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Alternatives to the Nations Championship

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 15:13

welshdragon2000 wrote:
I see what you're saying now, thanks. I guess we could roll out the 'tier 1.5' title for some of those nations. I feel like the USA is a tier 1.75 if you like in that they don't have the structures of Japan perhaps but they have more than your typical T2 nation. The tier system really is outdated though, it's always going to be used I feel but we can surely classify nations in a better way.


Quite simple: Cartel nations vs. the rest.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 00:53

victorsra wrote: Rugby is a poor sport and T1 Unions have many other problems (starting with French/English wanting players). Those administrators are not willing to take risks. They need quick and safe money. T2 nations don't bring sponsors or audiences enough to persuade them - at least now


So I proposed an 8-team European Championship. The two additional teams could be Georgia and Romania, which aren't big markets.

But what if Germany, Russia or Spain win the promotion? Having any of them play England / France... now that would move the needle.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 02:05

NaBUru38 wrote:
victorsra wrote: Rugby is a poor sport and T1 Unions have many other problems (starting with French/English wanting players). Those administrators are not willing to take risks. They need quick and safe money. T2 nations don't bring sponsors or audiences enough to persuade them - at least now


So I proposed an 8-team European Championship. The two additional teams could be Georgia and Romania, which aren't big markets.

But what if Germany, Russia or Spain win the promotion? Having any of them play England / France... now that would move the needle.


If you used the JWC format you could involve two of the three. Three 4 team pools would feature 2 6Ns teams in each pool.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 02:42

victorsra wrote:
They managed to overcome the obstacles other T2 nations have come across and fought their way to where they are now, and are now on the verge of having the wealthiest domestic league in the world.


Japanese has never been T2. That's the point. Their domestic reality is not alike T2s'. Like Argentina, their problem was only the national team. It is completely different from the rest of the T2s. We need to stop mistaking national teams with the state of the nations. That's why Tiers concept has always been not good enough to show the reality.


I agree that the entire tier structure needs to be done away with but to suggest Japan haven't languished in second class for decades is being a bit silly. In fact there's a very good argument to say they've been even lower on that scale than other nations.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 02:49

NaBUru38 wrote:
But what if Germany, Russia or Spain win the promotion? Having any of them play England / France... now that would move the needle.


I think another option not being considered are mid-week warm up games. We use to have tours where teams would play domestic teams in the lead up to test matches. That happens only so often these days. You'll get the occasional match between a test nation and a Super Rugby or European Club team but it's rare these days. I remember the Wallabies played Spain in a mid-week match (Thursday I think) as their first game on their 2001 European tour.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 12:26

Working Class Rugger wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:
victorsra wrote: Rugby is a poor sport and T1 Unions have many other problems (starting with French/English wanting players). Those administrators are not willing to take risks. They need quick and safe money. T2 nations don't bring sponsors or audiences enough to persuade them - at least now


So I proposed an 8-team European Championship. The two additional teams could be Georgia and Romania, which aren't big markets.

But what if Germany, Russia or Spain win the promotion? Having any of them play England / France... now that would move the needle.


If you used the JWC format you could involve two of the three. Three 4 team pools would feature 2 6Ns teams in each pool.


That would be my preference for a format. At least for the first running. An 8 team tournament does not have enough new teams in it to feel like something different and new.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 13:54

A 12-team ERuropean championship would have a very boring group phase. The 6 Nations would never support it.

Mid-week matches wouldn't move the needle.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 15:39

England Ireland Wales
Scotland France Italy
Georgia Romania Spain
Belgium Russia Portugal

Only one match for each T1 that could be construed as "not interesting", with 4 to go through you'd get a lot of do or die matches like the U-20s. 5 matches, shorter and more fun than a Lions tour. Could easily expand to 16 after an initial run.
Mid-week matches in Europe would probably get better TV figures than weekend. What else is on on a Wednesday night in June? That's certainly football's experience. You wouldn't have the breakfast time games problem you get with Aus/NZ/JPN tournaments because it would always be in Europe.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 16:49

NaBUru38 wrote:A 12-team ERuropean championship would have a very boring group phase. The 6 Nations would never support it.

Mid-week matches wouldn't move the needle.


You'd have more exposure to the 6Ns teams across more T2 nations. How is that a bad or boring thing? It would also provide a fairly clear pathway. You want to play in this tournamenr.? Get promoted to the REC.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby victorsra » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 01:17

European Championship has zero interest for the the T1s. The 6N IS the European championship. They don't need to play the rest for that. And there is no commercial value if tje Home Nations are not full strenght. Ilusion.
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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby MikeN » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 01:51

thatrugbyguy wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:
But what if Germany, Russia or Spain win the promotion? Having any of them play England / France... now that would move the needle.


I think another option not being considered are mid-week warm up games. We use to have tours where teams would play domestic teams in the lead up to test matches. That happens only so often these days. You'll get the occasional match between a test nation and a Super Rugby or European Club team but it's rare these days. I remember the Wallabies played Spain in a mid-week match (Thursday I think) as their first game on their 2001 European tour.

Yup, very keen on that idea. The southern teams could easily play massive midweek games in Barcelona, Lisbon, Bucharest, Moscow, Tbilisi etc. They would surely create a lot of interest.
Likewise the 6 nations could play in Namibia, Uruguay and the Pac Islands more often.
The NZ maoris could tour Europe as well, that recent American tour went well.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 03:20

I wish squidgy would push the T2 cause on his YouTube videos Looking at the comments in Reddit most of the posters seem to hold the same snobby elitist beliefs that older establishment fans hold. Considering most of the posters are probably fairly young it is quite depressing. He could help change some minds.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 04:37

There are reports referencing the supposed invites to join the RC to be submitted to both Japan and Fiji. Wouldn't be too difficult for a 6 team 2nd Div to be set up running home and away over two years with the winner getting a pro/rel game against the bottom placed team in the RC for that year.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby Natal » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 09:38

Working Class Rugger wrote:There are reports referencing the supposed invites to join the RC to be submitted to both Japan and Fiji. Wouldn't be too difficult for a 6 team 2nd Div to be set up running home and away over two years with the winner getting a pro/rel game against the bottom placed team in the RC for that year.


Encouraging developments. Instead of a permanent second division, I would marginally prefer to see the integrity of annual regional competitions maintained (it would be a shame to withdraw USA and Uruguay from the ARC, for example), with the 'second division' of TRC being an annual competition featuring the winners of regional competitions (à la JWRT), perhaps also involving the bottom three (or two if we want to be conservative) from TRC proper.

For example:

1. South Africa
2. New Zealand
3. Japan
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Fiji

Top three play in finals series. Bottom three enter promotion relegation tournament:

A
Australia
Asia-Pacific 1
Americas 1

B
Argentina
Fiji
Africa 1

Group winners and third-place playoff winner qualify for next year's RC.

Fixture congestion and, as Edgar has pointed out, travel times would remain an issue with this.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby Edgar » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 10:07

Natal wrote:
Fixture congestion and, as Edgar has pointed out, travel times would remain an issue with this.


Yes, I believe I was agreeing with IUL's comment that the objective ought to be developing the regional competitions, rather than creating or expanding trans-continental elite championships involving the top teams from everywhere but Europe - in one or two cases on the opposite side of the world to each other.

An expanded Rugby Championship involving Japan and Fiji (single round of games) might not be such a bad thing in the short term, however, especially if the former returns to Asian competition and the latter remains involved in Pacific competition. They will undoubtedly benefit from more exposure to first tier rugby, and that experience will have a roll-on-effect when they face their regional opponents. That's why I'm also a fan of Uruguay playing official tests with Argentina and Namibia taking on the Boks in an annual trophy match as well as returning to African regional competition.

But if this championship were to take Japan and Fiji away from their regional competitions, for example, that could stifle the development of those championships, which would be disastrous for the game in the long term.

I don't see the need for a Rugby Championship 2nd division either. Promotion-relegation isn't going to happen because the most likely candidates, Samoa and Tonga, both have too many financial problems and logistical issues.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 14:37

Some teams may join the Rugby Championship. But what about teams that don't?

An option could be a second division championship. It can be worldwide (an expanded Nations Cup) or regional (like the Pacific Nations Cup).

I don't think that United States or Uruguay need to leave the Americas Rugby Championship to have more international matches. In fact, the Nations Cup is held in the June/July window.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 14:38

Edgar wrote: An expanded Rugby Championship involving Japan and Fiji (single round of games) might not be such a bad thing in the short term.

I don't see the need for a Rugby Championship 2nd division either. Promotion-relegation isn't going to happen because the most likely candidates, Samoa and Tonga, both have too many financial problems and logistical issues.


Don't forget United States and Georgia.

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Re: Alternatives to the Nations Championship

Postby Edgar » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 15:05

My plan involves the 4 regional winners (ARC, Africa, ENC and a hypothetical Asia-Pac Top 6) meeting in an annual Confederations Cup, similar to the Nations Cup, only the teams will have earned their spot. It could double as a promotion-relegation fixture provided the winner met a certain set of criteria, and only if and when a team not also involved in TRC (Argentina, Japan or Fiji) were the winner.

Uruguay moving away from South America would be detrimental to the progress of Brazil, Chile et al, and that's highly unlikely to happen anyway, given it is practically a suburb of Buenos Aires. Of course, the international tournaments and fixtures have helped them too. That was evident in Japan. No reason they couldn't continue with them, notwithstanding the above-mentioned alterations.

I believe the US was considered as a possible addition to TRC during the early stages of the Nations Championship talks, perhaps just after they'd beaten Scotland. But it's been all downhill since then and their performance in Japan suggests they've still got a lot of work to do. Their future lies primarily with the Americas anyway, and I'm sure we'll eventually see them challenge Argentina for regional supremacy.

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