Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

WR Presidential Elections

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 17 May 2020, 17:33

I don't think baseball is less difused than rugby, it is probably much bigger. It is a national passion in two huge countries, Japan and USA, and it is the number one sport in Cuba, Dominican Republic, Venezuela and Puerto Rico. Just to compare populations:

- Cuba (11 million), Dominican Rep (10 million), Venezuela (30 million), Puerto Rico (3,5 million).
- NZ (less than 5 million), Irealnd (6,5 million), Scotland (5,4 million), Wales (3 million)....

It is probably the number 1 team sport in Taiwan (population equals Australia) and competes with soccer in South Korea (bigger than Argentina). And it is the number 2 team sport in Mexico (bigger than France + England). And popular in Canada as well. Plus Panama, Nicaragua, Colombia... and China has a small (allegedly) professional league. We don't even need to put USA and Japan in the maths. Rugby is popular in small countries...

However, it is true baseball fails in Europe and Africa. But, isn't rugby also failing in many regions as well?

And sorry, nobody is trying to be funny with "cartel". We do think it is a cartel. If opinion is annoying, sorry, but the term is a precise one (at least for many people here) and useful for analysis.
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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby sk 88 » Mon, 18 May 2020, 12:53

One of the things that is often overlooked in rugby circles, particularly the UK, is thinking that because the closed-shop nature of it doesn't turn them off it doesn't turn anyone off. In my experience it very much does. People ask a reasonable question, "Why don't we ever play Germany?" for instance, and get a load of nonsense back so just shrug their shoulders and don't worry about it too much. The way to tap into the further areas of the UK & France that we don't already reach is open the game up to fresh faces.

Another thing to consider. Many Francophiles in England love rugby, they do this because large parts of France love rugby and they love French culture. Similarly Germanophiles tend to follow football, because that is the main sport of the culture. Developing the game and interaction with someone like Spain would likely increase the interaction those guys have with rugby too. We are a connected world, tapping into that helps everyone including the already strongest!

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 18 May 2020, 14:16

Also I believe many English fans are kept far from the national team as England always plays home matches at Twickenham. Different from France, that every year plays at least one match outside Paris.
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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 18 May 2020, 14:44

victorsra wrote:Also I believe many English fans are kept far from the national team as England always plays home matches at Twickenham. Different from France, that every year plays at least one match outside Paris.


I could be wrong but I think the reason France plays some games in the south is because most French rugby supporters live in the south. England is quite small (about half the size of Sao Paulo state) and all main roads and railway lines run to London. Most English rugby supporters live in the south. Twickenham is the fourth largest stadium in Europe and it is a sell out for every Six Nations game. Even so, going to Twickenham for a Six Nations game is an experience of a lifetime for most people. I've been to Twickenham 4 times but never for a Six Nations game.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby sk 88 » Mon, 18 May 2020, 16:37

victorsra wrote:Also I believe many English fans are kept far from the national team as England always plays home matches at Twickenham. Different from France, that every year plays at least one match outside Paris.


Indeed. I've been to two England football internationals but no England rugby internationals for that reason, the football team has played two games in Leicester the rugby team hasn't played here since Rory Underwood's testimonial in 1991 or something like that. I've seen South Africa three times, twice in Leicester and once at Twickenham in the RWC semi final, that's the only international I've ever been to at Twickenham.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 18 May 2020, 16:40

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Also I believe many English fans are kept far from the national team as England always plays home matches at Twickenham. Different from France, that every year plays at least one match outside Paris.


I could be wrong but I think the reason France plays some games in the south is because most French rugby supporters live in the south. England is quite small (about half the size of Sao Paulo state) and all main roads and railway lines run to London. Most English rugby supporters live in the south. Twickenham is the fourth largest stadium in Europe and it is a sell out for every Six Nations game. Even so, going to Twickenham for a Six Nations game is an experience of a lifetime for most people. I've been to Twickenham 4 times but never for a Six Nations game.


Les Bleus played in Lille as well, far north with no rugby tradition...

Also, Marseille and Nice are not rugby cities and they played there too (ok, close to Toulon, but still...). France actively try to make rugby national, nobody can say they are not trying to break the South-North split. Even Top 14 played matches in Lille and Nantes (another non traditional city for rugby). IIRC there were top club matches in Rennes and Le Mans as well.
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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 18 May 2020, 16:49

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Also I believe many English fans are kept far from the national team as England always plays home matches at Twickenham. Different from France, that every year plays at least one match outside Paris.


I could be wrong but I think the reason France plays some games in the south is because most French rugby supporters live in the south.


Very valid points. Also the French don't own a stadium, which means that they don't lose money if they play somewhere else. It doesn't help that Twickenham is one of the biggest stadiums in Europe and outsold for every national team game for years.
On the other hand there seems to be a culture of English people going to a sporting event to London every now and then. Even League plays their Challenge Cup final in London for over 70 years.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 18 May 2020, 16:53

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Also I believe many English fans are kept far from the national team as England always plays home matches at Twickenham. Different from France, that every year plays at least one match outside Paris.


I could be wrong but I think the reason France plays some games in the south is because most French rugby supporters live in the south. England is quite small (about half the size of Sao Paulo state) and all main roads and railway lines run to London. Most English rugby supporters live in the south. Twickenham is the fourth largest stadium in Europe and it is a sell out for every Six Nations game. Even so, going to Twickenham for a Six Nations game is an experience of a lifetime for most people. I've been to Twickenham 4 times but never for a Six Nations game.


Les Bleus played in Lille as well, far north with no rugby tradition...

Also, Marseille and Nice are not rugby cities and they played there too (ok, close to Toulon, but still...). France actively try to make rugby national, nobody can say they are not trying to break the South-North split. Even Top 14 played matches in Lille and Nantes (another non traditional city for rugby). IIRC there were top club matches in Rennes and Le Mans as well.


I think it would be great if England played one game a season at Old Trafford. Anywhere else outside of London and you'll be denying supporters the opportunity to watch England play because the number of available tickets would be significantly less. Old Trafford is almost as big as Twickenham.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 18 May 2020, 17:55

Well, England could keep almost all matches in Twickenham, but it would be cleaver to have 1 match every year outside. Would it be waste of money or an investment in the market? I go with the second option. And the same for Wales. They could play 1 match in Swansea a least like once every two years, a minor one at least. When we look at dismal Ospreys crowds it suggest this would be good (specialy with football strong in the city). It would be healthy. Scotland also owns Murrayfield but is trying to play 1 match/year outside Edinburgh (Aberdeen, Kilmarnock...). BTW, why they never play at Hampden Park?

Anyway, how is FFR's contract with Stade de France? They have one?
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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 18 May 2020, 18:04

They've got one until 2025 after Bernard Laporte won FFR elections and killed the Grand Stade project in the outskirts of Paris.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 18 May 2020, 18:07

Armchair Fan wrote:They've got one until 2025 after Bernard Laporte won FFR elections and killed the Grand Stade project in the outskirts of Paris.


Is there a determined number of matches they must host there?
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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 18 May 2020, 18:53

victorsra wrote:Well, England could keep almost all matches in Twickenham, but it would be cleaver to have 1 match every year outside. Would it be waste of money or an investment in the market? I go with the second option. And the same for Wales. They could play 1 match in Swansea a least like once every two years, a minor one at least. When we look at dismal Ospreys crowds it suggest this would be good (specialy with football strong in the city). It would be healthy. Scotland also owns Murrayfield but is trying to play 1 match/year outside Edinburgh (Aberdeen, Kilmarnock...). BTW, why they never play at Hampden Park?

Anyway, how is FFR's contract with Stade de France? They have one?


Swansea to the Millennium Stadium is an hour on the train. Both are in South Wales. They are in the same region. Rugby is still popular in Swansea. It's Ospreys that are not popular because 1. They are a made up team with not much history, 2. They are really bad. Wales can sell out the Millennium Stadium for every game so there is no point in playing a game in Swansea and losing out on most of your ticket revenue.
Much more worthwhile would be to play the occasional game in Wrexham, North Wales. North Wales is really far from South Wales and is quite a neglected region.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 18 May 2020, 19:06

Yes, true....

Let's see now that money will enter the Ospreys what will happen.
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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby vino_93 » Mon, 18 May 2020, 19:12

victorsra wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:They've got one until 2025 after Bernard Laporte won FFR elections and killed the Grand Stade project in the outskirts of Paris.


Is there a determined number of matches they must host there?

36 between 2018 and 2025, including top 14 finals, and not including rwc 2023.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:12

victorsra wrote:Yes, true....

Let's see now that money will enter the Ospreys what will happen.


I'm sure Ospreys will improve. They really hit rock bottom this season. Until recently Ospreys's attendances were not bad if you consider that Swansea football club has always been the number one team of Swansea. What might help the Welsh professional teams would be a British and Irish league.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 19 May 2020, 05:59

victorsra wrote:Well, England could keep almost all matches in Twickenham, but it would be cleaver to have 1 match every year outside. Would it be waste of money or an investment in the market? I go with the second option. And the same for Wales. They could play 1 match in Swansea a least like once every two years, a minor one at least. When we look at dismal Ospreys crowds it suggest this would be good (specialy with football strong in the city). It would be healthy. Scotland also owns Murrayfield but is trying to play 1 match/year outside Edinburgh (Aberdeen, Kilmarnock...). BTW, why they never play at Hampden Park?

Anyway, how is FFR's contract with Stade de France? They have one?


I get it that England gets all the money from Twickenham, but I for the life of me cannot understand why once a year they can't play at Old Trafford or somewhere up north in the country. Even during the World Cup there were maybe a handful of games played up there.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 19 May 2020, 07:14

thatrugbyguy wrote:
victorsra wrote:Well, England could keep almost all matches in Twickenham, but it would be cleaver to have 1 match every year outside. Would it be waste of money or an investment in the market? I go with the second option. And the same for Wales. They could play 1 match in Swansea a least like once every two years, a minor one at least. When we look at dismal Ospreys crowds it suggest this would be good (specialy with football strong in the city). It would be healthy. Scotland also owns Murrayfield but is trying to play 1 match/year outside Edinburgh (Aberdeen, Kilmarnock...). BTW, why they never play at Hampden Park?

Anyway, how is FFR's contract with Stade de France? They have one?


I get it that England gets all the money from Twickenham, but I for the life of me cannot understand why once a year they can't play at Old Trafford or somewhere up north in the country. Even during the World Cup there were maybe a handful of games played up there.


This explains it really well.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... twickenham

But they are specifically talking about the game they played in Newcastle. I am sure a game each year at Old Trafford could be profitable and would generate more interest in the rugby in the north west.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 19 May 2020, 07:32

If only there was a way to bring national team games to cities with smaller stadiums. I mean like playing smaller national teams with just not all your best players and also give some fringe players a chance to earn their cap.
Nah, I can't think of a way. I mean there are no smaller national teams within the Cartel. That can't work. :D

Edit: the first one to mention Saxhounds, Wolfons or any other idea to diminish an opponent and drive spectators away, has to feel the almighty virtual Bavarian Gnackfotzn.
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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby sk 88 » Tue, 19 May 2020, 08:46

RugbyLiebe wrote:If only there was a way to bring national team games to cities with smaller stadiums. I mean like playing smaller national teams with just not all your best players and also give some fringe players a chance to earn their cap.
Nah, I can't think of a way. I mean there are no smaller national teams within the Cartel. That can't work. :D

Edit: the first one to mention Saxhounds, Wolfons or any other idea to diminish an opponent and drive spectators away, has to feel the almighty virtual Bavarian Gnackfotzn.


Exactly the game to do it with is the "Barbarians" game the same week as the Premiership Final. Play USA, Georgia, Fiji, Samoa somewhere like Leicester, Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle etc. Those 6 on a rough rotation with RWC years etc means you get a test once every 8 years, so each one is a massive event for the local area.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 22 May 2020, 00:05

In this long interview Agustín Pichot blames Rugby Afrique president for almost everything:
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 6431985666
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 3210723328
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 6420446208

I get he feels betrayed, but how can a guy aspiring to be WR chairman be so convinced that he got African votes in the pocket whereas in this forum basically everybody assumed they were always going to listen to France?

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby carbonero » Fri, 22 May 2020, 00:46

"He asked to be part of the group and then suddenly disappeared”.

The head of Rugby Afrique was part of his campaign. Pichot thought Africa was on his side because Babbou sat through all his meetings.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Hernan14 » Fri, 22 May 2020, 01:39

Armchair Fan wrote:In this long interview Agustín Pichot blames Rugby Afrique president for almost everything:
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 6431985666
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 3210723328
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 6420446208

I get he feels betrayed, but how can a guy aspiring to be WR chairman be so convinced that he got African votes in the pocket whereas in this forum basically everybody assumed they were always going to listen to France?


I had not commented due to my nationality, but my ethics forces me to respond in this case, I read racist comments in this forum, abominable defenses to the status quo in a forum about "tiers 2 & 3" ... but it seems to me very low this comment, because many users do not understand Spanish, and him explained very well about the vote of Africa.

"One of our group disappeared, we are still looking for him, his name is Khaled Babbou ... he asked to be part of the group, a year ago, when I didn't even plan to go as Chairman ... I have conversations, he came to my house , we got together in the USA, in Europe, he was the most combative of all (against Beaumont) ... and suddenly, he disappeared, one Saturday morning, I was called from South Africa asking me if I had spoken in the last 48 hours with Khaled Babbou, because they had bad feelings...Pichot: No, I did not speak ... I called him and he said "wait, I'll call you"... and I thought, bye bye, that's it (obviously he was going to vote for Beaumont) ... and when we spoke he told me stay calm "and I never heard from him again ...and I stay calm, we lost ..

" There were 20 of us in the WhatsApp group who chatted every day ... but the guy, he wanted fight every day (against Beaumont), he got in the meetings to discuss (actually he says se ponía en 4 patas, but non-Spanish speakers don't understand it)"

"If is an enemy, ok, if he is a friend, more or less, but also ok, but if you put on your backpack, you called me to get on the boat and suddenly you shot me sideways, you say, stop, I got lost, if you were shooting over there and now you shoot me over here"..."I did'not go to convince anyone who we already knew that they were not going to vote for me or went to offer them anything, they go to do that... you already know about Japan, about the Lions fixture, about Fiji with France ...if the favors were paid, well you see them"

"after that stage is over, and after I was more calm, and I called him (Babbou), he doesn't attend me, I wrote him on WhatsApp and he gave me the viewed, but he didn't answer me"..."I don't have to get red face, I was a dirigent and I am no longer one, but now Khaled Babbou is a member of the small table of World Rugby"...

In the rest of the interview he accepts the result very well, and admits that it is a political game, that him not is silly about ... we must tell our international friends, that although it is a sports interview, it is a program in relaxed tone and more related to humor than sports.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby TheStroBro » Fri, 22 May 2020, 03:34

Armchair Fan wrote:In this long interview Agustín Pichot blames Rugby Afrique president for almost everything:
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 6431985666
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 3210723328
https://twitter.com/TNTSportsLA/status/ ... 6420446208

I get he feels betrayed, but how can a guy aspiring to be WR chairman be so convinced that he got African votes in the pocket whereas in this forum basically everybody assumed they were always going to listen to France?

I don't think he's coming back anytime soon. I'm pretty sure the only way for someone to run for chair or vice chair is to hold a seat on the World Council. He has since resigned from the seat he held as a representative of Argentina.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Canalina » Fri, 22 May 2020, 05:16

I think this is a sort of "tombstone" upon his political future. When you lose and you start to point the finger accusing the others, in a not so veiled way, to be corrupted, you lose not one the battle but also the face.
Sorry but he confirms to be a little person and to have not the spirit of rugby inside him. I've heard the interview and the tone seems to me not "relaxed" and with humor, but quite angry, under the laughs

Hernan14 wrote:I had not commented due to my nationality, but my ethics forces me to respond in this case, I read racist comments in this forum, abominable defenses to the status quo in a forum about "tiers 2 & 3" ... but it seems to me very low this comment, because many users do not understand Spanish, and him explained very well about the vote of Africa.
...

Considering that I was maybe the only one defending "the status quo", I suppose you are referring to me.
May I know why the defense of the status quo was abominable and where you see racist comments?

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 22 May 2020, 08:20

carbonero wrote:"He asked to be part of the group and then suddenly disappeared”.

The head of Rugby Afrique was part of his campaign. Pichot thought Africa was on his side because Babbou sat through all his meetings.

But this was an electoral campaign. Votes were supposed to be dancing and if there was one in the air, it was Africa's. There was 2023 RWC precedent as well.

Babbou was proposed for the Executive Committee by both South Africa and France. His interview during the week of elections was selling Africa as the next Pacific nations, basically asking French and English clubs to scout African talent rather than developing it at home:
https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/k ... nt-2563798

By the way, there is the claim that Rugby Africa Executive Committee decided the vote, not Babbou by himself:
https://allafrica.com/stories/202005040340.html

Hernan14 wrote:I had not commented due to my nationality, but my ethics forces me to respond in this case, I read racist comments in this forum, abominable defenses to the status quo in a forum about "tiers 2 & 3" ... but it seems to me very low this comment, because many users do not understand Spanish, and him explained very well about the vote of Africa.

[TRANSCRIPTION OF THE INTERVIEW]

In the rest of the interview he accepts the result very well, and admits that it is a political game, that him not is silly about ... we must tell our international friends, that although it is a sports interview, it is a program in relaxed tone and more related to humor than sports.

Sorry but I don't get what is low in the comment. For most of the interview he's focusing on Rugby Afrique guy and how he feels betrayed. If I recall well, not a single time he signals that even with his two votes he still needed another one to win. And as I said it astonishes me how convinced he was that he got Africa in the pocket considering historical voting patterns by Rugby Afrique and the fact France did support Babbou for ExCo, something known as World Rugby sent a press release.

And I find perfectly normal that in a Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum not everybody agrees on the best path for Tier 2 & 3 development, simply because they are extremely different. In fact I think that's what enriches a forum.
Last edited by Armchair Fan on Fri, 22 May 2020, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.

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