without "bothering" the untouchables...

Super Rugby: Crusaders, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Blues, Highlanders, Rebels, Reds, Brumbies, Waratahs, Stormers, Lions, Bulls, Sharks & Jaguares.

Div. 2: Western Force, Sunwolves, Fijian Latui, Kagifa Samoa, South China Tigers, Asia Pacific Dragons, Cheetahs, Southern Kings.


I think we discussed this years ago in length. What I remember is that two big problems arise. Funding for the second division + attendance for the 2nd division. Also I've yet to be shown a closed shop league with a 2nd divsion (the English soccer system being the only known one with 4 divisions is still kind of open). I think the only viable system is the NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB one. But that doesn't work as most rugby fans are always moaning about teams being "too bad to compete", while American sport fans do realize that you need somebody to loose heavily to have teams with outstanding season records statistically (google Gaussian distribution if you don't believe me). That's actually a really deep paradox that rugby fans deny Gauß's laws and think that an equal distribution is possible and it actually causes massive problems when you try to expand the game.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Raven » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 09:50

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Raven wrote:I say it again, create a second division so you can have more / extra TV right deals, a better relation with the fans (now if a team starts a season badly you can see how stadiums if that side never increase their attendance, whereas if a side is about to face relegation it might create better urge for support?), it can also help further expansion in a lower division, without "bothering" the untouchables...

Super Rugby: Crusaders, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Blues, Highlanders, Rebels, Reds, Brumbies, Waratahs, Stormers, Lions, Bulls, Sharks & Jaguares.

Div. 2: Western Force, Sunwolves, Fijian Latui, Kagifa Samoa, South China Tigers, Asia Pacific Dragons, Cheetahs, Southern Kings.


I think we discussed this years ago in length. What I remember is that two big problems arise. Funding for the second division + attendance for the 2nd division. Also I've yet to be shown a closed shop league with a 2nd divsion (the English soccer system being the only known one with 4 divisions is still kind of open). I think the only viable system is the NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB one. But that doesn't work as most rugby fans are always moaning about teams being "too bad to compete", while American sport fans do realize that you need somebody to loose heavily to have teams with outstanding season records statistically (google Gaussian distribution if you don't believe me). That's actually a really deep paradox that rugby fans deny Gauß's laws and think that an equal distribution is possible and it actually causes massive problems when you try to expand the game.


Yes, I think I rememeber that discussion, but now it´s not just 3 teams being axed, there´s a 4th one and an entire market (I know, part of the reason why they are being axed is because the SANZAAR see no revenue in that market as of yet..., but it´s also difficult with one franchise only I suppose right?) I don´t think the attendance of the second division would be a massive issue judging by the attendances of Super Rugby... just use smaller stadiums.
If WR would put the money where their mouth is they´d find a way to back this like they do with the UAR enabeling them to have their Jaguares, Arg XV in the ARC and now possibly (almost certainly) in the Currie Cup First Div.

But I get your point of being a never ending story, and to be fair, it´s worthless time of discussion is we know for a fact it ain´t gonna happen. Doesn´t mean I would be excited about it.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 10:44

In an ideal world we would have strong national competitions with a soccer style Champions League in every continent. Maybe a club/franchise world cup every two years to top that.

But yeah, years, decades and centuries of not thinking two or three steps combined with ongoing snobbishness have left us with a sport only pro in 12-14 countries.
What we have now is an okay doing single franchise in Japan and they decide to axe it. And announce it in the year the RWC is being held there. That is a special level of stupidity for a organisation like SANZAAR who claim over and over again, that they need more money. I mean there must be more to it. There must be at least a sort of plan how to develop. My 2-year-old develops better plans, when wanting something.

But on the other hand it is rugby. And that's the game, which is global because it is the greatest sport on this planet. And even the worst administrations a sport has ever seen couldn't stop the game become a global sport (Yeah, cricket is even worse, maxing out every bad clichee about incompetence at the top of British society you can think of).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 16:37

A full rund robin would be terrible for the Jaguares. Having 4 matches in Oceania every year is terrible for player welfare and media coverage.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Tobar » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 18:47

RugbyLiebe wrote:In an ideal world we would have strong national competitions with a soccer style Champions League in every continent. Maybe a club/franchise world cup every two years to top that.


So basically like the Champions Cup. Super Rugby is essentially the Champions Cup for SANZAAR, except there is no non-Champions Cup matchup. And while the league doesn't exist yet, plans are for a playoff between MLR and LSR winners.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 20:38

NaBUru38 wrote:A full rund robin would be terrible for the Jaguares. Having 4 matches in Oceania every year is terrible for player welfare and media coverage.


That's the general feeling here. When our teams head off to SA and Arg we lose a lot of momentum. Ratings so far this season have been comfortably up. In some case more than 20% but the games in SA are pulling practically no one here due to the time zones issues.

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