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7s Challenger Series

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Canalina » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:41

I liked this italian try; useless for the final result and the ranking, tough

https://youtu.be/eM6V54tnHa0?t=440

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 08:30

Canalina wrote:I liked this italian try; useless for the final result and the ranking, tough

https://youtu.be/eM6V54tnHa0?t=440


Nice one.

A thing I recognized was that the ref were extremely strict with the tackler in rucks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM6V54t ... u.be&t=765

Jon Dawe clearly gets up, releases and than goes for the cleaning. In my opinion, that's simply World Series material, but he got penalized a lot for that (especially in the Chile game, were him and Sorteras Merz looked actually frustrated after three (!) such calls in a row.

Dawe is clearly not the first tackler, pushes the player down, releases, goes successfully for the ball and gets penalized
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7615

Next play. Dawe first in the ruck, goes for the ball, ref tells him to release
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7653

Another 10 seconds later: Sorteras Merz 100% (as you can see in the link) releases and goes for the ball. Again the ref tells him to let it go.
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7667

Thoughts about this calls? Is this a problem of ref quality or of Germany not adapting to the ref? How can you defend this better?
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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby victorsra » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 13:56

germanbullsfan wrote:A very bad spectator average in Chile in the last three decades , how much attendancy was in the stadium in Vina? 350 -500 ? A shame for such a so called long established tournament! Hope the Urus show up in larger numbers!

Why "so called"? It is traditional. They have even hosted the main series in the past.
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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby DragonMike » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 16:51

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Canalina wrote:I liked this italian try; useless for the final result and the ranking, tough

https://youtu.be/eM6V54tnHa0?t=440


Nice one.

A thing I recognized was that the ref were extremely strict with the tackler in rucks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM6V54t ... u.be&t=765

Jon Dawe clearly gets up, releases and than goes for the cleaning. In my opinion, that's simply World Series material, but he got penalized a lot for that (especially in the Chile game, were him and Sorteras Merz looked actually frustrated after three (!) such calls in a row.

Dawe is clearly not the first tackler, pushes the player down, releases, goes successfully for the ball and gets penalized
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7615

Next play. Dawe first in the ruck, goes for the ball, ref tells him to release
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7653

Another 10 seconds later: Sorteras Merz 100% (as you can see in the link) releases and goes for the ball. Again the ref tells him to let it go.
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7667

Thoughts about this calls? Is this a problem of ref quality or of Germany not adapting to the ref? How can you defend this better?


Overall, i through the ref was actually fairly consistent, have re-watched and there were a lot of ruck penalties. All turnovers came from very clean latching on the ball. Probably only Merz, the crucial one, seemed off to me, but I guess maybe the ref got nervous right at the end, sometimes I guess they dont want make big calls.

But Dawe attempted turnovers were definitely correct from the ref for me, Merz was very unlucky but that might also be one of those momentum issues with a ref seeing it wrong at the third time in a row.

Overall there were a huge number of ruck penalties (and turnovers) in the game. I noticed Chile competed much less hard at the breakdown overall and benefited from that. In the final sequence Gemrany gave away I think 3-4 penalties.

1. joined ruck jointly with defender got thee hands on but lost contact to ball, then slapped it backwards with a second go at the ball
2. jointed jointly with defender, ref was clear on that the whole game
3. Merz had a turnover, cant understand the refs view there

Overall Germany seemed a little nervous, but I guess in some ways it was basically their final so understandable. They lacked penetration, the deep charges didn't often get the ball unlike other games, lots of one up running, and the defence became very passive, and Chile just kept going sideways but still caused trouble and got breaks. I can imagine the team have a bit of mental hurdle to overcome after coming so close so often. Hopefully WR see sense and try to arrange final quali tournament to let things happen on an even playing field. Japan have been given too many advantages, and Germany are probably the better team, and would benefit more from being on the world series, I cant believe doing sevens on top of the WR impact will make much difference in Japan.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Rumpelstilzchen » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 18:24

The only clearly wrong decision for me was the last one with Soteras-Merz. But the worst thing about that situation is how he gets out of there complaining to the ref instead of focusing on the game. This cost the team in the end. After reading and hearing some of the comments from coaches and management I think there is a wrong mindset in the team altogether. It's never their fault, always World Rugby, the ref, Japan etc. Comlaining won't help anything, they have to play better if they want to make it to the World Series.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby mulu » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 18:38

Rumpelstilzchen wrote:The only clearly wrong decision for me was the last one with Soteras-Merz. But the worst thing about that situation is how he gets out of there complaining to the ref instead of focusing on the game. This cost the team in the end. After reading and hearing some of the comments from coaches and management I think there is a wrong mindset in the team altogether. It's never their fault, always World Rugby, the ref, Japan etc. Comlaining won't help anything, they have to play better if they want to make it to the World Series.


Sorry but you are absolutely wrong on this. There were seven wrong calls and the ref and the referee manager admitted it. It goes as far as this might be the reason why there now will be a third tournament.

Apart from the breakdowns (there were two more turnover by Fromm not awarded) there was a line out call after a kick off where Merz didn’t touch the ball, a double role bei Chile, a clear side entry and a block against Lichtenberg at kickoff. 7s is a game of momentum and this calls were crucial. But I’m happy if you guys come to the conclusion that we are only complaining and simply not good enough. I agree that if we had played better, converted the last try or hadn’t kicked into touch we most likely would have won the game.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Canalina » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 18:52

My feeling too was that referees were generally a bit uncertain and not world level in this Challenger series

During Italy v Tonga a dangerous tackle with a 180° turn and a landing of the player on his head, to be possibly sanctioned with a red card, was seen by the referee (and probably by the side assistant) but without taking any decision beyond the simple whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be2ijhU ... u.be&t=710

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby mulu » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 19:11

Canalina wrote:My feeling too was that referees were generally a bit uncertain and not world level in this Challenger series

During Italy v Tonga a dangerous tackle with a 180° turn and a landing of the player on his head, to be possibly sanctioned with a red card, was seen by the referee (and probably by the side assistant) but without taking any decision beyond the simple whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be2ijhU ... u.be&t=710


that’s exactly world rugby’s narrative, they are saying the refs were good enough for a pre-qualifier but not good enough for a qualifier.

maybe you can recall the red card v italy or the maul by japan v germany in the first tournament. both missed by the same ref who was in charge of germany v chile.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 20:05

First of all Merz did not have a turnover, He was never able to get his hands on the ball then the ruck was quickly formed and the ref told him to get off and allow play. Simple as that.

Also to say that Germany is better than Japan is absurd. They just proved they are the better side of the bunch winning the Challenger.

Perhaps you overestimate Germany where they have proven time and time again that they're simply not good enough. Not yet at least.
Last edited by Pichulonko on Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 20:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby mulu » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 20:13

Pichulonko wrote:Merz did not have a turnover, ruck was formed and the ref told him to get off and allow play. Simple as that.


wrong, the ref (and his manager) said Merz (&Fromm) were to quick for him and that the ref is still learning the game at this pace.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 20:17

mulu wrote:
Pichulonko wrote:Merz did not have a turnover, ruck was formed and the ref told him to get off and allow play. Simple as that.


wrong, the ref (and his manager) said Merz (&Fromm) were to quick for him and that the ref is still learning the game at this pace.

Doesn't matter who said what. The video is the proof for anyone to see. Ruck gets formed you get your hands off. That's the first thing we are taught about counter rucking when we are in school.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby mulu » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 20:21

Pichulonko wrote:
mulu wrote:
Pichulonko wrote:Merz did not have a turnover, ruck was formed and the ref told him to get off and allow play. Simple as that.


wrong, the ref (and his manager) said Merz (&Fromm) were to quick for him and that the ref is still learning the game at this pace.

Doesn't matter who said what. The video is the proof for anyone to see. Ruck gets formed you get your hands off. That's the first thing we are taught about counter rucking when we are in school.


ok you know better than the ref and the wr referee manager.

let’s park it. chile (you) won and we lost. life goes on :)

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 20:31

I'm sorry but you're the one complaining about an alleged none call not me. And after playing rugby for 25 years I would say that I know a little bit so analyzing a play comes very natural to me.

Fact of the matter is that Germany was outplayed and outcoached by Chile, an amateur team.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby mulu » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 20:34

Pichulonko wrote:I'm sorry but you're the one complaining about an alleged none call not me. And after playing rugby for 25 years I would say that I know a little bit so analyzing a play comes very natural to me.

Fact of the matter is that Germany was outplayed and outcoached by Chile, an amateur team.


ok, what else can I add if you know so much better? final question: is Germany a professional team?

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Pichulonko » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 21:17

mulu wrote:
Pichulonko wrote:I'm sorry but you're the one complaining about an alleged none call not me. And after playing rugby for 25 years I would say that I know a little bit so analyzing a play comes very natural to me.

Fact of the matter is that Germany was outplayed and outcoached by Chile, an amateur team.


ok, what else can I add if you know so much better? final question: is Germany a professional team?


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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby DragonMike » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 23:17

Pichulonko wrote:
mulu wrote:
Pichulonko wrote:Merz did not have a turnover, ruck was formed and the ref told him to get off and allow play. Simple as that.


wrong, the ref (and his manager) said Merz (&Fromm) were to quick for him and that the ref is still learning the game at this pace.

Doesn't matter who said what. The video is the proof for anyone to see. Ruck gets formed you get your hands off. That's the first thing we are taught about counter rucking when we are in school.


If you have hold of the ball before the ruck is formed you don't have to let go..... that is kind of the point.... You have to let go if the ruck forms before you have hold of the ball and are pulling on it, i.e. just touching it isn't enough, the player on the floor has to be actively preventing you taking it. It's called surviving the clear out and gets talked about every week in pretty much any game...you must have heard of it in your 25 years.... like at least once you must have heard of it.... and the ref clearly tells Merz to let go even though he was first in (by a long way).

The two beforehand, It is dubious whether Dawes really beat the defender into the ruck, so based on previous form of the ref in the game blowing almost everything up at the ruck I would say an adjustment might have been possible.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby DragonMike » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 23:21

Pichulonko wrote:First of all Merz did not have a turnover, He was never able to get his hands on the ball then the ruck was quickly formed and the ref told him to get off and allow play. Simple as that.

Also to say that Germany is better than Japan is absurd. They just proved they are the better side of the bunch winning the Challenger.

Perhaps you overestimate Germany where they have proven time and time again that they're simply not good enough. Not yet at least.


Germany beat Japan last week, how is it absurd? Japan have played 4 world series tournaments in a row, Germany have a new coach, had to leave 2 players at home as they weren't released by their employer, and hadn't had proper warm up tournaments. But still won.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby mulu » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 23:53

Pichulonko wrote:
mulu wrote:
Pichulonko wrote:I'm sorry but you're the one complaining about an alleged none call not me. And after playing rugby for 25 years I would say that I know a little bit so analyzing a play comes very natural to me.

Fact of the matter is that Germany was outplayed and outcoached by Chile, an amateur team.


ok, what else can I add if you know so much better? final question: is Germany a professional team?


Image


Ok. With this comment you disqualified yourself completely, the capri sun sponorship ended two years ago and only sponsored a professional 15s team in the first place. Stick with your guns and enjoy your win. Cheers
Last edited by mulu on Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 00:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby DragonMike » Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 23:59

mulu wrote:
Rumpelstilzchen wrote:The only clearly wrong decision for me was the last one with Soteras-Merz. But the worst thing about that situation is how he gets out of there complaining to the ref instead of focusing on the game. This cost the team in the end. After reading and hearing some of the comments from coaches and management I think there is a wrong mindset in the team altogether. It's never their fault, always World Rugby, the ref, Japan etc. Comlaining won't help anything, they have to play better if they want to make it to the World Series.


Sorry but you are absolutely wrong on this. There were seven wrong calls and the ref and the referee manager admitted it. It goes as far as this might be the reason why there now will be a third tournament.

Apart from the breakdowns (there were two more turnover by Fromm not awarded) there was a line out call after a kick off where Merz didn’t touch the ball, a double role bei Chile, a clear side entry and a block against Lichtenberg at kickoff. 7s is a game of momentum and this calls were crucial. But I’m happy if you guys come to the conclusion that we are only complaining and simply not good enough. I agree that if we had played better, converted the last try or hadn’t kicked into touch we most likely would have won the game.


For sure there were a lot of wrong calls, and I think it is too much by rumplestilzchen to say the team are blaming others, probably the last 2 tries could be partly blamed on disallowed genuine turnovers by Fromm and Merz. And even on the 2nd german try the attempted slapdown by Chile on the ball pushed Lichtenberg wider and may have cost the kick so could have been given yellow.

But it wasn't just the ref. Those turnovers came 10 metres in front of the line because of little mistakes - overthrown lineouts, missed passes, genuine penalties (I counted 4 at the ruck). Chile were really poor the whole tournament inc. this game, but Germany seemed a little hectic and it got worse over the game, and the big deep runs that were opening up hinges in other games seemed to disappear, the attack went very flat. But hey, it is just one game, of course this happens all the time to any team that they have a bad 10 minutes, 20 minutes, half a day even. And bad refs re a fact of life in amateur/semi-professional sport. Just tough that Germany (and Chile and Hong Kong too) have a set of quarter finals every year that feel like they are defining a new level for German rugby if they were to be won. Probably it leads to overanalysis of small variances.

Anyway, you are much closer to this than me so maybe I am just seeing things that aren't there, but at a distance it seemed like a bad refs performance that got to the players in a pressure situation.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby mulu » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 00:33

DragonMike wrote:
mulu wrote:
Rumpelstilzchen wrote:The only clearly wrong decision for me was the last one with Soteras-Merz. But the worst thing about that situation is how he gets out of there complaining to the ref instead of focusing on the game. This cost the team in the end. After reading and hearing some of the comments from coaches and management I think there is a wrong mindset in the team altogether. It's never their fault, always World Rugby, the ref, Japan etc. Comlaining won't help anything, they have to play better if they want to make it to the World Series.


Sorry but you are absolutely wrong on this. There were seven wrong calls and the ref and the referee manager admitted it. It goes as far as this might be the reason why there now will be a third tournament.

Apart from the breakdowns (there were two more turnover by Fromm not awarded) there was a line out call after a kick off where Merz didn’t touch the ball, a double role bei Chile, a clear side entry and a block against Lichtenberg at kickoff. 7s is a game of momentum and this calls were crucial. But I’m happy if you guys come to the conclusion that we are only complaining and simply not good enough. I agree that if we had played better, converted the last try or hadn’t kicked into touch we most likely would have won the game.


For sure there were a lot of wrong calls, and I think it is too much by rumplestilzchen to say the team are blaming others, probably the last 2 tries could be partly blamed on disallowed genuine turnovers by Fromm and Merz. And even on the 2nd german try the attempted slapdown by Chile on the ball pushed Lichtenberg wider and may have cost the kick so could have been given yellow.

But it wasn't just the ref. Those turnovers came 10 metres in front of the line because of little mistakes - overthrown lineouts, missed passes, genuine penalties (I counted 4 at the ruck). Chile were really poor the whole tournament inc. this game, but Germany seemed a little hectic and it got worse over the game, and the big deep runs that were opening up hinges in other games seemed to disappear, the attack went very flat. But hey, it is just one game, of course this happens all the time to any team that they have a bad 10 minutes, 20 minutes, half a day even. And bad refs re a fact of life in amateur/semi-professional sport. Just tough that Germany (and Chile and Hong Kong too) have a set of quarter finals every year that feel like they are defining a new level for German rugby if they were to be won. Probably it leads to overanalysis of small variances.

Anyway, you are much closer to this than me so maybe I am just seeing things that aren't there, but at a distance it seemed like a bad refs performance that got to the players in a pressure situation.


100%. We played poorly and Chile has a talented team and did put in a spirited performance. We allowed them into the game and they played the ref smarter than we did.

This doesn’t take anything away from the ref being very poor. He did cost Italy the top 8 with the red card (a decision later overturned by the citing commission) in the first tournament, which led to italy being pumped by uruguay with one man down.

He missed a high and dangerous tackle v Sebi Fromm and truck & trailer (being made aware of what japan is doing with the 4 man line out before the game) in our game v Japan. He wasn’t pro Japan or against Germany, he just wasn’t up to speed for the top end of this competition.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Pichulonko » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 01:53

DragonMike wrote:
If you have hold of the ball before the ruck is formed you don't have to let go..... that is kind of the point.... You have to let go if the ruck forms before you have hold of the ball and are pulling on it, i.e. just touching it isn't enough, the player on the floor has to be actively preventing you taking it. It's called surviving the clear out and gets talked about every week in pretty much any game...you must have heard of it in your 25 years.... like at least once you must have heard of it.... and the ref clearly tells Merz to let go even though he was first in (by a long way).


That's exactly it. Merz did not get his hands on the ball. He did everything right except hold the ball to create a turnover then the ruck formed so he was told to get out of the way and allow play. Excellent non-call by the referee.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Hernan14 » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 01:58

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Canalina wrote:I liked this italian try; useless for the final result and the ranking, tough

https://youtu.be/eM6V54tnHa0?t=440


Nice one.

A thing I recognized was that the ref were extremely strict with the tackler in rucks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM6V54t ... u.be&t=765

Jon Dawe clearly gets up, releases and than goes for the cleaning. In my opinion, that's simply World Series material, but he got penalized a lot for that (especially in the Chile game, were him and Sorteras Merz looked actually frustrated after three (!) such calls in a row.

Dawe is clearly not the first tackler, pushes the player down, releases, goes successfully for the ball and gets penalized
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7615

Next play. Dawe first in the ruck, goes for the ball, ref tells him to release
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7653

Another 10 seconds later: Sorteras Merz 100% (as you can see in the link) releases and goes for the ball. Again the ref tells him to let it go.
https://youtu.be/56ceQXsXeL0?t=7667

Thoughts about this calls? Is this a problem of ref quality or of Germany not adapting to the ref? How can you defend this better?


Can anyone mark the play situations, but with the Canalina's link? The other doesn't work here, to at least know if we observe the same game actions...the last one is penalty to me, but, I don't know if is the same game situation :oops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuQkSQXdCBc


Canalina wrote:My feeling too was that referees were generally a bit uncertain and not world level in this Challenger series

During Italy v Tonga a dangerous tackle with a 180° turn and a landing of the player on his head, to be possibly sanctioned with a red card, was seen by the referee (and probably by the side assistant) but without taking any decision beyond the simple whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be2ijhU ... u.be&t=710


Look at 0.25 speed ... at most yellow.

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Canalina » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 14:13

Hernan14 wrote:
Canalina wrote:My feeling too was that referees were generally a bit uncertain and not world level in this Challenger series

During Italy v Tonga a dangerous tackle with a 180° turn and a landing of the player on his head, to be possibly sanctioned with a red card, was seen by the referee (and probably by the side assistant) but without taking any decision beyond the simple whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be2ijhU ... u.be&t=710


Look at 0.25 speed ... at most yellow.

Hmm, not agree. I confess that I don't know what exactly the rule says, but also in the italian championship when a player overturns an opponent over the line of the chest or even by 180° like in this case, and without trying to alleviate the effects of the tackle helping the opponent to land safely, it's at least a yellow card. At the World Cup italian Lovotti overturned a southafrican player letting him landing on the head and got a deserved red card, plus three weeks suspension. I admit that probably the tongan fault in Montevideo was not voluntary, but usually in this sort of cases the referees show a card even if the fault seems involuntary. I still think it should have been a red card

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Canalina » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 14:17

Meanwhile Pichot judges the Challenger Series "a total success". Maybe under some aspects it really was, but it seems a bit suspicious that when a WR tournament is organized by his colleagues Pichot finds always something wrong, and when the tournament is ideated by him he judges it "a total success"

https://twitter.com/sudamericarugby/sta ... 8975029250

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Re: 7s Challenger Series

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 25 Feb 2020, 14:38

Canalina wrote:Meanwhile Pichot judges the Challenger Series "a total success". Maybe under some aspects it really was, but it seems a bit suspicious that when a WR tournament is organized by his colleagues Pichot finds always something wrong, and when the tournament is ideated by him he judges it "a total success"

https://twitter.com/sudamericarugby/sta ... 8975029250


Maybe it was from WR's point of view. There has been some criticism of some refereeing decisions, but maybe these are developing referees and they are happy with their performance, with some feedback they can now give. I'm sure they're also happy and relieved that Japan won, because that's what they wanted.
I watched a lot of the series. I thought it was excellent. I don't really have anything bad to say about it.

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