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Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 14:49

amz wrote:Well, I presume 2018 left some questions mark concerning Pichot. Also that world league he was planning looked like a closed shop, even more for T2. I don't mind if he goes.

Don't agree completely. Looked a closed shop, but could be better than the current closed shop.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Silver Fox » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:06

amz wrote:Well, I presume 2018 left some questions mark concerning Pichot. Also that world league he was planning looked like a closed shop, even more for T2. I don't mind if he goes.

You clearly have not been following the news about this world league on this forum.
The format Pichot initially proposed fully incorporated all nations (cartel AND T2) and had hardly any interference with 6N or RC.
Only then cartel powers within WR hijacked the idea and turned it into a closed shop thing to maximise profit for themselves.
It was in that stage that World Rugby came out with that horrible rushed and improvident video and tried to sell it to the WR council.

The irony of it all is that now, even on this T2-forum, Pichots name is associated with this failure and a competiton format he didn't even support in the first place.

Looking back at it, I think that that also was the moment the Beaumont-Pichot tandem broke up and the infighting really started.
Last edited by Silver Fox on Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:07

My opinion on this matter is probably different from the one of you all. My feeling it that the problem is not World Rugby, the problem is Pichot. I admit to know few about him, but almost all his acts and words seem to me the acts and words of a egocentric protester, aiming for attention on himself more than aiming to the good of rugby. He always wears the role of the not-allineated, the one who is not part of the system, the rebel one. In politics, he would be the classic populist, imo.
They have not informed him about that decision? Maybe it's because they don't estimate him, or because they think he would have contested the decisione just for the pleasure to contest. And if your boss don't collaborate with you, go to your boss and talk with him; don't write a tweet to the world

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Silver Fox » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:09

I can agree that Pichots political talents are probably poor.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby amz » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:27

Silver Fox wrote:
amz wrote:Well, I presume 2018 left some questions mark concerning Pichot. Also that world league he was planning looked like a closed shop, even more for T2. I don't mind if he goes.

You clearly have not been following the news about this world league on this forum.
The format Pichot initially proposed fully incorporated all nations (cartel AND T2) and had hardly any interference with 6N or RC.
Only then cartel powers within WR hijacked the idea and turned it into a closed shop thing to maximise profit for themselves.
It was in that stage that World Rugby came out with that horrible rushed and improvident video and tried to sell it to the WR council.

The irony of it all is that now, even on this T2-forum, Pichots name is associated with this failure and a competiton format he didn't even support in the first place.

Looking back at it, I think that that also was the moment the Beaumont-Pichot tandem broke up and the infighting really started.


Cmon, Pichot denied and said he is against a closed shop when he was confronted with this perspective, not before and after even some T1 nations were not happy with the plan. Saying Pichot wasn't behind and he was the positive hero is a joke really...

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:43

Silver Fox wrote:
amz wrote:Well, I presume 2018 left some questions mark concerning Pichot. Also that world league he was planning looked like a closed shop, even more for T2. I don't mind if he goes.

You clearly have not been following the news about this world league on this forum.
The format Pichot initially proposed fully incorporated all nations (cartel AND T2) and had hardly any interference with 6N or RC.
Only then cartel powers within WR hijacked the idea and turned it into a closed shop thing to maximise profit for themselves.
It was in that stage that World Rugby came out with that horrible rushed and improvident video and tried to sell it to the WR council.

The irony of it all is that now, even on this T2-forum, Pichots name is associated with this failure and a competiton format he didn't even support in the first place.

Looking back at it, I think that that also was the moment the Beaumont-Pichot tandem broke up and the infighting really started.

Agree more with Silver Fox. Pichot has personal ambition, not an hero, but more open minded.

Pichot is clearly more interested in the growth of T2 than Beaumont (the guy that believes sevens is more suitable for T2s, right?)
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby amz » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:50

victorsra wrote:Pichot is clearly more interested in the growth of T2 than Beaumont (the guy that believes sevens is more suitable for T2s, right?)


Pichot was interested in growing T2 rugby in Americas only, not world wide. How many times did he visited Rugby Europe or any talked / visited European Unions ?

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 15:57

He definitely favored the Americas, but he tried to break the 6N cartel. But it is fair to say it would be easier for him to change the Americas, where he was wanted, than Europe, where there are other interests. Politicaly easier. Doesn't mean he wasn't interested in Europe, looking at his declarations. After all, he was the vice chariman, not the chairman or the whole council.

Again, better (less worse, whatever) than Beaumont. Perspective.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 16:23

You can't break the 6N cartel. Rugby in the Six Nations countries could continue without RWC or test matches outside the Six Nations. There is enough interest and money in Six Nations, English Premiership, French Top 14, Pro 14, and European Champions Cup; those unions don't need World Rugby or anyone else.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 16:55

Yes, the league's concept should've been different. I said before I believe the only way to accomodate interests is to have core teams (that can't be relegated) and non-core teams (subject to relegation) - concept used by Volleyball and European Basketball. Otherwise until T2 rugby is a powerfuul market nothing will happen (and Japan is not T2).
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 18:19

The Vice Chair is not an independent director like the Chairman is. So he could totally favor the Americas if he desired. However, World Rugby is trying to milk the giant American Sports Cow and suck the marrow from it after they've put it on a spit.

That you think he didn't care about Tier 2s is hilarious. No, it's because he's trying to grow the game away from the Cartel Nations (of which he is a member) is why he lost his position. Was the World League Concept as originally leaked a bad format? Yes. But that's because Beaumont and Gosper publicly lowered the value of Test Rugby when their T1 partners make money hand over fist there. It also continued to push the International game over the club game. It was overall a bad concept, but it was something different than the current system where only the bad T1s will tour Tier 2s.

The problem remains is that WR governance gives total power to the Cartel Nations. FIFA- one country one vote. WR? Well est plus complique.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 18:56

Now the new up-to-date word is "Cartel"?
There's a political party in my country, a very populist one: they made electoral fortune with the word "Caste", thus suggesting the existence of a little but strong group of powerful people willing to preserve their dominance in spite of the common people. This "Cartel" seems to me more or less the same thing

TheStroBro wrote:The Vice Chair is not an independent director like the Chairman is. So he could totally favor the Americas if he desired

Not easy to understand this point. A vice-chairman could totally favor his own continent and that is ok?

TheStroBro wrote:The problem remains is that WR governance gives total power to the Cartel Nations. FIFA- one country one vote. WR? Well est plus complique.

But the WR council is becoming slowly more and more open to all the world. I count now 22 people not being part of the "Cartel" in the council, even considering Italy part of the Cartel (and many italian fans would laugh at it, they consider Italy the main victim of World Rugby)
https://www.world.rugby/organisation/structure/council
(note: Pichot is the only one with the sneakers because he is not aligned, he is a rebel, you can't bend him to the bourgeois values!)

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 19:03

Canalina wrote:Now the new up-to-date word is "Cartel"?
There's a political party in my country, a very populist one: they made electoral fortune with the word "Caste", thus suggesting the existence of a little but strong group of powerful people willing to preserve their dominance in spite of the common people. This "Cartel" seems to me more or less the same thing

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartello_Phoebus

P.S: we imported the 'casta' concept to Spain a few years ago. Now that the importers are in power we've forgotten it.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 19:28

Yes, Cartel Rugby = T1 Rugby.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 20:39

But "cartel" suggests that they are making an alliance to defend themselves from the T2 and T3 nations and I hardly agree with this thesis

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 20:44

Well, it's a bunch of companies conspiring to prevent fair competition.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 20:55

Canalina wrote:But "cartel" suggests that they are making an alliance to defend themselves from the T2 and T3 nations and I hardly agree with this thesis


You can argue there is a difference between 6N and Sanzaar and probably we should see them as different blocs. But inside 6N maybe only France is not realy alligned. The other 5 act as a cartel. The same old Home Nations cartel that Italy joined. You can also argue Italy helped in the Continental Shield, but almost all the time it is alligned with the Home Nations - and due to its own vulnerability. We can also see some willingness in Wales or England to be more open, but it is clearly not a dominant thought. After all, cartel partners are never homogenous. But share most of the wishes.

So, Cartel Rugby is a pretty close concept - and a provocative one, which is the most important thing.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Scoob » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 07:43

The next couple of years is going to be very interesting.
SANZAAR have real issues with finding cash. Australia rugby is buried in the biggest hole that not even the biggest excavator on the planet could bring them to the surface of this mess.
Steve Tew has resigned at the time when even he knows that finding money to fund NZRFU interests are down the sink.
Sth Africa dont know what competition they want to get involved in,with fingers in the pie on both sides of hemisphere.

The new Japanese rugby competition and Major league rugby are more issues that SANZAAR got to deal with,in way of leaking players overseas.
We got the 6 nations teams,is it there job to grow the game? No. Could they do more to help? Yes. Will they do more? No. Does the six nations hold all the financial muscle? Yes
So what can be done? Well look at World rugby chiefs? Pichot has tried to shake things up,which came crashing down to earth. Beaumont has tiptoed around everything suggesting dialogue is the answer. Which is quite ironic when every dictator in the world suggests dialogue and endless meetings when uprisings try to happen. And yes from a political to a sporting front,i think an uprising will occur,probably lead by NZL against World rugby and 6 nations teams. Its how they go about it that will determine how successful they are.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 07:57

Australia and New Zealand must go on a Crusade (no pun intended) to integrate the Japanese and North American markets at T1 level through internationals and club. NZ in particular has a highly marketable brand to sell globally which has been the primary driver of SANZAAR's value, people want to watch NZ teams play because they are the best.

If South Africa wants to keep the dominance of the Springboks they must follow suit. Aligning with Europe will not hold much for their future, no one in South Africa cares about playing Europeans. They must go alone and focus domestically with private investment allowing to contract more players at a younger age or work together with Australia, New Zealand, France, Japan and the rest of the World Rugby Allies against the Home Nation's Axis powers.

The 6 nation's unions have shown they are also desperate for money to combat the wealthy French and English clubs, they are heading down a dark path with CVC which will potentially cripple their future growth. They will keep developing more high level players and have the means to keep them at home but no one will care if international rugby is all behind a paywall and they will squeeze all that is left of the British and French markets for international British and French rugby. So they will have to look more globally at international level at some stage...

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 08:11

victorsra wrote:
Canalina wrote:But "cartel" suggests that they are making an alliance to defend themselves from the T2 and T3 nations and I hardly agree with this thesis


You can argue there is a difference between 6N and Sanzaar and probably we should see them as different blocs. But inside 6N maybe only France is not realy alligned. The other 5 act as a cartel. The same old Home Nations cartel that Italy joined. You can also argue Italy helped in the Continental Shield, but almost all the time it is alligned with the Home Nations - and due to its own vulnerability. We can also see some willingness in Wales or England to be more open, but it is clearly not a dominant thought. After all, cartel partners are never homogenous. But share most of the wishes.

So, Cartel Rugby is a pretty close concept - and a provocative one, which is the most important thing.

To share the wishes, the targets, is an alliance. A "cartel", as the term is commonly intended, is to share the targets and to defend them in a unfair way, taking unjust advantage by the cooperation between the cartel members. I can't see this in rugby. You may say the 6N sometime act as a closed club (like when they play by their own in the U18 Festival) and that it's shortminded, but I don't remember them damaging the rest of the nations. If not indirectly, by not co-operating with them

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 08:39

A few things to says. Pichot clearly had an eye towards helping develop the T2 nations. Yes, his main focus was on North and South America, but that really shouldn't be all that surprising. Why he was left out of knowing about the RWC draw is frankly beyond me. It was either incompetence or deliberate. There's no other alternative. With regards to voting at WR, I do agree that the T1 nations dominance is something that needs to be broken, but I don't like the voting structure of FIFA either, one nation, one vote. That has done nothing but lead to corruption. The only fair solution in my mind is a merit based one, where a unions international rankings plays a part in determining the number of places given over a 4 year period.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 08:40

Scoob wrote:The next couple of years is going to be very interesting.
SANZAAR have real issues with finding cash. Australia rugby is buried in the biggest hole that not even the biggest excavator on the planet could bring them to the surface of this mess.
Steve Tew has resigned at the time when even he knows that finding money to fund NZRFU interests are down the sink.
Sth Africa dont know what competition they want to get involved in,with fingers in the pie on both sides of hemisphere.

The new Japanese rugby competition and Major league rugby are more issues that SANZAAR got to deal with,in way of leaking players overseas.
We got the 6 nations teams,is it there job to grow the game? No. Could they do more to help? Yes. Will they do more? No. Does the six nations hold all the financial muscle? Yes
So what can be done? Well look at World rugby chiefs? Pichot has tried to shake things up,which came crashing down to earth. Beaumont has tiptoed around everything suggesting dialogue is the answer. Which is quite ironic when every dictator in the world suggests dialogue and endless meetings when uprisings try to happen. And yes from a political to a sporting front,i think an uprising will occur,probably lead by NZL against World rugby and 6 nations teams. Its how they go about it that will determine how successful they are.


The only way things change, especially in Europe, is someone needs to bankroll a new competition in Europe. The only way the 6N start opening up is if there is a viable competitor.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 08:54

thatrugbyguy wrote:A few things to says. Pichot clearly had an eye towards helping develop the T2 nations. Yes, his main focus was on North and South America, but that really shouldn't be all that surprising. Why he was left out of knowing about the RWC draw is frankly beyond me. It was either incompetence or deliberate. There's no other alternative. With regards to voting at WR, I do agree that the T1 nations dominance is something that needs to be broken, but I don't like the voting structure of FIFA either, one nation, one vote. That has done nothing but lead to corruption. The only fair solution in my mind is a merit based one, where a unions international rankings plays a part in determining the number of places given over a 4 year period.

Is not it more or less the current World Rugby system?

WR Council (every person one vote, if I'm not wrong)

Chairman
Bill Beaumont

Vice-Chairman with the sneakers
Agustín Pichot

Argentina
Sol Iglesias
Marcelo Rodriguez

Australia
Raelene Castle
Cameron Clyne
Brett Robinson

Canada
Pat Parfrey

England
Deborah Griffin
Bill Sweeney
Jonathan Webb

Fiji
Francis Kean

France
Brigitte Jugla
Bernard Laporte
Serge Simon

Georgia
George Nijaradze

Ireland
Susan Carty
John O’Driscoll
Philip Orr

Italy
Alfredo Gavazzi
Nino Saccà
Susanna Vecchi

Japan
Kensuke Iwabuchi
Naoko Saiki

New Zealand
Deb Robinson
Mark Robinson
To be appointed

Romania
Alin Petrache

Samoa
Tuilaepa S. L. Malielegaoi

Scotland
Mark Dodson
John Jeffrey
Lesley Thomson

South Africa
Mark Alexander
Vanessa Doble
Jurie Roux

USA
Bob Latham

Wales
Robert Butcher
Gareth Davies
Julie Paterson

Asia Rugby
Terence Khoo
Ada Milby

Oceania Rugby
Richard Sapias
Cathy Wong

Rugby Africa
Khaled Babbou
Rolande Boro

Rugby Americas North
Dennis Dwyer
Cristina Flores

Rugby Europe
Octavian Morariu
Veronika Muehlhofer

Sudamerica Rugby
Claudia Betancur
Sebastian Piñeyrua

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 09:16

I think if your a nation that makes the quarterfinals at Rugby World Cup you should be given more votes than a nation who doesn't over a 4 year period.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 01 Feb 2020, 10:02

The world rugby council also gives additional votes based on union turnover and participation in the 6 nation's and Rugby championship. That needs to be abolished. If T1 all had 2 votes each, at least it would be equal between T1 and the rest of the world.

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