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Continental Club Rugby League

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 09:06

There are 8-10 regular Spanish national team players in both Valladolid clubs. Plus some interesting foreign players like Juan Pablo Socino (currently injured) or Hansie Graaff (just returned from Bayonne).

Both teams attract the healthiest crowds in Spain. Unfortunately they don't release official numbers for every game, but I'd expect around 1,000 for a regular game and 3-4,000 for a big occasion like recent Cup semifinals doubleheader:
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Their facilities are probably the best in the country. Campos de Pepe Rojo are in the outskirts of Valladolid (probably their main flaw, as you need a car to reach them) but have been expanded regularly. There are now like 5 or 6 rugby fields, a media tower and press room, four locker rooms, gym, bar and food truck, lots of parking... They host Spanish underage tournaments every year, often clashing with league finals or semifinals. You may think it's tiny, but it really means a big capacity as we're talking about dozens of teams plus the senior requirements all of them at the same time.

Regarding coaching and strength and conditioning it can always be improved, but there is people right at the top of Spanish rugby there. Their coaches are the most decorated in the country, their clubs receive regular foreign assistance (Mario Barandiaran helps VRAC, El Salvador coach often visits NZ or was recently visited by Aaron Good) and some of their staff is part of national team (VRAC forwards coach, El Salvador S&C woman) as long as FER doesn't offer central contracts to national team players.

I mean, we would probably be destroyed in Challenge Cup anyway, but a mixed Valladolid team is the best, easiest, cheapest and most marketable serious proposal we could offer.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Adamstown 7's » Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 11:56

iul wrote:
dans wrote::)....In the business world Renault comes in Romania, buys Dacia and makes the brand ok-ish in Europe rather than selling all their output into East Asia.
In rugby terms we cannot see Dragons moving to Bucharest :)...but yes maybe move a Romanian franchise in Newport by share ownershipand and start producing a reduced number of players and coaches...I think the cost would be easy double that...+ the politics that go with it on both sides!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ugby-union
Dragons were losing 800k a few years ago. Surely that could be reduced by a bit.
It would make sense IMO to do something like this. Maybe they could get Dacia to sponsor the team. They already do sponsor league in England.

Adamstown 7's wrote:
I really can't see that working out well for Welsh Rugby. The Ospreys are struggling anyway, they probably won't win a game if they had 15 Romanians in the squad. A working relationship will be helpful, but Romania needs to create it's own Rugby climate imo.

15 players in a 45 man squad wouldn't be that disastruous for them IMO.


Fair, but that's 15 young Welsh players that are missing out on Rugby at this level then. If I was Welsh I would probably prefer to see some young local players in this position to be honest.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 12:45

Adamstown 7's wrote:
iul wrote:
dans wrote::)....In the business world Renault comes in Romania, buys Dacia and makes the brand ok-ish in Europe rather than selling all their output into East Asia.
In rugby terms we cannot see Dragons moving to Bucharest :)...but yes maybe move a Romanian franchise in Newport by share ownershipand and start producing a reduced number of players and coaches...I think the cost would be easy double that...+ the politics that go with it on both sides!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ugby-union
Dragons were losing 800k a few years ago. Surely that could be reduced by a bit.
It would make sense IMO to do something like this. Maybe they could get Dacia to sponsor the team. They already do sponsor league in England.

Adamstown 7's wrote:
I really can't see that working out well for Welsh Rugby. The Ospreys are struggling anyway, they probably won't win a game if they had 15 Romanians in the squad. A working relationship will be helpful, but Romania needs to create it's own Rugby climate imo.

15 players in a 45 man squad wouldn't be that disastruous for them IMO.


Fair, but that's 15 young Welsh players that are missing out on Rugby at this level then. If I was Welsh I would probably prefer to see some young local players in this position to be honest.


I would like to see the Dragons playing in the English Championship. Move their Wales players over to the other Welsh Pro 14 teams to give them a bit more depth.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 15:15

Confirmation that it's VRAC Quesos Entrepinares the club seriously considering a Challenge Cup bid:
https://twitter.com/TetoTorres68/status ... 5212550147

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby dans » Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 16:10

iul wrote:
dans wrote::)....In the business world Renault comes in Romania, buys Dacia and makes the brand ok-ish in Europe rather than selling all their output into East Asia.
In rugby terms we cannot see Dragons moving to Bucharest :)...but yes maybe move a Romanian franchise in Newport by share ownershipand and start producing a reduced number of players and coaches...I think the cost would be easy double that...+ the politics that go with it on both sides!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ugby-union
Dragons were losing 800k a few years ago. Surely that could be reduced by a bit.
It would make sense IMO to do something like this. Maybe they could get Dacia to sponsor the team. They already do sponsor league in England.


The idea could stand if it would run for a number of years. From a FRR perspective it would mean 'placing all eggs in one basket' at that cost, then we wouldneed to talk leverage and guarantees for your investment.
Dacia supporting such a project would be even better...! And it doesn’t have to happen in Wales...Do you know of somebody who does ...or have done that?... or even remotely similar...in any sport.
Nevertheless i think there is a regulation that covers ownership of clubs to control for moral hazard...imagine Timisoara Saracens having to play a Dragons team where the romanian union has an interest...
I think we arrive at your other suggestions around internal development from within and maybe some form of partnership with the help of a major sponsor

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 17:34

I don't really see the point of this. Romania is in Europe. If you want to have a Romanian team playing in the Pro 14, just do that. Why make players move away from home? Let them be based in Bucharest.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 20:07

Armchair Fan wrote:Confirmation that it's VRAC Quesos Entrepinares the club seriously considering a Challenge Cup bid:
https://twitter.com/TetoTorres68/status ... 5212550147


Cheesy name for a club :P
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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Vultureblack » Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 21:35

Hi everybody,
What about the rumor that the European League was just killed? Established powers would not have it.
Does anybody know more? Or that there is still hope.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 23:18

Vultureblack wrote:Hi everybody,
What about the rumor that the European League was just killed? Established powers would not have it.
Does anybody know more? Or that there is still hope.


What power would they have to kill it?

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 23:35

The league currently includes 4 Russian teams, 3 Romanian and one German. I don't know of any reason why anyone would object to this league.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 23:52

Chester-Donnelly wrote:The league currently includes 4 Russian teams, 3 Romanian and one German. I don't know of any reason why anyone would object to this league.


Even if they did I'd like to know what conceivable power they may hold to be able to do anything about it? It's not like they need anyone to sanction it other than World Rugby and I cannot see WR looking at this as anything but a huge win. And even then. Sanctioning isn't an absolute requirement. So how would any of the 'powers' be able to kill this off? The only way this league doesn't go ahead is if those involved opt not to as far as I know.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby armchair_expert » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 20:23

Is the Saracens-Timisoara partnership still active?
I wonder if it would be possible for the London Saracens to participate in the next season's EPCR Challenge Cup under the brand of Timisoara Saracens (apparently EPCR should send a pre-invitation to Romanian clubs too).

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby amz » Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 13:56

armchair_expert wrote:Is the Saracens-Timisoara partnership still active?
I wonder if it would be possible for the London Saracens to participate in the next season's EPCR Challenge Cup under the brand of Timisoara Saracens (apparently EPCR should send a pre-invitation to Romanian clubs too).


Grounded on what exactly? Saracens will be relegated, they will not have the right to participate in EPCR because of relegation. This relegation was dictated by a RFU panel and accepted by the club. Wouldn't this be blatant cheating, to have them in EPCR Challenge Cup under a different brand?

How would you have like it to have Romania still qualified to RWC with a different, international flag, after panel's decision? How would that have looked?

You're so quick in overlooking Saracens' infringements yet I remember you babbling around in 2018 about Romania "cheating cheating cheating refs corruption", you were very vocal. Now you look for ways to cheat a decision by a T1 club which speaks volumes about how precarious your moral values are.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby armchair_expert » Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 16:04

amz wrote:You're so quick in overlooking Saracens' infringements yet I remember you babbling around in 2018 about Romania "cheating cheating cheating refs corruption", you were very vocal. Now you look for ways to cheat a decision by a T1 club which speaks volumes about how precarious your moral values are.

m8 u should stop drinking it really does no good to your brain

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby amz » Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 16:41

armchair_expert wrote:
amz wrote:You're so quick in overlooking Saracens' infringements yet I remember you babbling around in 2018 about Romania "cheating cheating cheating refs corruption", you were very vocal. Now you look for ways to cheat a decision by a T1 club which speaks volumes about how precarious your moral values are.

m8 u should stop drinking it really does no good to your brain

you confuse me with someone else.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Vova12 » Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 17:34

He confused you with me! :D
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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 19:26

Saracens are finished. Nigel Wray has left rugby. He has given his shares to his children. They want to sell their shares. It's over, and no one in England or in rugby has any sympathy for Nigel Wray or Saracens. I have a bit of sympathy for his children, with their father wasting so much of their inheritance.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby TheStroBro » Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 21:04

armchair_expert wrote:Is the Saracens-Timisoara partnership still active?
I wonder if it would be possible for the London Saracens to participate in the next season's EPCR Challenge Cup under the brand of Timisoara Saracens (apparently EPCR should send a pre-invitation to Romanian clubs too).


Most of the clubs in the Saracens Global network received fairly little for their affiliation. Sometimes they'd get match tickets if any of the club officials happened to be in England. But not much beyond that.

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Saracens are finished. Nigel Wray has left rugby. He has given his shares to his children. They want to sell their shares. It's over, and no one in England or in rugby has any sympathy for Nigel Wray or Saracens. I have a bit of sympathy for his children, with their father wasting so much of their inheritance.


Gonna need a source for that one.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 21:21

Here's the article. However, having read the article I am less certain about his children's intentions than I was after just seeing the headline

https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.u ... 8015%3famp

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby ihateblazers » Tue, 21 Jan 2020, 01:41

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Saracens are finished. Nigel Wray has left rugby. He has given his shares to his children. They want to sell their shares. It's over, and no one in England or in rugby has any sympathy for Nigel Wray or Saracens. I have a bit of sympathy for his children, with their father wasting so much of their inheritance.


Yeah, I can't see them coming back from this and I say good riddance. It speaks volumes that they haven't been able to build a fan base with all their success; be it in the stadium or around the country in the way that Leicester, Wasps in the 2000's or even Bath in the 90's were able to. Their god awful brand probably has something to do with it. The fez hat thing and funny finger is cute but it's almost ironically offensive which i don't think appeals to many people, especially in a metropolitan city like London.

They won't be able to challenge in the premiership any time soon with club generated funds and they will probably become a yoyo club, i can't see another investor or benefactor stepping in because to be honest what potential do they really have, none as we've seen with their success. Hopefully Saracens capitulate, they lose their premiership shares and their RFU academy funding. Better off having a club like Blackheath rise to the top as a north/east london representative.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 21 Jan 2020, 05:50

London Irish are moving back to London. And Ealing have a big money backer. I do think Saracens will disappear from the Premiership for good and someone will replace them as London's number 2 club. London's number 1 club is Harlequins. Saracens bought players and trophies and some fans, but you can't buy loyalty. Saracens don't come close to established clubs like Bath, Gloucester, Northampton, Leicester and Harlequins.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 21 Jan 2020, 08:59

ihateblazers wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:Saracens are finished. Nigel Wray has left rugby. He has given his shares to his children. They want to sell their shares. It's over, and no one in England or in rugby has any sympathy for Nigel Wray or Saracens. I have a bit of sympathy for his children, with their father wasting so much of their inheritance.


Yeah, I can't see them coming back from this and I say good riddance. It speaks volumes that they haven't been able to build a fan base with all their success; be it in the stadium or around the country in the way that Leicester, Wasps in the 2000's or even Bath in the 90's were able to. Their god awful brand probably has something to do with it. The fez hat thing and funny finger is cute but it's almost ironically offensive which i don't think appeals to many people, especially in a metropolitan city like London.

They won't be able to challenge in the premiership any time soon with club generated funds and they will probably become a yoyo club, i can't see another investor or benefactor stepping in because to be honest what potential do they really have, none as we've seen with their success. Hopefully Saracens capitulate, they lose their premiership shares and their RFU academy funding. Better off having a club like Blackheath rise to the top as a north/east london representative.


I agree, it is a strange brand which is not politically correct, and could be considered racist. Now, if they were linked to Muslim communities the brand could be a positive, but I don't believe there is any link there.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Canalina » Tue, 21 Jan 2020, 09:18

Apparently there was no offense at all in those name and symbol

from Wikipedia: Saracens were founded in 1876 by the Old Boys of the Philological School in Marylebone, London (later to become St Marylebone Grammar School). The club's name is said to come from the "endurance, enthusiasm and perceived invincibility of Saladin's desert warriors of the 12th century". The fact that their local rivals were called the Crusaders may also have been a factor. The Crescent and Star appearing in the club's emblem are reminiscent of those appearing on the flag of the Ottoman Empire.

Names like Pirates or, indeed, Crusaders or even Harlequins sound more "politically incorrect" to me (but I don't want them changed)

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 21 Jan 2020, 09:51

Canalina wrote:Apparently there was no offense at all in those name and symbol

from Wikipedia: Saracens were founded in 1876 by the Old Boys of the Philological School in Marylebone, London (later to become St Marylebone Grammar School). The club's name is said to come from the "endurance, enthusiasm and perceived invincibility of Saladin's desert warriors of the 12th century". The fact that their local rivals were called the Crusaders may also have been a factor. The Crescent and Star appearing in the club's emblem are reminiscent of those appearing on the flag of the Ottoman Empire.

Names like Pirates or, indeed, Crusaders or even Harlequins sound more "politically incorrect" to me (but I don't want them changed)


Crusaders is politically incorrect. Probably moreso than Saracens. I have never actually heard anyone complain about the name and logo of Saracens, but people do complain about Crusaders. If the Chiefs were in North America they would be politically incorrect, but there are not many native Americans in Devon to be offended. Pirates are not politically incorrect because no one is identifying as a pirate or saying that pirates are good. Regarding Saracens, I guess it is up to Muslims to let it be known if they are offended. If they were we would know about it; when they are offended they get really offended and pretty aggressive, so it's obviously fine.

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Re: Continental Club Rugby League

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 22 Jan 2020, 11:59

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Canalina wrote:Apparently there was no offense at all in those name and symbol

from Wikipedia: Saracens were founded in 1876 by the Old Boys of the Philological School in Marylebone, London (later to become St Marylebone Grammar School). The club's name is said to come from the "endurance, enthusiasm and perceived invincibility of Saladin's desert warriors of the 12th century". The fact that their local rivals were called the Crusaders may also have been a factor. The Crescent and Star appearing in the club's emblem are reminiscent of those appearing on the flag of the Ottoman Empire.

Names like Pirates or, indeed, Crusaders or even Harlequins sound more "politically incorrect" to me (but I don't want them changed)


Crusaders is politically incorrect. Probably moreso than Saracens. I have never actually heard anyone complain about the name and logo of Saracens, but people do complain about Crusaders. If the Chiefs were in North America they would be politically incorrect, but there are not many native Americans in Devon to be offended. Pirates are not politically incorrect because no one is identifying as a pirate or saying that pirates are good. Regarding Saracens, I guess it is up to Muslims to let it be known if they are offended. If they were we would know about it; when they are offended they get really offended and pretty aggressive, so it's obviously fine.


I have asked my Muslim friend about this. He explained they only get offended regarding their religion. The crescent moon and star is not a religious symbol. The name Saracens and the logo is not offensive.

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