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7s Challenger Series

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Canalina » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 15:05

I'm not saying it was a failure, it wasn't; but if you want you may find criticizing points everywhere. Pichot criticized a lot of WR events, he blamed even the ranking (defining it "a farce" or "a joke" or something similar) because Ireland was ahead of New Zealand or something like that.
Referees apart (the judgement about their performance is subjective), you could say that the Challenger Series was not a success because of the very scarce spectators and that it was not a success because just one tv channel (ESPN SudAmerica), as far as I know, bought the rights.
I repeat, I'm not really saying it was not a success, it's just that it's bit perplexing when you see an all-criticizing man suddenly starting to judge the things "a total success" when an event is organized by him

PS: to note that he mentions Caribbean and Germany as possible new stages of the Challenger, if I heard correctly his words

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Hernan14 » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 15:44

Canalina wrote:
Hernan14 wrote:
Canalina wrote:My feeling too was that referees were generally a bit uncertain and not world level in this Challenger series

During Italy v Tonga a dangerous tackle with a 180° turn and a landing of the player on his head, to be possibly sanctioned with a red card, was seen by the referee (and probably by the side assistant) but without taking any decision beyond the simple whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be2ijhU ... u.be&t=710


Look at 0.25 speed ... at most yellow.

Hmm, not agree. I confess that I don't know what exactly the rule says, but also in the italian championship when a player overturns an opponent over the line of the chest or even by 180° like in this case, and without trying to alleviate the effects of the tackle helping the opponent to land safely, it's at least a yellow card. At the World Cup italian Lovotti overturned a southafrican player letting him landing on the head and got a deserved red card, plus three weeks suspension. I admit that probably the tongan fault in Montevideo was not voluntary, but usually in this sort of cases the referees show a card even if the fault seems involuntary. I still think it should have been a red card


I don't know where you've played rugby, but at least here the body position of the tackler is taken into account, if he is totally standing and if he releases it or not in the air, and how the tackling player falls to the floor. Here, the tackler is semi standing, never releasing it, the player does not touch his head against the floor (although then he exaggerates and stays touching the back of his neck) and falls on his arms ... as I said, penalty, and at most yellow, but not all situations are always the same, there are many factors.

Comparing the stupidity that Lovotti did is totally wrong, Lovotti and his partner acted after the referee stopped the game, they, fully standing, lifted Vermeulen only to throw him on the floor and even, especially Lovotti dropped all their weight trying to increase the damage to be infringed, with total bad intention.

Totally different from the play against Tonga :thumbup:

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Hernan14 » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 15:57

Canalina wrote:I'm not saying it was a failure, it wasn't; but if you want you may find criticizing points everywhere. Pichot criticized a lot of WR events, he blamed even the ranking (defining it "a farce" or "a joke" or something similar) because Ireland was ahead of New Zealand or something like that.
Referees apart (the judgement about their performance is subjective), you could say that the Challenger Series was not a success because of the very scarce spectators and that it was not a success because just one tv channel (ESPN SudAmerica), as far as I know, bought the rights.
I repeat, I'm not really saying it was not a success, it's just that it's bit perplexing when you see an all-criticizing man suddenly starting to judge the things "a total success" when an event is organized by him

PS: to note that he mentions Caribbean and Germany as possible new stages of the Challenger, if I heard correctly his words


Clearly you don't undestand spanish very well. At no time he mention the Caribbean or Germany as possible new stages of the challenger.

He speak in all moment about the "success" of the Challenger because give the possibility to the teams of over the world to play in it, with countries that cannot "show up" regularly (that's when he mentions that he talked to people from the Caribbean, mentioned him the problems they have to compete reguraly) and that the Challenger as a platform for that, more competitions to not traditional teams.

"we have just started to develop it, but hopefully many more tournaments can be made all over the world", "Without competitions the players can't develop, can't compete and can't grow"

He doesn't speak of Challenger per se, he speaks at all times of that possibility of new countries competing regularly, that is the success he mentions.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 16:09

To me the Challenger was indeed a total success. From the venues to the production value, everything. So you were expecting a big crowd turn out for the event but we're not content with the 4k that showed up to Viña and the 2k that made it to Montevideo? Do you really expect huge crowds with Japan as the main attraction? Let that sink in for a moment. It's foolish.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 17:58

Pichulonko wrote:To me the Challenger was indeed a total success. From the venues to the production value, everything. So you were expecting a big crowd turn out for the event but we're not content with the 4k that showed up to Viña and the 2k that made it to Montevideo? Do you really expect huge crowds with Japan as the main attraction? Let that sink in for a moment. It's foolish.


I completely agree with you, and I am looking forward to watching the Nations Cup in Montevideo in July on YouTube.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 22:21

It's Carnival week, many people leave to coastal towns (like myself). The tournament should have been played in Punta del Este. But of course the URU doesn't want to rent a stadium when they control one.

Crowd were poor, but that's not the main goal of the Sevens Challenger Series. The goal is to increase opportunities to tier 2 unions. There were plenty of upsets.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Canalina » Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 06:28

But it must be economically sustainable. To plan a tournament with a lot of teams from all the corners of the world is simple, but someone have to pay for it. Also the Continental Shield in Europe was a precious source of games between T2 clubs, but it was called off after some editions due to lack of media interest and spectators. Also the Africa Cup with a six-nations-formula was interesting, but they had to call it off and to choice a less interesting and more simple and economic formula. Even the Serendib Cup in Sri Lanka, some years ago, or the Fraternity Cup in Malaysia gathered national teams (XVs) from different continents, but they lasted just one edition (I think) due to lack of tv/spectators. Just to say
To call 16 teams for two weeks in South America (I suppose most of the teams remained in the area after the Vina tournament) is a good idea but it has costs and considering the very scarce crowd and the one only tv channel I doubt the costs have been repaid; so I think this is an economic loss for World Rugby.
I repeat: I have nothing against this series, I like it, it's just that every time World Rugby organize something I heard the eternal mantra: "oh, what a joke!", "oh, what a farce!". This time we knew that the series was an idea of the "rebel" of World Rugby and suddenly the tournament was no more a joke or a farce, but an "exito total !". :|
I just don't like this double standard.

- about the Pichot words on the new stages, sorry to have misinterpreted them

- about the episode during Italy v Tonga, I asked for an opinion in my italian forum and the only answer received said "surely red". The head of the italian player touches the ground. Every time I've seen a tackle with this dynamic it was at least a yellow card, but usually a red card

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 08:29

My intention was never to take something away from Chile. I was honestly asking questions how this should be ref-ed as I was stunned (and even more after I watched the replays) Hence why I asked how you should play that in this kind of situation.

Hernan14 wrote:Can anyone mark the play situations, but with the Canalina's link? The other doesn't work here, to at least know if we observe the same game actions...the last one is penalty to me, but, I don't know if is the same game situation :oops:


Two options.
a)Just use the number at the end of the video link. That's the time stamp.
b) When you answer you will definitely see the complete link. Copy it from there.

DragonMike wrote:Overall there were a huge number of ruck penalties (and turnovers) in the game. I noticed Chile competed much less hard at the breakdown overall and benefited from that. In the final sequence Gemrany gave away I think 3-4 penalties.


ALL those scenes are from the final play ;)


On a side note.
I really, really hate this kind of snake seeding. A seeding should make sure, that (given that both teams stay unbeaten) they don't meet again at the same stage in the same tournament. It is also extremely inconsistent, when suddenly 1 vs 3 play in the semi, when according to snake it should be 1 vs. 4 and 2 vs. 3.

It didn't matter as Germany got beaten in the quarters, but that doesn't change, that this format sucks.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Pichulonko » Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 17:28

The sole purpose of snake seeding is to set up pool play for the next leg and nothing else. How the tournament develops is a completely different thing. For instance it was predetermined even before there was a champion in Viña del Mar that the winner of Pool A in Montevideo would play whoever came in second in Pool D. Those two teams just happened to be Germany and Chile but it could have been Uruguay playing Chile or even Portugal.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 17:33

Some stats:

* Germany defeated Japan, Hong Kong and Uruguay.
* Chile defeated Germany, Tonga and Zimbabwe.
* Uruguay defeated Hong Kong, Tonga and Italy.
* Tonga defeated Uruguay, Chile, Uganda and Zimbabwe.
* Uganda defeated PNG, Zimbabwe and Italy.
* Italy defeated Tonga, Zimbabwe and Colombia.
* Zimbabwe defeated PNG and Colombia.
* Jamaica defeated Uganda, Portugal and Colombia.
* Papua New Guinea defeated Jamaica, Portugal and Colombia.
* Mexico defeated PNG.
* Portugal defeated Colombia and Mexico.
* Colombia and Paraguay defeated Mexico.
* Brazil claimed no wins.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 27 Feb 2020, 07:37

NaBUru38 wrote:Some stats:

* Germany defeated Japan, Hong Kong and Uruguay.
* Chile defeated Germany, Tonga and Zimbabwe.
* Uruguay defeated Hong Kong, Tonga and Italy.
* Tonga defeated Uruguay, Chile, Uganda and Zimbabwe.
* Uganda defeated PNG, Zimbabwe and Italy.
* Italy defeated Tonga, Zimbabwe and Colombia.
* Zimbabwe defeated PNG and Colombia.
* Jamaica defeated Uganda, Portugal and Colombia.
* Papua New Guinea defeated Jamaica, Portugal and Colombia.
* Mexico defeated PNG.
* Portugal defeated Colombia and Mexico.
* Colombia and Paraguay defeated Mexico.
* Brazil claimed no wins.


This makes no sense, when you only list three beaten teams for the best team, but all of them for the other teams.
Germany defeated Japan, HK, Uruguay (2), PNG (2), Italy (2), Uganda, Jamaica, Paraguay and Mexico
What would make more sense for the top teams is a win-lose ratio.

Japan is 11 wins and 1 loss (Germany)
HK is 10 wins and 2 losses (Germany, Uruguay)
Germany is 11 wins and 1 loss (Chile)
etc.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 27 Feb 2020, 08:14

Pichulonko wrote:The sole purpose of snake seeding is to set up pool play for the next leg and nothing else. How the tournament develops is a completely different thing. For instance it was predetermined even before there was a champion in Viña del Mar that the winner of Pool A in Montevideo would play whoever came in second in Pool D. Those two teams just happened to be Germany and Chile but it could have been Uruguay playing Chile or even Portugal.


You don't get it. No teams happen to be somewhere. The best teams have a certain pattern where they meet each other again, if they stay unbeaten off course.

The winner of group A will always meet the winner of group C in the semi-finals and that's a problem. As the group C winner is the third ranked team of the first tournament it can happen that the best two teams of the Series always meet again in the semis. And if Germany wouldn't have that one loss of the tournament against Chile, this would have happened. In the Challenger Series this has lead to a significant tougher Japan/Germany side of the competition.

All I was saying is, that the third ranked team should not play the first ranked team in the semis. So have a A1-D1, B1-C1 pattern instead of A1-C1, B1-D1 as they organized it.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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