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2019 RWC Legacy

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2019 RWC Legacy

Postby jservuk » Thu, 31 Oct 2019, 14:45

It would be interesting to track the legacy on 2019 RWC in Japan on a separate thread.

Promoted by this article here:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... -world-cup

Moves are afoot to capitalise on the success of the national side in the tournament.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 01 Nov 2019, 09:30

We'll know more within the next 2 years exactly what the World Cup will do for Japan. Hopefully it's a good legacy. Ideally it will mean a proper professional league in one of the biggest markets in Asia.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby eal22 » Sat, 02 Nov 2019, 20:29

One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 Nov 2019, 21:34

eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby The Do » Sat, 02 Nov 2019, 21:38

eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


I think you are crazy if you think the Middle East would host a successful Rugby World Cup. What support is there for Rugby in the Middle East? Would locals care? Even the Soccer Asian Cup (think the Euros or Copa Americas) that was hosted in the UAE earlier this year was plagued with low attendance, and this is their no 1 sport. They could not sell out the final in a 43,000 seat stadium, with an average of just over 12,600 per game. This is their number 1 sport. In 2011, Qatar hosted the same tournament with a similar average attendance. Again in a country where soccer is the number 1 sport. When are you going to play games? At 2:00am when it is cool enough to play?

Outside the “Big 8” and now Japan, only Italy, Argentina (with or without help from Uruguay), USA and Canada would be able to host a successful Rugby World Cup at the moment or near future. Many other countries COULD host a World Cup but not at the level of attendance, financial successful, amount of sponsorship, organisation skill of the host union etc that is now the level expected from from a Rugby World Cup these days.

That’s not to say I would not like to see a Rugby World Cup hosted outside of the 9 nations that have already hosted games. I would love to see an Italian, Argentine, American or Canadian World Cup. I would love to see a pool group played in Namibia, Spain, Uruguay etc

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby eal22 » Sat, 02 Nov 2019, 21:53

victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


I guess you are correct. Let's circle the wagons instead and just hold every RWC match at Twickenham from now on.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 Nov 2019, 22:13

No, man. I want the RWC to grow. But you can only host a World Cup of any sport where there is a reasonable market for that. Apart from T1s (which includes Argentina and Italy), only Japan (and 2019 is NOT a surprise) now and MAYBE North America IF MLR really takes off are places where you can have a RWC in the near future. Of course you could host it in a T1 country and have a couple of venues in a neighbour T2, like Uruguay in an Argentina RWC, Fiji in an Ausssie RWC or somehow a Pan-European bid in the future. Things like this are ok to dream about.

Remember: RWC means you need a country with a dozen cities with decent stadiums and with real chances of getting bing crowds. Otherwise it is unrealistic, as he RWC PAYS World Rugby bills and finances the development of T2/3 rugby, women's rugby and sevens for 4 years. You can't risk too much.
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 02 Nov 2019, 23:11

I think we would be able to host it successfully and making the significant profit World Rugby needs. It won't happen because of political obstacles I've described many times, but I don't see why not. All doubts I could have on mere organizational aspects were erased in Barcelona 2016 and Bilbao 2018, plus local crowd increasing.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 00:53

victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


Japan has not always been a Tier 1-like country. They’ve been considered “Tier 1.5,” at least since they beat South Africa, but other than a relatively healthy university culture they have been squarely in the Tier 2 camp. They are definitely not a superpower which is eal22’s point. The vast majority of Japanese don’t know much about rugby but backed the tournament because of their national pride in hosting the tournament. There were still a ton of foreign fans there too, which lends credence to his belief.

victorsra wrote:No, man. I want the RWC to grow. But you can only host a World Cup of any sport where there is a reasonable market for that. Apart from T1s (which includes Argentina and Italy), only Japan (and 2019 is NOT a surprise) now and MAYBE North America IF MLR really takes off are places where you can have a RWC in the near future. Of course you could host it in a T1 country and have a couple of venues in a neighbour T2, like Uruguay in an Argentina RWC, Fiji in an Ausssie RWC or somehow a Pan-European bid in the future. Things like this are ok to dream about.

Remember: RWC means you need a country with a dozen cities with decent stadiums and with real chances of getting bing crowds. Otherwise it is unrealistic, as he RWC PAYS World Rugby bills and finances the development of T2/3 rugby, women's rugby and sevens for 4 years. You can't risk too much.


This is mostly true, can’t just throw it in any random country and expect success. But I wager if you put it in pretty much any European country like Spain or Germany then you’ll get enough 6 Nations fans traveling to lift the tournament. If the US/Canada weren’t so big then I’d say the same for us too.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 01:27

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


Japan has not always been a Tier 1-like country. They’ve been considered “Tier 1.5,” at least since they beat South Africa, but other than a relatively healthy university culture they have been squarely in the Tier 2 camp. They are definitely not a superpower which is eal22’s point. The vast majority of Japanese don’t know much about rugby but backed the tournament because of their national pride in hosting the tournament. There were still a ton of foreign fans there too, which lends credence to his belief.

A bit longer than that. Japan has 'always' hosted Tier 1 teams.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 02:16

They’ve played against Tier 1 nations but nowhere near the frequency of actual Tier 1 countries. And those were also mixed in with Asian competition like Taiwan or Saudi Arabia.

The US and Canada have had their share against Tier 1 countries but by no means are they in the “almost Tier 1” camp.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 03:52

victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


Rugby in Japan up until the last 4 years was nowhere near being a T1 nation. Yes, of all the T2 nations they probably had a more solid history with the game, there was a time decades ago where the sport was very popular, but most if not all of that support disappeared in the years that followed. I'll say something that might be somewhat controversial. Without that victory over South Africa 4 years ago I don't think this tournament is nearly as successful as it was. When Japan were awarded the World Cup back in 2009 they were a mid level T2 nation at best, and there were no signs the national team was getting any better, and no-one was sure whether the Japanese public would support it. 4 years ago the rugby world was hit by a Japanese lightning bolt that no-one saw coming. And all of a sudden the landscape had shifted. And because of that they automatically qualified. And then the pools were drawn and Japan found themselves in a Pool where they could reach the quarterfinals from. So, that one victory 4 years ago I believe is what generated the enthusiasm we saw for not just the national team, but for the entire tournament. I think the idea that Japan have always been T1-like is completely ridiculous. Having history and playing numbers means little if no-one is watching the sport.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 03:59

Armchair Fan wrote:I think we would be able to host it successfully and making the significant profit World Rugby needs. It won't happen because of political obstacles I've described many times, but I don't see why not. All doubts I could have on mere organizational aspects were erased in Barcelona 2016 and Bilbao 2018, plus local crowd increasing.


Spain is close to the 6N so there would easily be tens of thousands of travelling supporters who would make their way to the country for the tournament.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 04:11

Let's stop calling them "not a rugby nation." They're clearly a Rugby Nation. It's more popular in Japan than it is in Australia.

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


Japan has not always been a Tier 1-like country. They’ve been considered “Tier 1.5,” at least since they beat South Africa, but other than a relatively healthy university culture they have been squarely in the Tier 2 camp. They are definitely not a superpower which is eal22’s point. The vast majority of Japanese don’t know much about rugby but backed the tournament because of their national pride in hosting the tournament. There were still a ton of foreign fans there too, which lends credence to his belief.



It's the third most popular sport in Japan. Plenty of Japanese people know about Rugby.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 06:15

victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


I think it could work in other nations as long as they are strategically chosen. I think Spain could be an option thanks largely to proximity and attraction for travelling fans.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 08:14

I'm starting to think anywhere in Europe could realistically be a good option, as long as there's at least 7-8 years preparation time in order to help develop the national team and grow public support. Italy to me was always a safe option due to being in the 6 Nations. But on the back of the success in Japan, as well as the number of traveling fans who make the RWC trip every 4 years now, I don't see any reason why RWC, at least in Europe, couldn't be held in any number of nations outside the 6N. I think a big part of what has made Japan a success is there are so many rugby fans who had never been to a rugby match outside the 6N/RC regions, so not only does it give WR a chance to to develop the game, it gives fans somewhere new to go and experience. How many rugby fans have traveled to NZ, Australia, or the UK on a regular basis to watch test matches? I'd say a lot. How many would love to experience the World Cup in somewhere like Spain, or Germany, or somewhere else in Europe? On the back of the success in Japan, the answer would seem to be many. When you factors all those things together, that Russian bid for 2027 isn't looking so crazy anymore. So, as far as I'm concerned, Japan has been a good test run for where rugby can go next.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby DotJP » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 09:59

WR said t1 v t2 matches will be increased more by 39% and they promised it again. It is good news for t2 teams, because they can make occasions to improve their teams easier than before Japan have ever experienced. I think it is a good support from t1 teams.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 10:05

The problem is that such an increase can be achieved without real change, just giving more matches to the very same T2 teams. We're already watching that with 2020 announcements, every 6 Nations member wants to play Japan to comply with their mandatory share of T2 games.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby jservuk » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 10:26

I think we should stick to the topic which is the legacy of RWC 2019 in Japan - what lasting impact has hosting the tournament had/will have in years to come for Japan.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby jservuk » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 10:38

Mention in this article about prospects for Japan joining TRC if they do well in 2023.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... for-growth

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 14:50

thatrugbyguy wrote:
victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


Rugby in Japan up until the last 4 years was nowhere near being a T1 nation. Yes, of all the T2 nations they probably had a more solid history with the game, there was a time decades ago where the sport was very popular, but most if not all of that support disappeared in the years that followed. I'll say something that might be somewhat controversial. Without that victory over South Africa 4 years ago I don't think this tournament is nearly as successful as it was. When Japan were awarded the World Cup back in 2009 they were a mid level T2 nation at best, and there were no signs the national team was getting any better, and no-one was sure whether the Japanese public would support it. 4 years ago the rugby world was hit by a Japanese lightning bolt that no-one saw coming. And all of a sudden the landscape had shifted. And because of that they automatically qualified. And then the pools were drawn and Japan found themselves in a Pool where they could reach the quarterfinals from. So, that one victory 4 years ago I believe is what generated the enthusiasm we saw for not just the national team, but for the entire tournament. I think the idea that Japan have always been T1-like is completely ridiculous. Having history and playing numbers means little if no-one is watching the sport.


Of course it was. Japan had more players and schools/universities playing rugby than many other T1s much before 2015. Big numbers or decades. Again, don't mistake national team/high performance/spectacle with rugby! Like Argentina, Japan had a T1 amateur environment before being elevated to the status of T1.

The RWC brought rugby to new audience in Japan? Yes. But they had rugby people enough when they bid. Their question was how to make those amateur-minded rugby people to fully embrace the RWC.
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 17:39

victorsra wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:
victorsra wrote:
eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


This is definitly NOT true.

Japan has always been a Tier1-like country, with a really big number of players, fans... no other Tier 2 is close to that.


Rugby in Japan up until the last 4 years was nowhere near being a T1 nation. Yes, of all the T2 nations they probably had a more solid history with the game, there was a time decades ago where the sport was very popular, but most if not all of that support disappeared in the years that followed. I'll say something that might be somewhat controversial. Without that victory over South Africa 4 years ago I don't think this tournament is nearly as successful as it was. When Japan were awarded the World Cup back in 2009 they were a mid level T2 nation at best, and there were no signs the national team was getting any better, and no-one was sure whether the Japanese public would support it. 4 years ago the rugby world was hit by a Japanese lightning bolt that no-one saw coming. And all of a sudden the landscape had shifted. And because of that they automatically qualified. And then the pools were drawn and Japan found themselves in a Pool where they could reach the quarterfinals from. So, that one victory 4 years ago I believe is what generated the enthusiasm we saw for not just the national team, but for the entire tournament. I think the idea that Japan have always been T1-like is completely ridiculous. Having history and playing numbers means little if no-one is watching the sport.


Of course it was. Japan had more players and schools/universities playing rugby than many other T1s much before 2015. Big numbers or decades. Again, don't mistake national team/high performance/spectacle with rugby! Like Argentina, Japan had a T1 amateur environment before being elevated to the status of T1.

The RWC brought rugby to new audience in Japan? Yes. But they had rugby people enough when they bid. Their question was how to make those amateur-minded rugby people to fully embrace the RWC.


So does the US. But the only Tier 1 countries with fewer players than either US/Japan are Scotland, Wales and Italy.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 18:15

Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2 countries have? Many countries count kids playing tag and this leads to mistakes about demographics (in other words, forget World Rugby numbers). The only fair way is to count "the same thing". Japan's schools tournaments are massive, with like 50 regional competitions followed by finals.

Look at these clubs numbers Japan has https://www.statista.com/statistics/104 ... r-by-type/ T1-like

Btw, a Japanese former player that lives here told me when he was at school (1970s-80s) there were more schools playing rugby tournaments than today. It in fact declined!
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby 4N » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 18:25

I have heard that rugby was more popular than soccer in Japan until the 80s (with baseball being the #1 sport). Basically what we are seeing now is a resurgence.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby The Do » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 20:19

victorsra wrote:
Btw, a Japanese former player that lives here told me when he was at school (1970s-80s) there were more schools playing rugby tournaments than today. It in fact declined!



That would down to demographics. I just had a quick look a population pyramid of Japan from 2018. While the 10-19 age male group only makes up 4.6% of the population, the 40-49 age group make up 7.4%. There is 50% more males in the 40-49 group compared to the 10-19 group. So it would be weird if there wasn’t more teams back in the 1980s

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