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2019 RWC Legacy

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 20:23

Makes sense
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 20:25

eal22 wrote:One legacy of this tournament should surely be that the tournament can be hosted successfully by a non-superpower in Rugby. The game is a global brand and fans and locals from almost anywhere will support it. I hope the tournament will be taken to North America, South America, Middle East, etc in the future.


Yeah, try hosting the RWC in Mexico. Most people will think it's some English form of American football. It wouldn't work this generation, no.

Only non traditional nation I can see hosting the tournament would be Italia. But, after the scenes yesterday, a South African RWC would be lovely.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 20:37

victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2 countries have? Many countries count kids playing tag and this leads to mistakes about demographics (in other words, forget World Rugby numbers). The only fair way is to count "the same thing". Japan's schools tournaments are massive, with like 50 regional competitions followed by finals.

Look at these clubs numbers Japan has https://www.statista.com/statistics/104 ... r-by-type/ T1-like

Btw, a Japanese former player that lives here told me when he was at school (1970s-80s) there were more schools playing rugby tournaments than today. It in fact declined!


In the US we have something like 900 college clubs resulting in around 32,000 players (men and women). This is easily our strongest category though as most people pick up the sport in college and then no longer play after graduation.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 20:45

But this is pretty good indeed.
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 22:43

victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2 countries have? Many countries count kids playing tag and this leads to mistakes about demographics (in other words, forget World Rugby numbers). The only fair way is to count "the same thing". Japan's schools tournaments are massive, with like 50 regional competitions followed by finals.

Look at these clubs numbers Japan has https://www.statista.com/statistics/104 ... r-by-type/ T1-like

Btw, a Japanese former player that lives here told me when he was at school (1970s-80s) there were more schools playing rugby tournaments than today. It in fact declined!


Tag is fine if the player is registered with the Union. We do have some tag rugby programs that don't do national registration...but that is less than 1000 kids nationwide.

The problem with WR statistics is that they could some weird numbers and not just focus on registrations. Like look at the numbers for India...I've spoken with a few RDOs that worked in India on WR funding and what WR considers a "player" is funny. "Oh they saw a rugby ball this year, COUNT EM!"

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 22:44

Yeah World Rugby statistics and players counted is very funny and probably inflated.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 22:51

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2 countries have? Many countries count kids playing tag and this leads to mistakes about demographics (in other words, forget World Rugby numbers). The only fair way is to count "the same thing". Japan's schools tournaments are massive, with like 50 regional competitions followed by finals.

Look at these clubs numbers Japan has https://www.statista.com/statistics/104 ... r-by-type/ T1-like

Btw, a Japanese former player that lives here told me when he was at school (1970s-80s) there were more schools playing rugby tournaments than today. It in fact declined!


Tag is fine if the player is registered with the Union. We do have some tag rugby programs that don't do national registration...but that is less than 1000 kids nationwide.

The problem with WR statistics is that they could some weird numbers and not just focus on registrations. Like look at the numbers for India...I've spoken with a few RDOs that worked in India on WR funding and what WR considers a "player" is funny. "Oh they saw a rugby ball this year, COUNT EM!"



The question is not if tag is fine to count or not, but if everybody count it. T1 nations don't usually count too-much-informal-rugby, or such non-competitive school iniciatives, while some T2/3s count everybody that saw a rugby ball, like India, Brazil, I guess China and probably many others. You need the same criterea for everybody. Otherwise, it is mambo jambo demographics.
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 22:53

victorsra wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2 countries have? Many countries count kids playing tag and this leads to mistakes about demographics (in other words, forget World Rugby numbers). The only fair way is to count "the same thing". Japan's schools tournaments are massive, with like 50 regional competitions followed by finals.

Look at these clubs numbers Japan has https://www.statista.com/statistics/104 ... r-by-type/ T1-like

Btw, a Japanese former player that lives here told me when he was at school (1970s-80s) there were more schools playing rugby tournaments than today. It in fact declined!


Tag is fine if the player is registered with the Union. We do have some tag rugby programs that don't do national registration...but that is less than 1000 kids nationwide.

The problem with WR statistics is that they could some weird numbers and not just focus on registrations. Like look at the numbers for India...I've spoken with a few RDOs that worked in India on WR funding and what WR considers a "player" is funny. "Oh they saw a rugby ball this year, COUNT EM!"



The question is not if tag is fine to count or not, but if everybody count it. T1 nations don't usually count too-much-informal-rugby, while some T2/3s count everybody that saw a rugby ball, like India, Brazil, I guess China and probably many others. You need the same criterea for everybody. Otherwise, it is mambo jambo demographics.


I mean yeah, otherwise World Rugby wouldn't be able to proclaim their "fastest growing sport" agenda, the numbers would not be nearly as sexy, and the sport looks less "global" as a result

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Nov 2019, 22:57

that's a bingo
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 00:36

victorsra wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2 countries have? Many countries count kids playing tag and this leads to mistakes about demographics (in other words, forget World Rugby numbers). The only fair way is to count "the same thing". Japan's schools tournaments are massive, with like 50 regional competitions followed by finals.

Look at these clubs numbers Japan has https://www.statista.com/statistics/104 ... r-by-type/ T1-like

Btw, a Japanese former player that lives here told me when he was at school (1970s-80s) there were more schools playing rugby tournaments than today. It in fact declined!


Tag is fine if the player is registered with the Union. We do have some tag rugby programs that don't do national registration...but that is less than 1000 kids nationwide.

The problem with WR statistics is that they could some weird numbers and not just focus on registrations. Like look at the numbers for India...I've spoken with a few RDOs that worked in India on WR funding and what WR considers a "player" is funny. "Oh they saw a rugby ball this year, COUNT EM!"



The question is not if tag is fine to count or not, but if everybody count it. T1 nations don't usually count too-much-informal-rugby, or such non-competitive school iniciatives, while some T2/3s count everybody that saw a rugby ball, like India, Brazil, I guess China and probably many others. You need the same criterea for everybody. Otherwise, it is mambo jambo demographics.


Colombia was tied with South Africa for having the most players through “Get Into Rugby.” Now the vast majority of this is through touch/tag/flag rugby so it’s not like there’s going to be some tidal wave of rugby going through Colombia. But it’s still great to see the game reach as many people as it did in a country that knows less than nothing about the sport.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 04 Nov 2019, 02:31

The stats by sports organisations have always been dubious. Those stats are meant to impresses sponsors and drive up the value of competitions like the World Cup. When WR says there are 100 million fans in Asia everyone knows that's bullshit of the highest order.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby The Do » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 21:09

Looks like the Japanese will have the honour of hosting the RWC runners-up, England in 2020.

4 July
Japan v England - Oita

11 July
Japan v England - Kobe

I guess more high profile opponents could be a legacy of the RWC in Japan.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby ficcp » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 23:21

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2
The problem with WR statistics is that they could some weird numbers and not just focus on registrations. Like look at the numbers for India...I've spoken with a few RDOs that worked in India on WR funding and what WR considers a "player" is funny. "Oh they saw a rugby ball this year, COUNT EM!"


WR Marketing Study (2018) selected China, India, Brazil and Mexico as markets with a lot of potential for Rugby. They did not clarify how many generations were necesary to have a good base of players in those nations. I do not share the concept that a rugby fan is someone who watched a rugby match during the previous year. In Japan , Rugby was introduced as early as 1862 in Yokohama.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby ficcp » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 23:32

One legacy of RWC 2019 was that to be the champion it is necessary to be prepared to beat any other team in the competition. Prepare a team during 4 years (with a huge investment of resources) to beat the team with the best record during the previous 5 years is not enough.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Sat, 09 Nov 2019, 02:36

ficcp wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2
The problem with WR statistics is that they could some weird numbers and not just focus on registrations. Like look at the numbers for India...I've spoken with a few RDOs that worked in India on WR funding and what WR considers a "player" is funny. "Oh they saw a rugby ball this year, COUNT EM!"


WR Marketing Study (2018) selected China, India, Brazil and Mexico as markets with a lot of potential for Rugby. They did not clarify how many generations were necesary to have a good base of players in those nations. I do not share the concept that a rugby fan is someone who watched a rugby match during the previous year. In Japan , Rugby was introduced as early as 1862 in Yokohama.


I thought that study was done in 2013, and said unions are supposed to receive additional funding.

China and India look like a bust, they barely play any international rugby outside the sanctioned windows and have trouble with funding. Brazil on the other hand have actually become relatively successful, Mexico realistically is 10 years away from that kind of level at best.

I do re-call another list of "high performance" T3 nations that get more funding - it was Belgium, Brazil, Chile, Germany, Hong Kong, Kenya, Korea, Zimbabwe.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 09 Nov 2019, 04:37

The problem with WR is every few years there is some type of report stating their goals that eventually are never reached. It was said after the 2003 World cup the aim was to have 12 teams capable of qualifying for the Quarter Finals by 2011, and 16 by 2015. That never eventuated. The truth is Japan have gotten where they are now largely in spite of World Rugby's goals for the game globally. They have targeted places like China, India and Brazil but only Brazil have shown to be actually developing. How much of Brazil's development is down to World Rugby? It's hard to say. It's not like their investments haven't helped, but it's not reaching the goals required. So what would I do if I were trying to develop the game?

• 1) Identify which unions below the teams outside of the regular World Cup participants have the best structures in place. There's no use going after China or India if there isn't some type of foundation for the game.
• 2) Promote the games between T2/T3 nations. You can't expand the game if no-one knows Brazil or Chile or Spain or whoever are actually playing test matches in July and November along with other nations.
• 3) Help integrate T2/T3 nation into T1 tours. I'm a big proponent of mid-week Test matches against T2 opposition. We use to do it for club teams, we can do it for test matches. It gives the T1 nation a warm up game prior to their test against their T1 opposition, and it gives the T2 nation a valuable game to play at home. New Zealand did it against Samoa a few years back, played on a Tuesday I believe to a sold out stadium. I can't see any reason why France cannot play Uruguay as a warm up match when they tour Argentina next year.
• 4) Get rid out automatic World Cup qualification. 20 years ago it made sense why they got rid of qualifiers for T1 nations because the gulf in class was too great. That's not the case anymore. Making every tournament in the world from the 6N, to the RC, to the ARC, to the REC, all be part of the qualifying process will increase the value of games. Right now, the qualifying system is a mess.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Sat, 09 Nov 2019, 14:23

ficcp wrote:One legacy of RWC 2019 was that to be the champion it is necessary to be prepared to beat any other team in the competition. Prepare a team during 4 years (with a huge investment of resources) to beat the team with the best record during the previous 5 years is not enough.


Is that a legacy? This was the first RWC where the winner lost at any point in the tournament.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 02:17

thatrugbyguy wrote:The problem with WR is every few years there is some type of report stating their goals that eventually are never reached. It was said after the 2003 World cup the aim was to have 12 teams capable of qualifying for the Quarter Finals by 2011, and 16 by 2015. That never eventuated. The truth is Japan have gotten where they are now largely in spite of World Rugby's goals for the game globally. They have targeted places like China, India and Brazil but only Brazil have shown to be actually developing. How much of Brazil's development is down to World Rugby? It's hard to say. It's not like their investments haven't helped, but it's not reaching the goals required. So what would I do if I were trying to develop the game?

• 1) Identify which unions below the teams outside of the regular World Cup participants have the best structures in place. There's no use going after China or India if there isn't some type of foundation for the game.
• 2) Promote the games between T2/T3 nations. You can't expand the game if no-one knows Brazil or Chile or Spain or whoever are actually playing test matches in July and November along with other nations.
• 3) Help integrate T2/T3 nation into T1 tours. I'm a big proponent of mid-week Test matches against T2 opposition. We use to do it for club teams, we can do it for test matches. It gives the T1 nation a warm up game prior to their test against their T1 opposition, and it gives the T2 nation a valuable game to play at home. New Zealand did it against Samoa a few years back, played on a Tuesday I believe to a sold out stadium. I can't see any reason why France cannot play Uruguay as a warm up match when they tour Argentina next year.
• 4) Get rid out automatic World Cup qualification. 20 years ago it made sense why they got rid of qualifiers for T1 nations because the gulf in class was too great. That's not the case anymore. Making every tournament in the world from the 6N, to the RC, to the ARC, to the REC, all be part of the qualifying process will increase the value of games. Right now, the qualifying system is a mess.


Mexico isn't too much of a pipe dream in this scenario. They beat Paraguay this year and their results against Colombia are more closer than in the past.

Pretty much on-board with what you have said. RugbyLiebe seems very passionate about getting rid of auto qualifying. I think another thing that needs to be said is that these countries need to be promoted inside their own countries. Have the USA Eagles be on a network like ESPN or even Fox Sports 1, for example. Brazil, Chile, Korea, etc should all try to find a way to be on domestic media that reaches a lot of people and can bring them consistent revenue.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 02:36

thatrugbyguy wrote:The problem with WR is every few years there is some type of report stating their goals that eventually are never reached. It was said after the 2003 World cup the aim was to have 12 teams capable of qualifying for the Quarter Finals by 2011, and 16 by 2015. That never eventuated. The truth is Japan have gotten where they are now largely in spite of World Rugby's goals for the game globally. They have targeted places like China, India and Brazil but only Brazil have shown to be actually developing. How much of Brazil's development is down to World Rugby? It's hard to say. It's not like their investments haven't helped, but it's not reaching the goals required. So what would I do if I were trying to develop the game

• 1) Identify which unions below the teams outside of the regular World Cup participants have the best structures in place. There's no use going after China or India if there isn't some type of foundation for the game.
• 2) Promote the games between T2/T3 nations. You can't expand the game if no-one knows Brazil or Chile or Spain or whoever are actually playing test matches in July and November along with other nations.
• 3) Help integrate T2/T3 nation into T1 tours. I'm a big proponent of mid-week Test matches against T2 opposition. We use to do it for club teams, we can do it for test matches. It gives the T1 nation a warm up game prior to their test against their T1 opposition, and it gives the T2 nation a valuable game to play at home. New Zealand did it against Samoa a few years back, played on a Tuesday I believe to a sold out stadium. I can't see any reason why France cannot play Uruguay as a warm up match when they tour Argentina next year.
• 4) Get rid out automatic World Cup qualification. 20 years ago it made sense why they got rid of qualifiers for T1 nations because the gulf in class was too great. That's not the case anymore. Making every tournament in the world from the 6N, to the RC, to the ARC, to the REC, all be part of the qualifying process will increase the value of games. Right now, the qualifying system is a mess.


It is not hard to say. I've said many times. Brazil is not developing its club rugby, only its national team. And WR's role is the money they put on travels for tests and ARC. Which is important. But our national team development is related to the quality of our high performance academy (unrelated to WR) and the Argentine coach (unrelated to WR, although very close to Hourcade).

About the RWC, it is very important for Brazil. It is a major target for the Tupis and the sponsors know that. And ESPN's broadcast of the RWC since 2003 is indeed a major force in the boom of clubs and players experienced between 2003 and 2015. But since 2016 there is a stagnation in club rugby's numbers (in some areas a decline).
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 02:53

ficcp wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:Not sure if this is true. How many clubs/schools/universities playing contact competitive rugby do US and other top T2
The problem with WR statistics is that they could some weird numbers and not just focus on registrations. Like look at the numbers for India...I've spoken with a few RDOs that worked in India on WR funding and what WR considers a "player" is funny. "Oh they saw a rugby ball this year, COUNT EM!"


WR Marketing Study (2018) selected China, India, Brazil and Mexico as markets with a lot of potential for Rugby. They did not clarify how many generations were necesary to have a good base of players in those nations. I do not share the concept that a rugby fan is someone who watched a rugby match during the previous year. In Japan , Rugby was introduced as early as 1862 in Yokohama.


Not sure if this was actually a real market study or simply a check on Wikipedia's lists of population and economy.
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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 11 Nov 2019, 10:29

victorsra wrote:
ficcp wrote:WR Marketing Study (2018) selected China, India, Brazil and Mexico as markets with a lot of potential for Rugby.

Not sure if this was actually a real market study or simply a check on Wikipedia's lists of population and economy.


:lol: As sad as it sounds, this could very much be the case
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 12 Nov 2019, 20:29

victorsra wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:The problem with WR is every few years there is some type of report stating their goals that eventually are never reached. It was said after the 2003 World cup the aim was to have 12 teams capable of qualifying for the Quarter Finals by 2011, and 16 by 2015. That never eventuated. The truth is Japan have gotten where they are now largely in spite of World Rugby's goals for the game globally. They have targeted places like China, India and Brazil but only Brazil have shown to be actually developing. How much of Brazil's development is down to World Rugby? It's hard to say. It's not like their investments haven't helped, but it's not reaching the goals required. So what would I do if I were trying to develop the game

• 1) Identify which unions below the teams outside of the regular World Cup participants have the best structures in place. There's no use going after China or India if there isn't some type of foundation for the game.
• 2) Promote the games between T2/T3 nations. You can't expand the game if no-one knows Brazil or Chile or Spain or whoever are actually playing test matches in July and November along with other nations.
• 3) Help integrate T2/T3 nation into T1 tours. I'm a big proponent of mid-week Test matches against T2 opposition. We use to do it for club teams, we can do it for test matches. It gives the T1 nation a warm up game prior to their test against their T1 opposition, and it gives the T2 nation a valuable game to play at home. New Zealand did it against Samoa a few years back, played on a Tuesday I believe to a sold out stadium. I can't see any reason why France cannot play Uruguay as a warm up match when they tour Argentina next year.
• 4) Get rid out automatic World Cup qualification. 20 years ago it made sense why they got rid of qualifiers for T1 nations because the gulf in class was too great. That's not the case anymore. Making every tournament in the world from the 6N, to the RC, to the ARC, to the REC, all be part of the qualifying process will increase the value of games. Right now, the qualifying system is a mess.


It is not hard to say. I've said many times. Brazil is not developing its club rugby, only its national team. And WR's role is the money they put on travels for tests and ARC. Which is important. But our national team development is related to the quality of our high performance academy (unrelated to WR) and the Argentine coach (unrelated to WR, although very close to Hourcade).

About the RWC, it is very important for Brazil. It is a major target for the Tupis and the sponsors know that. And ESPN's broadcast of the RWC since 2003 is indeed a major force in the boom of clubs and players experienced between 2003 and 2015. But since 2016 there is a stagnation in club rugby's numbers (in some areas a decline).


It seems that their #1 goal is to qualify for the World Cup so that they can get sponsors and awareness, both of which can help grow the sport. Hopefully they don’t get too focused and put the cart before the horse.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 13 Nov 2019, 07:33

Return_of_BG_97 wrote:Mexico isn't too much of a pipe dream in this scenario. They beat Paraguay this year and their results against Colombia are more closer than in the past.


Yeah, but Paraguay or Colombia are purely amateur teams that would probably lose by a huge amount to all Rugby Europe Trophy teams (European 2nd division/3rd if you count the Cartel Nations). Great that rugby is growing, but when they get close results to Uruguay we can start talking about this not being a pipe dream.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby Tobar » Wed, 13 Nov 2019, 13:33

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Return_of_BG_97 wrote:Mexico isn't too much of a pipe dream in this scenario. They beat Paraguay this year and their results against Colombia are more closer than in the past.


Yeah, but Paraguay or Colombia are purely amateur teams that would probably lose by a huge amount to all Rugby Europe Trophy teams (European 2nd division/3rd if you count the Cartel Nations). Great that rugby is growing, but when they get close results to Uruguay we can start talking about this not being a pipe dream.


FWIW Colombia lost 38-24 to Uruguay XV last year. I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s “close” but it’s not a blowout by any means. At least close enough where it’s not so much of a pipe dream.

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Re: 2019 RWC Legacy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 13 Nov 2019, 13:57

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Return_of_BG_97 wrote:Mexico isn't too much of a pipe dream in this scenario. They beat Paraguay this year and their results against Colombia are more closer than in the past.


Yeah, but Paraguay or Colombia are purely amateur teams that would probably lose by a huge amount to all Rugby Europe Trophy teams (European 2nd division/3rd if you count the Cartel Nations). Great that rugby is growing, but when they get close results to Uruguay we can start talking about this not being a pipe dream.

I really doubt Colombia and Paraguay would lose to Lithuania or Ukraine. At least Colombia is probably the level of Switzerland and Poland.
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