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Japan Rugby

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 07:55

Edgar wrote:I doubt that will happen and wouldn't want to see SANZAAR become a World League-minus-Europe anyway. That's a recipe for shrinking the game at the top level. & Japan are still going to get smashed by the All Blacks.


Actually that's a recipe of growing the game worldwide and overall expanding the game on the top level. EVERY, SINGLE, SUCCESSFUL SPORT does it that way. It is not that difficult as well. Look at soccer: realize that once, they decided to give a f*** what the Brits thought in the 1920ies and introduced the World Cup, they always tried to expand and be open and created their success exactly because of this.

By the way, the arguments of the FA before the soccer world cup where the same we always hear in rugby. Nobody has beaten us, and the one time, we were unlucky,we are the best anyway, we don't need a world cup, the others are not good enough, they should get better first. Cowards they were in soccer, cowards they still are in rugby. Don't be one now. Open championships always lead to a bigger game at the top level in the long run. Always. And once every 4 years is not enough, if there is an Apartheid system installed in the other years.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Tue, 09 Jul 2019, 07:18, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby Edgar » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 09:06

Soccer evolved firstly along regional lines, and then arranged inter-regional championships among the strongest teams. The Rugby Championship is an example of where rugby has arranged inter-regional championship without developing the game along regional lines first. That's why all of its regions bar Europe only have one or two strong teams. Those one or two teams are playing each other instead of engaging their regional rivals. Why? Because they regard themselves as too strong.So that's where the cowardice and apartheid you speak of really comes into it; not with opposition to a select few teams from around the world playing in an elitists' competition - especially when some of them are anything but elite on the playing field. Of course, it's all about the money. You can't fault the individual unions for doing what is in their own best interests financially. But that's where World Rugby needs to evolve as an organization and start to make decisions based on what is best for the international game, not the respective unions holding the balance of the power on the board - as is currently the case. If England had only played Germany, Italy and Spain at soccer, then made tours to Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay every single year, the international game would never have got off the ground. First you develop the regional competitions, then you look at inter-regional championships.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 09:40

Edgar wrote:Soccer evolved firstly along regional lines, and then arranged inter-regional championships among the strongest teams. The Rugby Championship is an example of where rugby has arranged inter-regional championship without developing the game along regional lines first.
That's why all of its regions bar Europe only have one or two strong teams. Those one or two teams are playing each other instead of engaging their regional rivals. Why? Because they regard themselves as too strong.So that's where the cowardice and apartheid you speak of really comes into it; not with opposition to a select few teams from around the world playing in an elitists' competition - especially when some of them are anything but elite on the playing field.


On point analysis.

Edgar wrote:Of course, it's all about the money. You can't fault the individual unions for doing what is in their own best interests financially. But that's where World Rugby needs to evolve as an organization and start to make decisions based on what is best for the international game, not the respective unions holding the balance of the power on the board - as is currently the case.


Here I think about Douglas Adams and his brilliant episode about the kakapo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkf6EZdjEc
We have always ignored everyone around, so we continue to do so.

Edgar wrote:If England had only played Germany, Italy and Spain at soccer, then made tours to Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay every single year, the international game would never have got off the ground. First you develop the regional competitions, then you look at inter-regional championships.


Actually that's exactly what England did in soccer. Their first test match in soccer against Germany was as late as 1930 (!), against Italy in 1933, against Spain in 1929. The first World Cup was played in 1930 - off course without England, who had one or two excuses at hand as always, why this wasn't a good thing until 1950. They followed the exact same stupid, arrogant and cowardice methods done in rugby until now. The only difference is, that the guys in charge of the FIFA and later UEFA always made sure, that those idiots never got to decide anything. Soccer took off, because all British countries were friendly welcomed, but apart from that ignored by everyone organizing the international game.

So from where we stand now, we have to state, that we need a Euro to bloody develop further, but we need at least one big country able to produce a vibe outside of traditional supporters. And the only chance for that is the USA or maybe to get back on topic Japan. And if the RC (which from a financial perspective not viable long-term) becomes a second world-wide competition, so be it.

One thing to show what a big chance rugby has wasted in the 1990ies shows this small statistics.
England played against Japan in soccer for the first time in 1995. Germany played Japan for the first time in 2004 (!).
Soccer wasn't that global and interconnected as rugby. But rugby messed up getting that global thing to their own regions. This must be done now.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby Edgar » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 10:04

Actually that's exactly what England did in soccer. Their first test match in soccer against Germany was as late as 1930 (!), against Italy in 1933, against Spain in 1929


The statement contradicts itself. England was playing its closest neighbors in soccer for 40 years before it began to engage the powerhouses on the continent on a regular basis. & the fact it didn't play Japan until 1995 further supports my argument. Develop the regional competitions first, and then looked at your inter-regional championships. Rugby outside of Europe is trying to do the opposite.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 12:43

Edgar wrote:
Actually that's exactly what England did in soccer. Their first test match in soccer against Germany was as late as 1930 (!), against Italy in 1933, against Spain in 1929


The statement contradicts itself. England was playing its closest neighbors in soccer for 40 years before it began to engage the powerhouses on the continent on a regular basis. & the fact it didn't play Japan until 1995 further supports my argument. Develop the regional competitions first, and then looked at your inter-regional championships. Rugby outside of Europe is trying to do the opposite.


It doesn't, as the first soccer world cup was held in 1930 in Uruguay. So at a time, where the rest of Europe already had intercontinental games every 4 years, British teams played mostly within their own country and refused to change that. Technically they did not play their closest neighbours, as i.e. Amsterdam is way closer to London than Edinburgh and Dublin.

To their defense, they also had a thing called English Amateur national team, who represented GB at the Olympic games in 1912. This England Amateurs team, actually did play the other teams from the continent, but another parallel to the still existing rugby structure didn't award full caps for it.
Basically the whole continent was already playing each other with full internationals, when England still refused to take part in something like a World Cup.

Apart from that one could also say, that soccer maybe didn't fully develop on regional lines, as the World Cup was actually introduced in 1930 and the Euro in 1960. (Germany and England arrogantly boycotted it in 1960 and Germany still in 1964, the German coach even calling it "a waste of time").

You have a point, that you can make a case in another direction as well, but to me this all leads in one direction. There is resistance to have new unknown competitions, but they always lead to making the game stronger in the long term.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 18:46

Yes, England never played a major role in developing national teams soccer around the globe. FIFA was born in 1904 as a Continental Europe iniciative (just like FIRA in the 1930s), founded by Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. The British entered and left FIFA a couple of times from 1905 to the 1920s without really compromising with it, only returning after the WWII. If you want key chairmen of that early years of FIFA you have the Dutch banker Carl Hirschmann, that saved FIFA from extinction, or the French Jules Rimet, that created the WC.

Rugby could have had a different history if FIRA had followed FIFA's steps and really controled the game instead of the British board. The Home Nations had their own soccer board, the International Football Board, that was pretty much the same thing that the International Rugby Board, a organization focused on the laws of the game, not in its development around the world (and that's IFB's job now indeed). Remember SA, NZ and Australia only became IRB's members after WWII (before that only the Home Nations were members) and France became a full member bizarely only in the 1970s.

The fact is: IRB was only transformed in a proper international federation in the 1980s. Before that rugby had no leadership for its global development. Soccer had it since Early 20th century....
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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby Edgar » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 20:40

There are a lot of factors involved. The nature of administration, yes, also the simplicity of soccer, the classism of rugby union, the slowness of boats, and so forth. But the only point being made is that, for whatever reasons, soccer developed its regional competitions before it created its inter-continental tournaments, whereas rugby outside Europe is trying to create inter-continental tournaments before it has fully developed its regional competitions. Again, that's why all the continents bar Europe still only have one or two decent rugby teams six months out from the 2020s.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 21:01

That's a pretty interesting conversation. Well, about soccer continental competition, more or less. It was South America the first continent to kick off its own competition. The South American Championship (an affair between Argentina, Uruguay, Chile and Brazil) kicked off in 1916 (this is now the Copa America, which has a very complicated history). Europe only did not have a national teams continental competition until 1960. Why? Apart from 1930 WC, the 1920-1924-1928 Olympic and 1934-1938 WCs were in Europe and filled with European teams. Their need of a continental competition wasn't that big. And soccer was indeed a Europe-South America big rivalry, without a clear hegemony from either side. Asia and Africa only received more space in the WC in 1970...

What I mean is that the process of turning FIFA WC a global competition and the process of growing continental tournaments wasn't that simple in soccer too. But probably the fact that South America was both self-sustainable and a rival to Europe since the 1920s created a better balance. Both continents could both focus on local soccer and play a strong intercontinental competition (that alternated venues between Americas and Europe until the 2000s). Which is different from rugby where Oceania and South Africa valued more the need of intercontinental (and not regional) matches (either because of isolation and because of the British Empire networks). British Empire networks in the other hand played no influence in soccer since FIFA's creation, while Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay had their own strong regional environment.

Once there was such scenario and a well settled WC and decolonization made Africa and Asia able to focus on the international arena, the environment for them was already there.
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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby Edgar » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 21:07

& no coincidence either that of all the regional associations outside of Europe, South America is the one that appears to be developing its own rugby competitions most effectively - with Argentina playing an integral role.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 21:16

Argentina's early development in soccer was key in the creation of the South American Championship (Copa America). Uruguay's success in the 1924 and 1928 Olympics too, paving the way for the 1930 WC. Brazil grew a bit later than Argentina and Uruguay but the 1919 South American title made a proper revolution in the popularity of soccer in Brazil, allowing it to thrive in the 1930s, making South America a really strong soccer region. Of course Chile and Paraguay helped a lot too, because both developed early too inside such rich context. Important to note too that Argentina, Uruguay, Chile and Brazil made their soccer leagues professional between late 20s and early 30s, which means they were not left behind Europe for that matter.

In rugby South America has its continental tournament since 1951. It is not coincidence that Argentina understood the importance of having it.
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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 05 Jul 2019, 07:09

victorsra wrote:Argentina's early development in soccer was key in the creation of the South American Championship (Copa America). Uruguay's success in the 1924 and 1928 Olympics too, paving the way for the 1930 WC. Brazil grew a bit later than Argentina and Uruguay but the 1919 South American title made a proper revolution in the popularity of soccer in Brazil, allowing it to thrive in the 1930s, making South America a really strong soccer region. Of course Chile and Paraguay helped a lot too, because both developed early too inside such rich context. Important to note too that Argentina, Uruguay, Chile and Brazil made their soccer leagues professional between late 20s and early 30s, which means they were not left behind Europe for that matter.

In rugby South America has its continental tournament since 1951. It is not coincidence that Argentina understood the importance of having it.


Also a really interesting contribution to this discussion. So it is safe to say, that rugby struggled because a) the nations outside of GB in Europe didn't really take over like in soccer b) the other rugby hotbeds are too isolated with SA and Argentina relatively alone on their continents and Oceania being Oceania (we can say that they did establish a rugby region with Fiji, Tonga and Samoa, but failed to create a long-lasting serious regional competition.

So the next question could be: why did Argentina's effort to establish a regional competition fail. I think this goes back to a) and the fatal ruling of 1895 to ban player payment.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 07 Jul 2019, 12:39

Edgar wrote:
Actually that's exactly what England did in soccer. Their first test match in soccer against Germany was as late as 1930 (!), against Italy in 1933, against Spain in 1929


The statement contradicts itself. England was playing its closest neighbors in soccer for 40 years before it began to engage the powerhouses on the continent on a regular basis. & the fact it didn't play Japan until 1995 further supports my argument. Develop the regional competitions first, and then looked at your inter-regional championships. Rugby outside of Europe is trying to do the opposite.


The problem is the ARFU and the unions inside it have done a very poor job developing and enhancing rugby in the region in the last decade. The Asian Championships also has quite a long history, starting in 1968, so should've developed into something half-decent by now but actually the opposite is the case. Infact it can be argued that Asian rugby has gone nowhere in the last decade.

The JRFU and leading Japanese clubs have done very little reaching out (unlike the Argentinians in South America), and the other unions (the worst example is the KRFU) have remained conservative, and unambitious. Some on here may lambast the HKRFU for the amount of non-Asian players it has in their team but at least they have set up a full time high performance centre and contracts and are looking to have a pro team. They seem to be attempting to lift their game far more than the other lethargic Asian unions.

In a way it's very ironic that the next RWC is being held in arguably the worst-performing confederation. WR loves to spin "Legacy" around RWCs but I strongly suspect there will be little to actually boast of both in Japan and in Asia in general post RWC. It's honestly time WR took a much more "hands on" approach to the Asia Confederation and started kicking a few butts (read: You either start making some changes and showing some real development initiative in the rugby in your union, both in grass roots and high performance, or you can say goodbye to your WR money this year). And not for the first time I will say this: awarding the RWC19 hosting to Japan should've come with the T&C that the JRFU and leading teams enter into concrete playing interaction with their strongest neighbours. No deal on that, no RWC hosting.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 07 Jul 2019, 12:45

TheStroBro wrote:So basically all of the progress Japan has made will crumble? That's what it sounds like. If you don't have a professional league then there will be a significant step back.


As DotJP said most of the players in most teams, apart from the foreign imports and Japan NT members do a normal day's work so this league has never been a fully-professional CLUB league. It is a CORPORATE league, different to the usual CLUB-based leagues in the rest of the world. It is interesting that the TL was instigated by the corporate teams themselves, not by the JRFU, though of course the same is true of the MLR. I doubt anyone in the amateur, conservative JRFU even thought about a national league, that's how pathetic the JRFU was, and still is.

I actually think that if the JRFU can't make the hard decision to change to a club-based pro league in the next few years, I predict the US and Canada with MLR will go past them and in 10-15 years start attracting the top foreign talent that is currently heading to Japan. I consider that with the MLR, if it can keep growing organically, it's long-term prospects are better than the TL.

That's one area where NAM and MLR rugby has a leg up on Japanese rugby. It doesn't have powerful corporate teams with their own vested interests that are not necessarily the same or aligned to the greater good of rugby in the country and its development. In Japanese basketball, the rivalry between the corporate team aligned-JBA and the new club-based b-j league ended up in a Japanese basketball civil war which saw the IBF get involved and suspending the JBA from international play and the full council being sacked when they didn't action the negotiated truce with the rival b-j league organisation that had been brokered by the IBF. Just be thankful that the MLR didn't have to go through that in getting established!

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 07 Jul 2019, 13:23

RugbyLiebe wrote:
DotJP wrote:But clubs are already reinforcing players from overseas.

DotJP wrote:3, The season will be from January to May.→The season will be for 9 months in the future.
6, The new format will be started from 2022.

DotJP wrote:*He said he aims for introducing a professional league system in the future.


I would bet money, that in 5-10 years SANZAAR will deeply regret that they held the Sunwolves at ransom until they decided to denie the "offer" and leave Super Rugby.


Here you are going off the deep end again without the facts when it comes to the Sunwolves. If you'd taken the time to read DotJP's comment above your own you would've noticed that he wrote the JRFU admitted that some members of its own executive engaged actively against the team (Veteran Japanese Rugby news journalist Rich Freeman did a piece on this). The team never had full support from the TL corporates (which before the Sunwolves even started I said would be a key challenge for the team to be successful) hence you saw such a different mix of players every season, with squad announcements made late and only with a partial squad etc. The team never had it's own dedicated practice park etc.

Against these internal issues it was already rumoured in the NZ media before last season that the NZRFU was losing patience that the team would be viable in the long-term and had basically issued the JRFU with an ultimatum to sort its crap out or risk the NZRFU pulling its support for having the team in the competition. SARFU, unlike the ARFU and NZRFU was never supportive of having the Sunwolves in the competition, due to the travel distances for its teams, and when they found out the JRFU exec who was actively undermining the Sunwolves from within, also put his 2023RWC hosting vote to France rather than RSA, there was no way SARFU was going to support the continued existence of the Sunwolves in SR. So as you can see, the SW were hobbled both from within, as well as from outside. As I surmised before they even started playing, sorting out the internal political factors in Japanese rugby would be the crux of whether the team was a long-term reality or not. I'm not surprised this failed (sadly), and I suspect while many Japanese rugby fans will be disappointed, there are certain factions within the establishment that will be smiling, certainly the TL corporates will not be unhappy, as they surely saw SR as a challenge to the legitimacy and viability of the TL.

If another Japanese SR team is to exist in the future it must be a non-negotiable that it has a stable foundation, and that the union unequivocally supports it over other vested interests within Japanese rugby. The sad fact is this team was half-baked. That is not a recipe (excuse the pun!) for success.

What did the SW show that will have irked those members of the JRFU against it and also the corporate TL teams? They showed that unlike the TL with its limited general public appeal that has seen attendance flat after one year season of increase in the aftermath of the 2015RWC, wher most Japanese have no affiliation to most of the TL teams, and couldn't actually give two hoots about them, the SW showed a community-based club of the sort in the rest of the world found general appeal, and gained a fair few new fans, that would have never gone to a TL game. That's also just about the saddest thing about the team's demise. But I suspect those members of the JRFU and their corporate allies couldn't give a jot.

The general popularity of the SW also backs up something I've said a million times on this forum and other places. Until the TL switches to a normal club-based league that the general community and public can buy into, rugby in Japan will not fulfill its potential. We just have to wait about 100 years before a group of individuals with enough starch and vision of what needs to be done for the good of Japanese rugby, has the balls to tell the corporates that things are going to change. Maybe if the JRFU co-opted some forward-looking members from the JFA who had no problems giving the corporates the message their time in control was up when football's J-League went fully pro in 1993 would help!

And for those not familiar with the Japanese rugby or sports landscape,I'll say this again. The corporates don't get involved in sports because they care about the sports (obviously the athletes and coaches care but). In Japan (and South Korea) the corporates have got involved in sports for one reason. Simply as a way to enhance the visibility of their name. That's all.

What made me most angry about the demise of the SW? Eddie Jones having a go at SANZAAR after the news broke, when Eddie himself supposedly being set to be the inaugural SW Director of rugby if not HC, jumped ship to take the England job. He was also well aware of all the internal issues in the JRFU and infact I'm pretty sure that was the reason for him leaving the Japan HP set up along with the England offer. Then he has the nerve to go and take a pot shot at SANZAAR! What a bloody hypocrite!

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 07 Jul 2019, 13:49

Working Class Rugger wrote:
4N wrote:Sunwolves apparently on the chopping block.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super ... uper-rugby


If they are cut I'd like to see them move across to GRR. Not that I think they should be cut. They've shown good form so far this season. They've been hamstrung by having to play 'home' games away from home to suit others and from constant rotation of talent. If seem to have found a solid core now and are producing some really good Rugby. I'm not a betting man but I've put a sneaky $50 on them to beat the Blues. If they want to go to the straight round robin then fine but keep the Sunwolves involved.


Unlikely to happen for the internal issues that I have written about will still be just as relevant (unless Forrest gives the JRFU a crap load of cash that will give the JRFU the financial independence to contract players and thumb their nose at the corporates). Even then players would still be under heavy pressure from the corporates and also the traditional Japanese sense of loyalty (read "Obligation") to stick with their corporate club. And as I've already written, the corporates will probably still have their share of lap-dogs in the JRFU so it's far from 100% like it was in SR that the team would have complete support from within the national body.

It's more likely that if there is japanese representation in the GRR then it will be one or two of the TL teams. Unlike the SW, they already have their players in place ;)

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 07 Jul 2019, 13:58

DotJP wrote:
DotJP wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
DotJP wrote:(Draft) Main contents of reorganizing of Japanese Top League(=Top League Next)

1, Three division system* and one division has eight teams.
2, Not professional league.
3, The season will be from January to May.
4, Club teams should be more community-based.
5, The new top league will be separated from JRFU as a corporation.
6, The new format will be started from 2022( or 2021?).
7, JRFU hopes to decide them finally in August.

*Now Top League has 16 teams and Top Challenge League has 8 teams as division 2.


Sorry, are you saying that they are planning on making it entirely amateur? Seems odd. Mainly because that would seem like a regression.

Apart from that. Everything else seems fair enough.


It is a debatable point in Japan too, and I needed to check the issue.
The answer is No. They can't make the new professional league, even though they know it is necessary for Japan. As the present Japanese circumstances,

ⅰ, about 70% (Japanese?) players are amateur.
ⅱ, the rates of professional players in teams are largely different in the league.
ⅲ, players who make professional contracts are decreasing these days.

So, they can't make it. They would maintain the current league system in this point. And they said it depends on club teams whether players are professional or not. In addition to them, it is said by some media that Sunwolves is a role model for top league teams in order to change into professional leagues, but they are going to lose that guideline because of axing Sunwolves.

Apart from this issue and talking about Sunwolves, the other day, JRFU admitted some executives had opposed challenging Super Rugby. So many Japanese fans are disappointed in it and their attitude which is disunited inside but dogmatic outside, and habitus of keeping things secret. JRFU will change executives in June, but we don't know how they change.

In addition.

For a long time, JRFU has been occupied by conservatives, and their basic policy was amateurism and focusing on domestic competitions. But JRFU held an important governing board at 29, June. And many executives were changed, and now reformists occupy it(Link: https://www.rugby-japan.jp/news/2019/06/29/49999). It was a happy day for reformists of Japan rugby( I stand for this position).

The new chairman and vice chairman claimed they wanted to introduce professional systems into Top League. Some people says the draft is not functioning yet, and the new chairman said nothing was decided. But clubs are already reinforcing players from overseas. So I think it is still alive. So, I correct changed points of the draft this time. But I think this changed draft may be going to be changed too.

2, Not professional league.→professional league in the future*.
3, The season will be from January to May.→The season will be for 9 months in the future.
6, The new format will be started from 2022.

And they talked about international matches, and they hope to increase international matches including club levels.

These are not all, but I haven't completely grasped other informations yet.

*He said he aims for introducing a professional league system in the future.


I wish I could share your confidence about the new executive but I don't. It's still made up by people that went to the right universities. Even guys like Iwabuchi, and Kiyomiya still came up through the antiquated japanese uni rugby system and probably still have contacts and allegiances to those universities which with the JRFU seems to mean more than doing what's right for the good of the future of Japanese rugby. Even though he is pretty young, Iwabuchi probably still got in because he went to Cambridge (i.e his connections), more than anything he has done for Japanese rugby. Infact I am troubled by the fact that this guy presided over a japan 7s team that just got relegated from the WSS and has now been rewarded with a seat on the JRFU executive! :shock: Despite being a Yamaha supporter i have never been a huge fan of Kiyomiya, especially after his rascist outburst against Eddie Jones before the RWC2015. Again I am not that confident he is the kind of guy who will endeavour to make real change in Japanese rugby. I hope I am proven wrong.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 07:50

YamahaKiwi wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
DotJP wrote:But clubs are already reinforcing players from overseas.

DotJP wrote:3, The season will be from January to May.→The season will be for 9 months in the future.
6, The new format will be started from 2022.

DotJP wrote:*He said he aims for introducing a professional league system in the future.


I would bet money, that in 5-10 years SANZAAR will deeply regret that they held the Sunwolves at ransom until they decided to denie the "offer" and leave Super Rugby.


Here you are going off the deep end again without the facts when it comes to the Sunwolves. If you'd taken the time to read DotJP's comment above your own you would've noticed that he wrote the JRFU admitted that some members of its own executive engaged actively against the team (Veteran Japanese Rugby news journalist Rich Freeman did a piece on this). The team never had full support from the TL corporates (which before the Sunwolves even started I said would be a key challenge for the team to be successful) hence you saw such a different mix of players every season, with squad announcements made late and only with a partial squad etc. The team never had it's own dedicated practice park etc.

Against these internal issues it was already rumoured in the NZ media before last season that the NZRFU was losing patience that the team would be viable in the long-term and had basically issued the JRFU with an ultimatum to sort its crap out or risk the NZRFU pulling its support for having the team in the competition. SARFU, unlike the ARFU and NZRFU was never supportive of having the Sunwolves in the competition, due to the travel distances for its teams, and when they found out the JRFU exec who was actively undermining the Sunwolves from within, also put his 2023RWC hosting vote to France rather than RSA, there was no way SARFU was going to support the continued existence of the Sunwolves in SR. So as you can see, the SW were hobbled both from within, as well as from outside. As I surmised before they even started playing, sorting out the internal political factors in Japanese rugby would be the crux of whether the team was a long-term reality or not. I'm not surprised this failed (sadly), and I suspect while many Japanese rugby fans will be disappointed, there are certain factions within the establishment that will be smiling, certainly the TL corporates will not be unhappy, as they surely saw SR as a challenge to the legitimacy and viability of the TL.

If another Japanese SR team is to exist in the future it must be a non-negotiable that it has a stable foundation, and that the union unequivocally supports it over other vested interests within Japanese rugby. The sad fact is this team was half-baked. That is not a recipe (excuse the pun!) for success.

What did the SW show that will have irked those members of the JRFU against it and also the corporate TL teams? They showed that unlike the TL with its limited general public appeal that has seen attendance flat after one year season of increase in the aftermath of the 2015RWC, wher most Japanese have no affiliation to most of the TL teams, and couldn't actually give two hoots about them, the SW showed a community-based club of the sort in the rest of the world found general appeal, and gained a fair few new fans, that would have never gone to a TL game. That's also just about the saddest thing about the team's demise. But I suspect those members of the JRFU and their corporate allies couldn't give a jot.

The general popularity of the SW also backs up something I've said a million times on this forum and other places. Until the TL switches to a normal club-based league that the general community and public can buy into, rugby in Japan will not fulfill its potential. We just have to wait about 100 years before a group of individuals with enough starch and vision of what needs to be done for the good of Japanese rugby, has the balls to tell the corporates that things are going to change. Maybe if the JRFU co-opted some forward-looking members from the JFA who had no problems giving the corporates the message their time in control was up when football's J-League went fully pro in 1993 would help!

And for those not familiar with the Japanese rugby or sports landscape,I'll say this again. The corporates don't get involved in sports because they care about the sports (obviously the athletes and coaches care but). In Japan (and South Korea) the corporates have got involved in sports for one reason. Simply as a way to enhance the visibility of their name. That's all.

What made me most angry about the demise of the SW? Eddie Jones having a go at SANZAAR after the news broke, when Eddie himself supposedly being set to be the inaugural SW Director of rugby if not HC, jumped ship to take the England job. He was also well aware of all the internal issues in the JRFU and infact I'm pretty sure that was the reason for him leaving the Japan HP set up along with the England offer. Then he has the nerve to go and take a pot shot at SANZAAR! What a bloody hypocrite!


I am fully aware of all the internal problems Japanese rugby is facing, especially because of your posts. Still I come to the conclusion, that if I was SANZAAR I would have not upheld that participation fee of 9 (?) Million USD (?) on them (please correct me about the sum). Japan was a chance for massive commercial growth in the long run. Something they realistically don't have in NZ, Oz and SA. I mean where exactly should they create additional funds in those countries, when they most probably maxed the incomes out? It is somehow typicial for global rugby, that if you there is some opposition in a Union, rugby admins don't do everything to strengthen the more fitting opinion within a respective Union, but bug out. i.e FIFA would never do that, as they think mid-to-long-term and not short-term like Rugby. Apart from that, you are probably right that the corporations are a big problem in internal Japanese growth, but I am not sure if it is to the degree you think they are.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby DotJP » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 13:22

YamahaKiwi wrote:
DotJP wrote:
DotJP wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
DotJP wrote:(Draft) Main contents of reorganizing of Japanese Top League(=Top League Next)

1, Three division system* and one division has eight teams.
2, Not professional league.
3, The season will be from January to May.
4, Club teams should be more community-based.
5, The new top league will be separated from JRFU as a corporation.
6, The new format will be started from 2022( or 2021?).
7, JRFU hopes to decide them finally in August.

*Now Top League has 16 teams and Top Challenge League has 8 teams as division 2.


Sorry, are you saying that they are planning on making it entirely amateur? Seems odd. Mainly because that would seem like a regression.

Apart from that. Everything else seems fair enough.


It is a debatable point in Japan too, and I needed to check the issue.
The answer is No. They can't make the new professional league, even though they know it is necessary for Japan. As the present Japanese circumstances,

ⅰ, about 70% (Japanese?) players are amateur.
ⅱ, the rates of professional players in teams are largely different in the league.
ⅲ, players who make professional contracts are decreasing these days.

So, they can't make it. They would maintain the current league system in this point. And they said it depends on club teams whether players are professional or not. In addition to them, it is said by some media that Sunwolves is a role model for top league teams in order to change into professional leagues, but they are going to lose that guideline because of axing Sunwolves.

Apart from this issue and talking about Sunwolves, the other day, JRFU admitted some executives had opposed challenging Super Rugby. So many Japanese fans are disappointed in it and their attitude which is disunited inside but dogmatic outside, and habitus of keeping things secret. JRFU will change executives in June, but we don't know how they change.

In addition.

For a long time, JRFU has been occupied by conservatives, and their basic policy was amateurism and focusing on domestic competitions. But JRFU held an important governing board at 29, June. And many executives were changed, and now reformists occupy it(Link: https://www.rugby-japan.jp/news/2019/06/29/49999). It was a happy day for reformists of Japan rugby( I stand for this position).

The new chairman and vice chairman claimed they wanted to introduce professional systems into Top League. Some people says the draft is not functioning yet, and the new chairman said nothing was decided. But clubs are already reinforcing players from overseas. So I think it is still alive. So, I correct changed points of the draft this time. But I think this changed draft may be going to be changed too.

2, Not professional league.→professional league in the future*.
3, The season will be from January to May.→The season will be for 9 months in the future.
6, The new format will be started from 2022.

And they talked about international matches, and they hope to increase international matches including club levels.

These are not all, but I haven't completely grasped other informations yet.

*He said he aims for introducing a professional league system in the future.


I wish I could share your confidence about the new executive but I don't. It's still made up by people that went to the right universities. Even guys like Iwabuchi, and Kiyomiya still came up through the antiquated japanese uni rugby system and probably still have contacts and allegiances to those universities which with the JRFU seems to mean more than doing what's right for the good of the future of Japanese rugby. Even though he is pretty young, Iwabuchi probably still got in because he went to Cambridge (i.e his connections), more than anything he has done for Japanese rugby. Infact I am troubled by the fact that this guy presided over a japan 7s team that just got relegated from the WSS and has now been rewarded with a seat on the JRFU executive! :shock: Despite being a Yamaha supporter i have never been a huge fan of Kiyomiya, especially after his rascist outburst against Eddie Jones before the RWC2015. Again I am not that confident he is the kind of guy who will endeavour to make real change in Japanese rugby. I hope I am proven wrong.

Talking about professional league, some clubs are opposed to the idea, and they are very influential in Japanese rugby. But JRFU needs to persuade them into joining in the professional league, or to separate clubs into professional and amateur leagues.

And JRFU needs to change the top league's agreement, because this agreement is advantageous to amateurism. For example, article 93 "player's transfer". In summary,

until 2018
impossible in principle
exception:getting approval from the ex-team
punishment:if not, the player can't take part in matches at the new team for a year.

from 2018
impossible in principle
exception:getting approval of negotiation from the ex-team in a fixed period of time
punishment:if not, the player can't take part in half of matches at the new team, and the new team is taken off from 1 to 5 points in the next season.

I think player's transfer should be approved in principle for professional leagues. Like this, JRFU have hard jobs, and it is so difficult to solve.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 08 Jul 2019, 19:50

YamahaKiwi wrote:Against these internal issues it was already rumoured in the NZ media before last season that the NZRFU was losing patience that the team would be viable in the long-term and had basically issued the JRFU with an ultimatum to sort its crap out or risk the NZRFU pulling its support for having the team in the competition. SARFU, unlike the ARFU and NZRFU was never supportive of having the Sunwolves in the competition, due to the travel distances for its teams, and when they found out the JRFU exec who was actively undermining the Sunwolves from within, also put his 2023RWC hosting vote to France rather than RSA, there was no way SARFU was going to support the continued existence of the Sunwolves in SR. So as you can see, the SW were hobbled both from within, as well as from outside.


This is a great example of the cronyism in rugby and SANZAAR in particular. First off the guys are generally unqualified and conflicted anyway, then they are told "Vote for us or we'll fuck you up on something totally unrelated" by their alleged partners!


YamahaKiwi wrote:If another Japanese SR team is to exist in the future it must be a non-negotiable that it has a stable foundation, and that the union unequivocally supports it over other vested interests within Japanese rugby. The sad fact is this team was half-baked. That is not a recipe (excuse the pun!) for success.

What did the SW show that will have irked those members of the JRFU against it and also the corporate TL teams? They showed that unlike the TL with its limited general public appeal that has seen attendance flat after one year season of increase in the aftermath of the 2015RWC, wher most Japanese have no affiliation to most of the TL teams, and couldn't actually give two hoots about them, the SW showed a community-based club of the sort in the rest of the world found general appeal, and gained a fair few new fans, that would have never gone to a TL game. That's also just about the saddest thing about the team's demise. But I suspect those members of the JRFU and their corporate allies couldn't give a jot.

The general popularity of the SW also backs up something I've said a million times on this forum and other places. Until the TL switches to a normal club-based league that the general community and public can buy into, rugby in Japan will not fulfill its potential. We just have to wait about 100 years before a group of individuals with enough starch and vision of what needs to be done for the good of Japanese rugby, has the balls to tell the corporates that things are going to change. Maybe if the JRFU co-opted some forward-looking members from the JFA who had no problems giving the corporates the message their time in control was up when football's J-League went fully pro in 1993 would help!

And for those not familiar with the Japanese rugby or sports landscape,I'll say this again. The corporates don't get involved in sports because they care about the sports (obviously the athletes and coaches care but). In Japan (and South Korea) the corporates have got involved in sports for one reason. Simply as a way to enhance the visibility of their name. That's all.


Yep agree and the J-League is a good example of the bottom paragraph too, as I believe the majority of teams are still sponsored by their former corporate owners but now are obviously independently managed.

YamahaKiwi wrote:What made me most angry about the demise of the SW? Eddie Jones having a go at SANZAAR after the news broke, when Eddie himself supposedly being set to be the inaugural SW Director of rugby if not HC, jumped ship to take the England job. He was also well aware of all the internal issues in the JRFU and infact I'm pretty sure that was the reason for him leaving the Japan HP set up along with the England offer. Then he has the nerve to go and take a pot shot at SANZAAR! What a bloody hypocrite!


Technically he jumped shit to the Stormers and the RFU poached him from them! :twisted:

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby Canalina » Thu, 18 Jul 2019, 20:16

A JRFU illustration on the occasion of the publication of a series of stamps dedicated to the World Cup

Image

Some other good ones here (scroll down)
https://yubin-yasan.com/2019/07/13/フレーム切手『japan-national-rugby-team』/

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby rugby-veterinarian » Sun, 11 Aug 2019, 12:44

How does a tier 2 nation officially become a tier 1 nation? Surely Japan is right on the teetering of becoming a tier 1 nation especially if they can make it to the knockout stages.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 11 Aug 2019, 18:26

There is no official way because the tier system has been abolished. It’s a completely subjective metric.

Imo a team just needs to start beating a few other Tier 1s each year and get the respect of other Tier 1s. To do that usually requires getting invited to their competitions or making it pretty far in the RWC.

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Re: Japan Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 11 Aug 2019, 20:29

IMO T1s are those 10 nations with 3 seats in WR Council: ENG, WAL, SCO, IRE, FRA, ITA, NZ, SA, AUS, ARG. Japan has 2 seats, while Fiji , Samoa, Canada, USA, Georgia and Romania have 1. With this POV, Japan is neither T1 or T2.

Why WR Council? Because this is how much power each nation has. Real thing,
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