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Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby MikeN » Thu, 21 Mar 2019, 21:00

Working Class Rugger wrote:Apparently, its the JRFU that's pulled the plug on the Sunwolves as they believe the Universities and Top League structures will provide enough depth to feed the Japanese national team in the Nation League structure. Apparently.

How did the Japanese rugby public take to the Sunwolves? How well supported were they compared to the existing teams in Japanese rugby?
I'm always sceptical of 'made-up' teams like these - and Jaguares, and the NZ teams - that they are artificial and draw support away from established teams and comps.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 03:05

MikeN wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:Apparently, its the JRFU that's pulled the plug on the Sunwolves as they believe the Universities and Top League structures will provide enough depth to feed the Japanese national team in the Nation League structure. Apparently.

How did the Japanese rugby public take to the Sunwolves? How well supported were they compared to the existing teams in Japanese rugby?
I'm always sceptical of 'made-up' teams like these - and Jaguares, and the NZ teams - that they are artificial and draw support away from established teams and comps.


They've been averaging over 15k a their games in Tokyo. Crowds are always pretty enthusiastic as well. Even with limited local player involvement. From what I can find regarding Top League attendances which averaged at little over 5800 a game in the 18/19 season them comfortable draw more in attendance per game.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby 4N » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 03:30


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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 04:00

It's going to be hard to have any sympathy for SANZAAR when in 10 years SR is a full on feeder for Europe, Japan, and possibly the US. This is a complete white flag to keeping up with Europe.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 05:56

Now GRR should think bigger regarding Japan and try to have Top League teams involved...

And congratulatórios to everybody involved in SANZAAR. Losing Japan, their most promising market for the future, and anouncing it in the RWC year. Seriously, what Asian rugby got with the RWC there? Simply zero. In 2019 Japan LOST a Super Rugby and had no aditional spots in the RWC.... remarkable fail in advancing rugby in the World's biggest continent.
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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby iul » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 07:41

They should go back to their domestic competitions being the main thing and with SR being like the Euro cups... a relatively short tournament, possibly with two divisions where all the domestic sides play in addition to their domestic scene.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:24

iul wrote:They should go back to their domestic competitions being the main thing and with SR being like the Euro cups... a relatively short tournament, possibly with two divisions where all the domestic sides play in addition to their domestic scene.


If RA hadn't burnt the bridges so completely I'd prefer to see the Aus franchises to move across to GRR en mass. Let NZ and SA wallow in the structure of their own making.
Last edited by Working Class Rugger on Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:25

But now serious, what the hell are they really thinking. There must be a cunning masterplan somewhere,
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:25

One other thing I don't understand.

Why do they have to reduce to 14 teams to play a round robin? Why can't they do that with 15 teams? Arguably its better with 15 teams as everyone gets 7 home games rather than some having to make do with 6?

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:26

RugbyLiebe wrote:But now serious, what the hell are they really thinking. There must be a cunning masterplan somewhere,


LOLOLOLOLOL...

SANZAAR doesn't do masterplans. The do policy on the fly.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:30

NaBUru38 wrote:A full rund robin would be terrible for the Jaguares. Having 4 matches in Oceania every year is terrible for player welfare and media coverage.


Why exactly? I'd imagine they simply have a 4-week-long-tour. Saves costs and I don't see an issue with player welfare.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:30

Working Class Rugger wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:But now serious, what the hell are they really thinking. There must be a cunning masterplan somewhere,


LOLOLOLOLOL...

SANZAAR doesn't do masterplans. The do policy on the fly.


Nah, they are not that stupid, right :D
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 08:32

sk 88 wrote:One other thing I don't understand.

Why do they have to reduce to 14 teams to play a round robin? Why can't they do that with 15 teams? Arguably its better with 15 teams as everyone gets 7 home games rather than some having to make do with 6?


Apparently it has something to do with the SA franchises not being fans of the travel. And the Sunwolves not being a drawcard for their teams. Though it has been noted that the Aus franchises were increasingly developing business relationships with Japanese companies at an increasing pace and with the Sunwolves featuring in the Aus conference both Aus teams and the Sunwolves themselves beginning to develop real interest among both sets of fans. Now, that doesn't guarantee that it would see greater returns on TV deals in the future but if it continued to develop as it was there was the chance that the balance of power in terms of money would shift from SA to Aus/NZ and Japan.

Without that bargaining chip SA would be left exposed. Hence why alongside Arg who were always going to vote with them them pushed hard for the Sunwolves expulsion.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Thomas » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 10:22

Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:One other thing I don't understand.

Why do they have to reduce to 14 teams to play a round robin? Why can't they do that with 15 teams? Arguably its better with 15 teams as everyone gets 7 home games rather than some having to make do with 6?


Apparently it has something to do with the SA franchises not being fans of the travel. And the Sunwolves not being a drawcard for their teams. Though it has been noted that the Aus franchises were increasingly developing business relationships with Japanese companies at an increasing pace and with the Sunwolves featuring in the Aus conference both Aus teams and the Sunwolves themselves beginning to develop real interest among both sets of fans. Now, that doesn't guarantee that it would see greater returns on TV deals in the future but if it continued to develop as it was there was the chance that the balance of power in terms of money would shift from SA to Aus/NZ and Japan.

Without that bargaining chip SA would be left exposed. Hence why alongside Arg who were always going to vote with them them pushed hard for the Sunwolves expulsion.


Which shows AP's fingerprints on the smoking gun, He has made all the right noises. the sole purpose is to take over from Beaumont and for Argentina be in the top table for a very long time. I would bet he would sacrifice the Jaguares to ensure the World League/Nations cup (whatever you want to call it) comes to fruition and Pumas can play in it. I don't trust him. there I said it.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby nick511 » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 12:19

From what I saw here from the NZRU they were set apparent "targets" when they joined the comp and according to Steve Tew these weren't met. Although it wasn't obvious as to what these were but you'd assume it was on field performance considering they got decent crowd numbers.

The other thing was the union refused to underwrite the team in the future which was pretty much the final straw.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 13:08

nick511 wrote:From what I saw here from the NZRU they were set apparent "targets" when they joined the comp and according to Steve Tew these weren't met. Although it wasn't obvious as to what these were but you'd assume it was on field performance considering they got decent crowd numbers.

The other thing was the union refused to underwrite the team in the future which was pretty much the final straw.


The question which remains is what kind of things the Japanese Union should have guaranteed. And I've read things like pay for the travelling of the others teams, a participation fee and giving 25% of their next tv-deal to South Africa. This smells like "how to become the biggest a** in business"-tactics by Sanzaar all over. "But we offered them a solution. Japan decided to pull the plug themself", when in reality you ask for things you know in advance the other side can't accept.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 13:12

Thomas wrote:Which shows AP's fingerprints on the smoking gun, He has made all the right noises. the sole purpose is to take over from Beaumont and for Argentina be in the top table for a very long time. I would bet he would sacrifice the Jaguares to ensure the World League/Nations cup (whatever you want to call it) comes to fruition and Pumas can play in it. I don't trust him. there I said it.


Or maybe it shows that, apart from the global growth tragedy all of the Home Nations administrations are, their former colonies' admins are the same. AP at least as a proven record of growth with the Americas. None of the others have that.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 14:25

Imagine if Japan reaches the QFs in the RWC and that makes all the country stop to watch rugby.

SANZAAR decided to give up from the richest and biggest city they have now in the league before the event that could boost rugby there. Masterclass move. Congratulations.
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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 14:53

Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:One other thing I don't understand.

Why do they have to reduce to 14 teams to play a round robin? Why can't they do that with 15 teams? Arguably its better with 15 teams as everyone gets 7 home games rather than some having to make do with 6?


Apparently it has something to do with the SA franchises not being fans of the travel. And the Sunwolves not being a drawcard for their teams. Though it has been noted that the Aus franchises were increasingly developing business relationships with Japanese companies at an increasing pace and with the Sunwolves featuring in the Aus conference both Aus teams and the Sunwolves themselves beginning to develop real interest among both sets of fans. Now, that doesn't guarantee that it would see greater returns on TV deals in the future but if it continued to develop as it was there was the chance that the balance of power in terms of money would shift from SA to Aus/NZ and Japan.

Without that bargaining chip SA would be left exposed. Hence why alongside Arg who were always going to vote with them them pushed hard for the Sunwolves expulsion.


No one goes to games in South Africa...blaming the Sunwolves is just a feint.

nick511 wrote:From what I saw here from the NZRU they were set apparent "targets" when they joined the comp and according to Steve Tew these weren't met. Although it wasn't obvious as to what these were but you'd assume it was on field performance considering they got decent crowd numbers.

The other thing was the union refused to underwrite the team in the future which was pretty much the final straw.

Setting unreachable targets for a growth sector is rather hilarious. However, what targets are these? For them to sell out in Singapore (never gonna happen). They have great attendance at home...better than some NZ sides.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Thomas » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 15:55

What is also laughable is forcing Sunwolves to stick to the existing broadcast deal and forced to play in 2020. The Sunwolves should tell SA and SANZAAR to stick it or forced the South African teams that they will only play in Tokyo next year. Maybe you are right that AP has been instrumental in the growth in the Americas but I cannot see it. I do know one thing the UAR have sided with AP and will do whatever he says.

AUS/NZ have missed an open goal in using SR to expand in the pacific.

Direct quotes from an article published by Brett McKay:

Though the SANZAAR partners are at odds over the future of the Sunwolves, they are all very much – Argentina included; they’ve been strangely silent on this Super Rugby issue – in universal agreement about their support of World Rugby’s Nations Championship concept.

And that perhaps provides a clue as to why this decision has been made.

The Nations Championship needs The Rugby Championship to be united and staunch in its support. The only way World Rugby can have any chance of warding off the very real threat of the Six Nations cashing in on their own lucrative offers is to bring the southern hemisphere competition into the same conversation.

This short-term narrow-mindedness in punting the Sunwolves side despite everything they’ve brought to Super Rugby in just three seasons – and the numerous financial opportunities that have evolved for the nine teams either side of the ditch – in favour of the long-term possibilities and major paydays for the national bodies by going all in on the Nations Championship.

Japan won’t need Super Rugby if the plan gets up. Argentina are bang up for another lift in global rugby fortunes.


SANZAAR's Press release

https://super.rugby/superrugby/news/sup ... -14-teams/

what caught my eye is this paragraph:

Marinos added, “SANZAAR was advised by the Japan Rugby Football Union (JRFU) in early March that they would no longer be in a position to financially underwrite the Sunwolves future participation post 2020. The future of the Sunwolves will now be determined by the JRFU which has determined that Super Rugby no longer remains the best pathway for the development of players for the national team.”


As far as I knew JFRU never underwrote Sunwolves? they believed their Top league was the best pathway for development. that's well known. Also I cannot see any evidence of Japan Rugby evident interest in Super Rugby beyond their hosting of the Rugby World Cup later this year. Something is off here.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 22 Mar 2019, 17:59

but whats about this:

“We have presented options to them around the establishment of a Super Rugby Asia-Pacific competition structure including Japan, the Pacific Islands, North and South America and Hong Kong. The concept includes linking high performance programmes of such nations into the potential competition structure. The aim is to deliver a competitive and sustainable international pathway that can align to both current and future considerations around the international calendar.”


Are they going to incorporate GRR? Can we understand this way?
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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 01:16

Frankly, the last few years of Super Rugby expansion has been nothing but a complete mess. We are back to where we were 10 years ago with the exception being the 3rd biggest rugby market in Australia is no longer present.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 04:59

nick511 wrote:From what I saw here from the NZRU they were set apparent "targets" when they joined the comp and according to Steve Tew these weren't met. Although it wasn't obvious as to what these were but you'd assume it was on field performance considering they got decent crowd numbers.

The other thing was the union refused to underwrite the team in the future which was pretty much the final straw.


Because on top of funding the teams operations they had to pay a participation fee that no other Union had to. That's setting them up to fail.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 05:02

TheStroBro wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:One other thing I don't understand.

Why do they have to reduce to 14 teams to play a round robin? Why can't they do that with 15 teams? Arguably its better with 15 teams as everyone gets 7 home games rather than some having to make do with 6?


Apparently it has something to do with the SA franchises not being fans of the travel. And the Sunwolves not being a drawcard for their teams. Though it has been noted that the Aus franchises were increasingly developing business relationships with Japanese companies at an increasing pace and with the Sunwolves featuring in the Aus conference both Aus teams and the Sunwolves themselves beginning to develop real interest among both sets of fans. Now, that doesn't guarantee that it would see greater returns on TV deals in the future but if it continued to develop as it was there was the chance that the balance of power in terms of money would shift from SA to Aus/NZ and Japan.

Without that bargaining chip SA would be left exposed. Hence why alongside Arg who were always going to vote with them them pushed hard for the Sunwolves expulsion.


No one goes to games in South Africa...blaming the Sunwolves is just a feint.

nick511 wrote:From what I saw here from the NZRU they were set apparent "targets" when they joined the comp and according to Steve Tew these weren't met. Although it wasn't obvious as to what these were but you'd assume it was on field performance considering they got decent crowd numbers.

The other thing was the union refused to underwrite the team in the future which was pretty much the final straw.

Setting unreachable targets for a growth sector is rather hilarious. However, what targets are these? For them to sell out in Singapore (never gonna happen). They have great attendance at home...better than some NZ sides.


Likely better than probably all of the NZ teams in attendance. The having to play home games out of Singapore was just lunacy. I watched the opening of the GRR exhibition season last night. I would like to see the Sunwolves pop up there as I thinking it would suit the Japanese style better which has always been up tempo.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 05:04

Thomas wrote:What is also laughable is forcing Sunwolves to stick to the existing broadcast deal and forced to play in 2020. The Sunwolves should tell SA and SANZAAR to stick it or forced the South African teams that they will only play in Tokyo next year. Maybe you are right that AP has been instrumental in the growth in the Americas but I cannot see it. I do know one thing the UAR have sided with AP and will do whatever he says.

AUS/NZ have missed an open goal in using SR to expand in the pacific.

Direct quotes from an article published by Brett McKay:

Though the SANZAAR partners are at odds over the future of the Sunwolves, they are all very much – Argentina included; they’ve been strangely silent on this Super Rugby issue – in universal agreement about their support of World Rugby’s Nations Championship concept.

And that perhaps provides a clue as to why this decision has been made.

The Nations Championship needs The Rugby Championship to be united and staunch in its support. The only way World Rugby can have any chance of warding off the very real threat of the Six Nations cashing in on their own lucrative offers is to bring the southern hemisphere competition into the same conversation.

This short-term narrow-mindedness in punting the Sunwolves side despite everything they’ve brought to Super Rugby in just three seasons – and the numerous financial opportunities that have evolved for the nine teams either side of the ditch – in favour of the long-term possibilities and major paydays for the national bodies by going all in on the Nations Championship.

Japan won’t need Super Rugby if the plan gets up. Argentina are bang up for another lift in global rugby fortunes.


SANZAAR's Press release

https://super.rugby/superrugby/news/sup ... -14-teams/

what caught my eye is this paragraph:

Marinos added, “SANZAAR was advised by the Japan Rugby Football Union (JRFU) in early March that they would no longer be in a position to financially underwrite the Sunwolves future participation post 2020. The future of the Sunwolves will now be determined by the JRFU which has determined that Super Rugby no longer remains the best pathway for the development of players for the national team.”


As far as I knew JFRU never underwrote Sunwolves? they believed their Top league was the best pathway for development. that's well known. Also I cannot see any evidence of Japan Rugby evident interest in Super Rugby beyond their hosting of the Rugby World Cup later this year. Something is off here.


No, prior to their entry there were a few articles detailing of the financial guarantee's they had to supply and one of them was for participation. It was a pretty hefty chunk of change.

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