Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Continental Club Rugby League

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 23:20

Chester-Donnelly wrote:It is in Australia's long term interest to develop a market for rugby in South East Asia, and also to increase the appeal of their own domestic league. The NRC is not as interesting as the Currie Cup or the Mitre10. They should add the South China Tigers and Asia Pacific Dragons to their NRC, and any other viable South East Asian teams.

Japan will focus on its own development.

The two Krasnoyarsk teams should play an annual mini series with South China Tigers and Asia Pacific Dragons, but also play in the Russian Premier League and the KRL.


I've mentioned what I'd like to see it evolve into. A structure while using Australia as the base involves teams from the PI's and Asia. At first in the form of the Tigers and then who knows.

Posts: 135
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 23:24

victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:I don't know why but I was absolutely sure they had cancelled it

For 2020? Don't know. 2019 it was normaly played.


2020 NRC isn't cancelled. I can't see it being cancelled to be honest. I think it's quite important for young players coming through. It even has a division 2. There could be changes in 2021 with Super Rugby reverting to a fourteen team single round robin tournament. Australia's four teams will not be guaranteed a quarter final place, so each team is likely to play only 13 games. Pure speculation, but the NRC Premier Division could be; Queensland Reds, ACT Brumbies, NSW Warratars, Melbourne Rebels, Western Force, Fijian Drua, South China Tigers. With division 1 and division 2 below that.

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 23:25

victorsra wrote:There is no Korea, never saw a source about this. There is no Japan, they have their own league and won't be part of GRR. Why are you keep mentioning it???

South China Tigers are full of HK national team players. It doesn't matter if they are ethnic Chinese or not, what I mean is it is linked to local rugby.

Where is the source about the Malaysian Rugby Union and Chinese Rugby Union involvement? We are in damn late December, it is time to have the project visible.

There is no pessimism. I am only posing logical questions, not buying mere dreams.


There was supposed to have been some interest from Korea early on. No idea where that currently sits. The Japan angle comes from the Sunwolves being axed from SR and them being a potential option. There was also some talk of the guy behind the BaaBaas and World XV concepts looking to run a team in GRR based out of Japan. But that's probably less likely now considering the pro league plans in the works.

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 23:35

victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:
STMKY wrote:Absolutely disagree with your pessimism. Malaysia Valke and Shanghai BOP Asian teams. As far as I understand, these are joint projects of Malaysia and China. So far they have no players even at Hong Kong and Korea level, therefore, cooperation with Valke and BOP will bring them new competencies in rugby. They will gradually increase the number of local players in these projects. These are revolutionary forms of rugby development in underdeveloped countries. It is very interesting. I consider Russian, Korean and Japanese teams in GRR to be real options. Russia and Japan have pro leagues, but that doesn't mean anything.


Victor is asking what kind of development there is - it doesn’t just have to be that there are local players on the team. Are there Palma to host youth rugby camps in conjunction with this league? Are they going to work closely with whatever local players there are? Or are they just going to exist and hope that a pro rugby team will attract new fans/players?

Because these are 2 teams based entirely on different continents, we get the impression that they will be there for the season and then leave to return for Currie Cup / Mitre 10. This is different from simply having foreign players on your team - the team doesn’t just get up and leave for half the year once the season is done.


Yes, I am totaly in favour of new projects for rugby leagues. We need to break the cartel. But we need a solid clear project behind them. It is realy difficult to see this in GRR, whilst SLAR can become this, but right now it fails as a project at least in part of its markets (and it can be fixed, but not if we only respond with applauses).



I've mentioned it before but there is actually a development plan beyond just hosting teams in country X and country Y. Both in terms of commercially and grassroots. They have even posted overviews of those plans publicly while they are said to be far more extensive when presented to partners.

Posts: 135
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 23:36

Working Class Rugger wrote:
victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:I don't know why but I was absolutely sure they had cancelled it

For 2020? Don't know. 2019 it was normaly played.


There's some question around it from 2021 onwards. I'd prefer for it to stay but there's some mention of a change in structure. If so, I'd like to see it move to our current 4 SR franchises minus Wallaby squad members competing alongside the Force, Fiji, Samoa and Hong Kong in let's call it the Asia-Pacific Rugby Championship.


Ah yes. I was just writing basically the same thing as you at the same time. That makes perfect sense to me. It brings in Australia's fifth professional team and the most viable Asian and Pacific Islands teams. I really don't see any problems with this.

Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Tobar » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 00:27

Working Class Rugger wrote:
victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:I don't know why but I was absolutely sure they had cancelled it

For 2020? Don't know. 2019 it was normaly played.


There's some question around it from 2021 onwards. I'd prefer for it to stay but there's some mention of a change in structure. If so, I'd like to see it move to our current 4 SR franchises minus Wallaby squad members competing alongside the Force, Fiji, Samoa and Hong Kong in let's call it the Asia-Pacific Rugby Championship.


That’d be an interesting way to run it, it may give it more credence (or people may not care because they have the superior Super Rugby to watch).

Do you think it would be wiser to try spreading it to newer markets in Australia that can’t support a SR team? And under this, would the teams be able to sign whoever they want or just Australians?

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 01:19

Tobar wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:I don't know why but I was absolutely sure they had cancelled it

For 2020? Don't know. 2019 it was normaly played.


There's some question around it from 2021 onwards. I'd prefer for it to stay but there's some mention of a change in structure. If so, I'd like to see it move to our current 4 SR franchises minus Wallaby squad members competing alongside the Force, Fiji, Samoa and Hong Kong in let's call it the Asia-Pacific Rugby Championship.


That’d be an interesting way to run it, it may give it more credence (or people may not care because they have the superior Super Rugby to watch).

Do you think it would be wiser to try spreading it to newer markets in Australia that can’t support a SR team? And under this, would the teams be able to sign whoever they want or just Australians?


I think it would provide it with more visibility. It would in essence be an extension of SR and GRR in many ways so for many it would be a seen as somewhat equivalent. Certainly would have a better shot at drawing in viewers as SR games in Aus. between Aus teams are the best drawers all round. And the inclusion of the Fiji and Samoa would do alright as well thanks to large populations living here.

In terms of spreading it to smaller markets. The only major capital without a team at present is Adelaide. Which is as far as I would suggest for now in terms of bases. But that would likely require another outside investor willing to pay the bills and draw talent back from overseas to do it. What would work better in many respects would be the likes of NSW and Queensland looking to take more games to the larger regional centres. Which I have to give NSW credit for next season as they are actually doing this with games in Newcastle and Wollongong (the two biggest regional cities outside of Sydney) and a game in Tamworth.

I think a Reds vs Force game at the Sunshine Coast Stadium (about 1.5 hours north of Brisbane) would be a far bigger draw than QLD Country vs Force.

Online
Posts: 6131
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby victorsra » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 02:07

Working Class Rugger wrote:
victorsra wrote:There is no Korea, never saw a source about this. There is no Japan, they have their own league and won't be part of GRR. Why are you keep mentioning it???

South China Tigers are full of HK national team players. It doesn't matter if they are ethnic Chinese or not, what I mean is it is linked to local rugby.

Where is the source about the Malaysian Rugby Union and Chinese Rugby Union involvement? We are in damn late December, it is time to have the project visible.

There is no pessimism. I am only posing logical questions, not buying mere dreams.


There was supposed to have been some interest from Korea early on. No idea where that currently sits. The Japan angle comes from the Sunwolves being axed from SR and them being a potential option. There was also some talk of the guy behind the BaaBaas and World XV concepts looking to run a team in GRR based out of Japan. But that's probably less likely now considering the pro league plans in the works.


I remember they mentioned Japam in a very early stage, before Sunwoves being kicked out of the Super Rugby and Japan started talking about a new league. Never saw anything published about Korea. There is people speculating, but this is not concrete information.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 888
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby STMKY » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 08:36

For Krasnoyarsk clubs, GRR is better from all points of view than Continental League. Geography is better, time zone is better, rivals are stronger. Compared with the Challenge Cup, the GRR is financially cheaper for Krasnoyarsk.

Posts: 3941
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 18:33

vino_93 wrote:I might be wrong, but I think Spain will be back with Challenge Cup. EPCR doesn't want anymore east-europeans clubs. Travel distances, winter season, so many problems for them. Italy will have one spot for sure. A guy from EPCR said it in an itw a few weeks ago. He doesn't tell anything about second spot, expect that they won't go to Russia anymore. I'm pretty sure they are targetting Spain. Good location, rugby economy growing, same season as every other contenders... and a big market. I'm not saying it will happen (I'm not sure it's interesting for Spanish champion), but I'm sure EPCR is targeting them.

It looks like in Russia they have got the same suspicion as you:
"When EPCR now talks about giving the remaining ticket to the Challenge Cup to an invited participant, we understand that it will not be Enisei. The reason is at least one, the lack of desire to fly to the matches in Krasnoyarsk. EPCR plans to send some questionnaires to clubs from Georgia, Russia, Romania, Spain and according to these documents will choose one team, which will be sent an invitation to the challenge cap. If you ask me, there is 80-90% chances that the choice will fall on the Spaniards".
https://rugger.info/news/30399

I remain skeptical. Other than the allure of playing Tier 1 clubs and franchises I'm not sure it would be wise from our side. Budgets devoted to first teams in Spanish top clubs aren't any bigger than they were a decade ago, when our clubs were severely spanked by French and English teams and an increasingly competitive national scene will equally be a deterrent, given six high profile matches will directly hamper local ambitions. What is more interesting, a Cup title in front of an 8,000 crowd of potential customers for your sponsors or three European matches lost 0-80 in front of your usual 2-3,000 crowd?

Posts: 135
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 19:45

Armchair Fan wrote:
vino_93 wrote:I might be wrong, but I think Spain will be back with Challenge Cup. EPCR doesn't want anymore east-europeans clubs. Travel distances, winter season, so many problems for them. Italy will have one spot for sure. A guy from EPCR said it in an itw a few weeks ago. He doesn't tell anything about second spot, expect that they won't go to Russia anymore. I'm pretty sure they are targetting Spain. Good location, rugby economy growing, same season as every other contenders... and a big market. I'm not saying it will happen (I'm not sure it's interesting for Spanish champion), but I'm sure EPCR is targeting them.

It looks like in Russia they have got the same suspicion as you:
"When EPCR now talks about giving the remaining ticket to the Challenge Cup to an invited participant, we understand that it will not be Enisei. The reason is at least one, the lack of desire to fly to the matches in Krasnoyarsk. EPCR plans to send some questionnaires to clubs from Georgia, Russia, Romania, Spain and according to these documents will choose one team, which will be sent an invitation to the challenge cap. If you ask me, there is 80-90% chances that the choice will fall on the Spaniards".
https://rugger.info/news/30399

I remain skeptical. Other than the allure of playing Tier 1 clubs and franchises I'm not sure it would be wise from our side. Budgets devoted to first teams in Spanish top clubs aren't any bigger than they were a decade ago, when our clubs were severely spanked by French and English teams and an increasingly competitive national scene will equally be a deterrent, given six high profile matches will directly hamper local ambitions. What is more interesting, a Cup title in front of an 8,000 crowd of potential customers for your sponsors or three European matches lost 0-80 in front of your usual 2-3,000 crowd?


Interesting. EPCR are not willing to include teams in Krasnoyarsk, so presumably they also would not consider teams in South Africa. They only want teams in Europe; probably one Italian and one other, which could be Russian but not Siberian, and ideally not somewhere that has continental winters.

Posts: 33
Joined: Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 10:39
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Tiernster » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 20:05

Clearly Epcr has to enable Spanish clubs to compete financially, if they don't it can't happen. If they do thst club will be able to attract a slightly higher calibre of player and compete on both fronts. If they don't it will fail again

Posts: 888
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby STMKY » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 20:10

I told you that Krasnoyarsk has no alternative to GRR. Geographically, by climate, time zone, level of rivals. I think that in the Continental League they will play a maximum of 1-2 years. And they will leave for GRR at the first expansion and creation of the Northern Conference.

Posts: 135
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 20:17

STMKY wrote:I told you that Krasnoyarsk has no alternative to GRR. Geographically, by climate, time zone, level of rivals. I think that in the Continental League they will play a maximum of 1-2 years. And they will leave for GRR at the first expansion and creation of the Northern Conference.


GRR Northern Conference exists only in your mind.
Krasnoyarsk clubs will play in Russian Premier League and Continental League because that's all there is.

Posts: 3941
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 20:21

Tiernster wrote:Clearly Epcr has to enable Spanish clubs to compete financially, if they don't it can't happen. If they do thst club will be able to attract a slightly higher calibre of player and compete on both fronts. If they don't it will fail again

Compete financially? We won't be alive to see that happening. To do anything of worth any Spanish club would need its budget multiplied but at least 3 or 4. And it's not EPCR duty to achieve that.

Posts: 888
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby STMKY » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 20:24

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
STMKY wrote:I told you that Krasnoyarsk has no alternative to GRR. Geographically, by climate, time zone, level of rivals. I think that in the Continental League they will play a maximum of 1-2 years. And they will leave for GRR at the first expansion and creation of the Northern Conference.


GRR Northern Conference exists only in your mind.
Krasnoyarsk clubs will play in Russian Premier League and Continental League because that's all there is.

I mean from the season 2021 or 2022, when there will be the first expansion of GRR.

Posts: 135
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 20:40

STMKY wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
STMKY wrote:I told you that Krasnoyarsk has no alternative to GRR. Geographically, by climate, time zone, level of rivals. I think that in the Continental League they will play a maximum of 1-2 years. And they will leave for GRR at the first expansion and creation of the Northern Conference.


GRR Northern Conference exists only in your mind.
Krasnoyarsk clubs will play in Russian Premier League and Continental League because that's all there is.

I mean from the season 2021 or 2022, when there will be the first expansion of GRR.


You hope

Online
Posts: 6131
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby victorsra » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 21:13

STMKY wrote:For Krasnoyarsk clubs, GRR is better from all points of view than Continental League. Geography is better, time zone is better, rivals are stronger. Compared with the Challenge Cup, the GRR is financially cheaper for Krasnoyarsk.


I do understand what you mean. I think it does make sense that Siberians choose Asia. However, it would make a lot of sense if it were like a league involving North+East Asia (Japan, Korea, China/HK), like an expanded Japanese league with HK and Krasnoyarsk. Not a league involving Southeast Asia/Western Australia/Pacific Islands. It is like if we unified MLR and SLAR in one single Americas league, it would be madness, as rugby is a minor sport in all those areas with little following (Japan apart), at least insuficient for such an ambitious project of so many air travels. I know you'll say conferences north and south will solve GRR issues and you will insist Japan and Korea have interest in the league, when the reality is much different. The problem is GRR was not born as a project for the development of Asian rugby, with a deep study about Asian rugby issues. At this moment, it is a project for the Western Force survive, without any interest from Japan (at least not now). You'll insist it is a big plan of development, but we don't have any sources that shows such project. It can become a proper development project? Yes, but only if it is down to Earth. Mad quick expansion is not the best way to achieve sustainable growth in such environment.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 33
Joined: Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 10:39
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Tiernster » Mon, 30 Dec 2019, 23:46

I should have been clearer. I don't mean to compete financially. I mean to be able to have a squad that can compete in both (without losing ground in the other), if you achieve thst the possibility is there to eventually compete

User avatar
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 11:27
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby ihateblazers » Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 00:14

Tiernster wrote:I should have been clearer. I don't mean to compete financially. I mean to be able to have a squad that can compete in both (without losing ground in the other), if you achieve thst the possibility is there to eventually compete


I think the EPCR's failure to attract the sponsorship they expected for the main 2 cups curtailed their plans for the Continental shield to a certain extent.

If they were to contract the champions cup and expand the challenge cup to include more t2 teams maybe it would be more appealing. I also wonder why they have not lobbied the 6 nation's unions to create a proper European championship as that would have a knock on effect for club European rugby. It's a shame we didn't see the French plans for a proper an all inclusive European Rugby federation come to fruition.

Online
Posts: 6131
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby victorsra » Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 14:12

About this question of development vs quick professionalism, Rugby India has been discussing this. Interesting: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 747237.cms
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Tobar » Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 20:35

victorsra wrote:About this question of development vs quick professionalism, Rugby India has been discussing this. Interesting: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 747237.cms


World Rugby certainly wants them to succeed, at least based on the amount of visits they make to the country to promote the sport.

I am curious how many Indians in rugby countries play the sport. The UK and South Africa have the most at around 1.8 and 1.5 million Indians each followed by Australia (500k), Fiji (300k) and New Zealand (200k). These numbers don’t say how old the people are or whether or not they were born in India.

Regardless, you’d have to imagine that there are a decent amount of Indians in these countries who have at least touched a rugby ball at some point. If I’m not mistaken, many Indians are 1st or 2nd generation and may have closer ties to India. One of my friends is a first generation Indian-Brit and played rugby, so there’s at least one!

Posts: 135
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 21:11

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:About this question of development vs quick professionalism, Rugby India has been discussing this. Interesting: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 747237.cms


World Rugby certainly wants them to succeed, at least based on the amount of visits they make to the country to promote the sport.

I am curious how many Indians in rugby countries play the sport. The UK and South Africa have the most at around 1.8 and 1.5 million Indians each followed by Australia (500k), Fiji (300k) and New Zealand (200k). These numbers don’t say how old the people are or whether or not they were born in India.

Regardless, you’d have to imagine that there are a decent amount of Indians in these countries who have at least touched a rugby ball at some point. If I’m not mistaken, many Indians are 1st or 2nd generation and may have closer ties to India. One of my friends is a first generation Indian-Brit and played rugby, so there’s at least one!


I know one. In a town with more Indians there could be more than one. Playing rugby is not something most Indians would do. The guy I know is very English and is married to a white lady. An Indian who wants to integrate into English society rather than stay in the Indian community might play rugby. The Indian community are into cricket.

Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Tobar » Tue, 31 Dec 2019, 22:07

Yeah, I meant to mention that - the people that have the closest ties to Indian communities play cricket rather than rugby. Hell, I see loads of kids playing cricket in my neighborhood in Queens. But I figure there have to be some Indians in these countries who play rugby. Though any country that builds their national team solely off of foreign based players isn’t really a strong program, unless of course they can get some of that knowledge and expertise over to the locals.

Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 01 Jan 2020, 00:04

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:About this question of development vs quick professionalism, Rugby India has been discussing this. Interesting: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 747237.cms


World Rugby certainly wants them to succeed, at least based on the amount of visits they make to the country to promote the sport.

I am curious how many Indians in rugby countries play the sport. The UK and South Africa have the most at around 1.8 and 1.5 million Indians each followed by Australia (500k), Fiji (300k) and New Zealand (200k). These numbers don’t say how old the people are or whether or not they were born in India.

Regardless, you’d have to imagine that there are a decent amount of Indians in these countries who have at least touched a rugby ball at some point. If I’m not mistaken, many Indians are 1st or 2nd generation and may have closer ties to India. One of my friends is a first generation Indian-Brit and played rugby, so there’s at least one!


I've known a few actually. Mostly through schools Rugby. Also, usually in selective schools (I don't know the equivalent in the States or UK but you have to actually pass a bunch of tests and have a consistently high level of academic performance to be able to go to one of these schools) where there tends to be a lot of kids of Asian/South Asian background.

Though, my club/representative teams fullback was Indian. Great player. Quick and tough as nails. Injury ended his Rugby journey.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], victorsra and 10 guests